Cathay armylist + Nippon Contingent

[Skandalix]

Special rules:

Massive population: Cathay infantry (only Cathay so not Samurai) can get up to 4 rank bonus instead of normal max 3 rank bonus

Armoury:

Yari Lance- this highly balanced Lance has sharp blade instead of normal spearhead. Which allows to attack with great strenght. During first round of combat this weapon adds +1S bonus and if unit on foot and was static then two ranks can fight but when two ranks fight only first one gains strenght bonus.

Cathay Long Sword- this highly precise and two-handed sword is increadibly swift and every skilled fighter using it can strike with great speed and accuracy. the Longsword adds +1 to wielders WS and I.

Bombs- this is throwing (so no modifiers for long range and move), blackpowder weapon. Range 8" S4, no armour save, if 1 on to hit roll then thrower is hit

Musket- this is fine crafted handgun with range of 24", S4, armour piercing, Move or Fire

Sturded Nippon Armour- those fine armours are weared only by best Nippon fighters and are given from father to son from many years. The armour provides 4+ armour save

Cathay army

Lords:

Khan- Khans are Monkey King's delagates, ruling one of the many provinces of Cathay. They come from noble families and bear the title from ages (there are no new dynasties nominated to be Khans). They are good tacticians teached from the childhood art of war, bow & sword.

…………...............M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Khan..............…4…..6……5….4..4...3....5....4…...9………100
Golden Dragon..6…..6……0….6..6...6....3....5…...8………+320

- can take Light Armour (+3pts), Heavy Armour (+6pts) or Sturded Nippon Armour (+10pts)
- can have a Cathay Long Sword (+6pts), Yari Lance (+6pts)
- may take an Longbow(+15pts) or Musket (+15pts)
- may ride a Warhorse (15pts), Yak (+20pts) Grand Tiger (55pts) or Golden Dragon (320pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 100pts

< Golden Dragon has all rules that other Dragons have: Terror, Fly, Scaly skin (3+) and Breath weapon (S4, armour piercing)>


Sage- Wisdom is very respected and appreciated skill in Far East. The oldest of all Mystics are skilled in almost every discipline. That one thanks to them that Cathay has raised into powerful Empire. They are great mathematics, astronoms, inventors of blackpowder and what's most important great magicians able to use powers of nature into their own uses.
…………...M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Sage..….4….2……3…..3...4..3.....3...1…...8………180

rules: Primal Element (chooses at the start of battle one element from group: water, earth, fire, air. Spells dedicated to that element are cast with +1 to bonus to roll)

- may be upgraded to level 4 for +35 pts
- may ride a Warhorse (15pts) or Yak (+20pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 100pts

Nagga Queen (takes Lord and one hero slot)- Queens of Naggas are good ally of Monkey King. They are powerful creatures but they rarely come out from their breeding caves. If they do then the situation must be very difficult or Nagga kind has its own interest in a conflict. Presence of one of Nagga Queens makes enemy heart to beat faster and scares even the most courageus heros.
………….............M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Nagga Queen…..7…...7….3….5..4...5....5....7…...9………265

rules: Killing Blow, Scaly skin (5+ AS), Fear, Serpent Lord (can join only unit of Naggas, 40x40 base)

- can take Light Armour (+6pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 100pts (except weapons)

Heroes

Genchi- Genchi are sons of Khans prepered from the youngest age to be generals and next Khans. They are loyal and righteous. But also cruel leaders deserving being obeyed.
…………...M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Genchi….4…...5……5….4 4...2.....5..3…...8………50

- may wear either Light Armour (+2pts) or Heavy Armour (+4pts)
- can have a Cathay Long Sword (+4pts), Yari Lance (+4pts)
- may also be armed with a Longbow(+10pts) or Musket (+10pts)
- may ride an Warhorse (10pts), Yak (+14pts) or Grand Tiger (55pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 50pts

Mystic- There are two ways noble child can go. He can become a Warrior or Mystic.If they choose to be a Mystic, they are sent to Monastary in hills where they are learned by Sages many things and secrets. Mystics are probably most intelligent of all Cathaians. They also are introduced to magical art of controling elements.

…………...M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Mystic…..4…..2……3….3 3...2.....3..1…...7………65

rules: Primal Element (chooses at the start of battle one element from group: water, earth, fire, air. Spells dedicated to that element are cast with +1 to bonus to roll)

- may be upgraded to level 2 for +35 pts
- may ride a Warhorse (10pts) or Yak (+14pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 50pts

Geysha- They are Khans or other nobles concubines. Geyshas are a symbol of wealth, beauty and purity in Cathay. Although they don't fight they often are present on battlefield encouraging all warriors which very often fight bearing their names in mind. They are a dream of every villager and citizen.
…………...M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Geysha..4…..2……3….3..3...2.....3..1…...7………45

rules: Presence of Geysha (Geysha counts just as BSB but takes no magical banner, instead she may buy one of four Flower Aspects with no points limit, if she takes aspect than she may not take magical items, oponent gains extra 100VP for killing Geysha model just as for capturing enemy BSB)

- may be take one Flower Aspects: Rose (units in 12" gain +1 to CR)+100pts; Cherry-flower (units in 12" get +1WS on charge) +25pts; Jasmine (units in 12" may re-roll rallying tests) +40pts; Lily (enemy must pass Ld test each time he wants to charge and/or attack Geysha) +10pts
- may ride a Warhorse (10pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 50pts

Core:

Cathay Recruits- When Cathay army goes for a battle they always recruit soldiers from surrounding villages. The recruits are taken brutaly from their homes and given just basical training. They are teached how to maintain formation and wield Yari Lance but are rather poor fighters. The best advantage of that kind of troop is the low cost. Thousands of those henchmen can be recruited for the campaign with really minimal costs.
…………..............M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Cathay Recruit..4…...2……3….3..3...1....3..1…...7………6
Trainer.............4…...2……3….3..3...1....3..2…...7………
US:10+
Weapons & Armour: Yari Lance

- may wear Light Armour +1pts/model
- Standard +10pts, Musician +5pts, Trainer +10pts

Kagari Warriors- These are profesional warriors used for keeping peace in province. They are well armed by Khan himself with Longswords and scale armours. Sometimes during the battle they change longswords for yari lances which work better against mounted enemies.
…………..............M…WS…BS…S…T….W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Kagari Warrior….4…..3……3….3..3...1....3....1…...7………7
Dachi...............4…..3……3….3..3...1....3....2…...7………
US: 10+
Weapons & Armour: Cathay Long Sword, Light Armour

- may wear Heavy Armour +1pts/model
- may change Cathay Long Sword for Yari Lance +1pts/model
- Standard +10pts, Musician +5pts, Dachi +10pts
- may take magical banner worth up to 25pts

Ungol Horse Archers- the Northern steppes of Ungolia are inhabited by nomadic tribe called Ungols. They are experts of two disciplines: horse riding & archery. From the youngest age children are accustomed to ride in original saddle and teached to shoot from the horseback. They are probably best Human fast cavalry in Old World. Their tactic is to shoot with great accuracy and runaway they reapeat that until enemy morale falls down.
………….................M…WS….BS…S…T….W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Ungol Archer…......4…...3……4….3..3...1....3....1…...7………17
Ungol Bow Master.4…...3……5….3..3...1....3....1…...7
Warhorse…..........8…...3……0….3..3...1....3....1…...3
US: 5+
Rules: Fast Cavalry
Weapons & Armour: Bow, Hand weapon

- may wear Light Armour +1pts/model
- Standard +12pts, Musician +6pts, Ungol Bow Master +6pts

Cathay Bowmen- Archers are used mainly for protecting city and fortresses walls in Cathay. They are not learned to fight in ranked formation. But although are very good harassing unit.
…………................M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Cathay Bowman…4…..3……3….3..3...1....3...1…...7………9
Bow Master.........4…..3……4….3..3...1....3...1…...7………
US:10+
Rules: Skirmish
Weapons & Armour: Longbow, Light Armour

- may wear Heavy Armour +1pts/model
- Musician +5pts, Bow Master +5pts

Pyrotechnics- those are the crazed men which are sickly fascinated by blackpowder power. They love blowing up things. They're so fooled that they don't care even about their lives when carring smouldering bombs!
…………..........M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Pyrotechnic…4…..3……3….3..3...1....3...1…...7………10
US:5+
Rules: Skirmish
Weapons & Armour: Bombs, Hand weapon

Yak Riders- from the northern hills are brough bad-tempered beasts called yaks. They are used by local tribes as transporting mount because they are strong and resistant for even very low temperatures but furious Yak also a very dangerous sight. There are few things in the Old World that can stop charging mass of that furry creature!
………….................M…WS….BS…S…T…W....I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Yak Rider…..........4…...3……3….3..3...1....3....1…...7………21
Fur-hanger..........4…...3……3….3..3...1....3....2…...7
Yak…..................6…...3……0….4..4...1....2....2…...3
US: 5+
Rules: Thick-skinned, Impale (Yak mounts are +1S on charge)
Weapons & Armour: Hand weapon, Light Armour

- Standard +14pts, Musician +7pts, Fur-hanger 14pts

Special:

Musketeers- the latest invention of muskets amazed Monkey King. He saw potential of that weapon and started to create musketeer units armed with those 'deadly sticks'. These troops are not so popular nowaydas but soon will dominate Cathain army.
…………..........M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Musketeer.…4…..3……3….3..3...1....3...1…...7………9
Arquebuser..4…..3……4….3..3...1....3...1…...7………
US:10+
Weapons & Armour: Musket

- Standard +12pts, Musician +6pts, Arquebuser +6pts

Monkey Monks- in closed monastery in high hills of Cathay there live Monkey Monks. They are masters of fighting with bare hands. Adepts of secret combat art called "Kung Lao". Without any armour nor dangerous weapons they are killing machines on a battlefield. They jump, high kick, walk on hands and make acrobatic moves. This all looks like a drunken monkey dance but is very maiming for enemy. They also are one of the most zealous cultists of Monkey God. They are even blessed by their gods- they have monkey tail...
………….............M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Monkey Monk…4…..4……3….3..3...1....4...2…...7………12
Zealot.............4…..5…..3….3..3...1....3...3…...7………
US: 10+
Rules: Dextrous (-1 to hit in both CC and shooting), Clear Minds (immune to fear/terror and panic), Precise blows (may re-roll to wound rolls in first round of close combat)
Weapons & Armour: mainly they fight with fists and feet or sticks but for game reasons count as having Hand Weapons

- Standard +14pts, Musician +7pts, Zealot +16pts
- may take magical banner worth up to 50pts

Naggas- inhabitants of southern lands. Those creatures are gigantic half women half serpents with four arms. Their in some way attracting beaty doesn't compare to deadly skills of that beasts. Carrying carved blades in each hand they strike with increadible speed and strength able even to cut a man in half.
………….......M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Nagga....…7…..4……3….4..4...3....5....4…...8………70
US: 3+ (40x40 bases)
Rules: Killing Blow, Scaly skin (5+ AS), Fear

Fireworks Launcher (2 may be taken as one special slot)-
………….................M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Firework Laucher….-…..-……-…..-..7...3....-....-…....-………80
Crew….................4…..2……3….3..3...1....3...1…...7………
US: Fireworks Laucher + 2 Crew
Rules: Fireworks Launcher (3" template, S3, -1 to armour save, -1 Ld for panic tests, other rules as for Empire Mortar)
Crew: Hand weapon

Rare:

Grand Tiger (2 may be taken per one rare slot)-in southern jungles live most feared among villagers creature- Grand Tiger. Those are said are perfect predators, hunting deers and humans with no difference. Sometimes they are catched in wild and released hungry on a battlefield where they can create a real massacre. Also if they were captured as young kittens they can be Khans or Genchi mounts.
…………..............M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Grand Tiger....…8…..5……0….4..4...3....5....3…...8………55
(40x40 bases)
Rules:Hungry Predator (each time he can charge must do Ld test or have to do that, also test is needed if wants to pursue, may never overrun), Fear


Dragon Steel Cannon- Huge Cannon sculpted into form of Dragon. For normal man from distance it may look as living creature spitting iron balls which crush everything what they touch.
…………........................M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Dragon Steel Cannon….-…..-……-…..-..7...3....-....-…....-………110
Crew…........................4…..2……3…3..3...1....3...1…...7………
US: Dragon Steel Cannon + 3 Crew
Rules: Great Cannon, Fear
Crew: Hand weapon

Paghoda Temple Gong - sometimes Monks carry on a battlefield the Paghoda Gong. It's a kind of religious altar for Cathaian people. Different gong beats influent warriors with new strenghts.
…………..........................M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Paghoda Temple Gong….-…..-……-…..-..-...-....-....-…....-………210
Monkey Monk….............4…..4……3….3..3...1....4...2…...7………
US: Gong + 3 Monkey Monks (unmovable; randomize shooting: 5+ Monks, hits against Gong are ignored)
Rules: If any result other then Silence then Gong causes Terror, Sanctuary (Monkey Monks guardians have ward save 4+)Paghoda Gong(roll two dices at start of every turn to check the effect; affects to all units in 24"; see below) Aura of Precision (all Monkey Monks in range of Gong can always re-roll to wound, not only during first round)
Monkey Monks have Clear Mind, Precise blow,
Monkey Monks: Hand weapon

1-3 Silence- no effect
4-5 Call for the Heroes- Characters & unit champions may re-roll to hit (also for shooting)
6-7 Inner Calmness- +1Ld to all Psychology tests (except break)
8-9 Haste Beat- +D3" towards enemy at start of movement phase
10-11 Evil Heart-beat- all enemy mounted models (in range) take panic test
12 Wonderful Beat- all the effects

Nippon Contingent

Rules: all the Kislev Contingent rules apply, also all Nippon units may be taken in Chaos (mortals, Undivided or Tzeentch), DE (not CoS), Empire, Chaos Dwarfs, Lizardmen as rare DoW

Lords

Shogun- Shogun are clan leaders. Swearing their lives for fighting. They are honorous and powerrful fighters. They carry a burden of leading best of Nipponian warriors. They don't accept losing and the only way of leaving lost battle is as a dead man.
…………......M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Shogun..…4…..6……5….5..4...3...6....4…...9………175
Rules: Bushido Honor (Character and any unit he joins is Stubborn and Immune to Panic, if in any moment character is fleeing then he commits suicide; count him as dead, enemy gains VP points)
Weapons & Armour: Cathay Long Sword, Sturded Nippon Armour

- can change Cathay Long Sword for Yari Lance (+6pts)
- may take an Longbow(+15pts)
- may ride a Warhorse (15pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 100pts

Heros:

Sensei- minor Samurai clan leaders
…………......M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Sensei...…4…..5……5….5..4...2....5...3…...8………110
Rules: Bushido Honor (Character and any unit he joins is Stubborn and Immune to Panic, if in any moment character is fleeing then he commits suicide; count him as dead, enemy gains VP points)
Weapons & Armour: Cathay Long Sword, Sturded Nippon Armour

- can change Cathay Long Sword for Yari Lance (+4pts)
- may take an Longbow(+10pts)
- may ride a Warhorse (10pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 50pts

Master Ninjaio- Experts of stalking and murdering, they are best chosen assassins which are used from time to time to eliminateenemy general or disturbing person in palace. They don't accept honorous way of Samurai and are rather traitorous. Are able to fight for everyone who pays more..
…………................M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Master Ninjaio...…5…..6……5….4..4...2....6...3…...9………
Rules: Stalker (may be hidden as DE Assassin in any Cathay or Nippon infantry unit but not skirmishing, may be scout and be deployed even closer then 10" OR 10" away from enemy but in LOS), Dextrous, Precise blow (see Monkey Monks rule), Shuriken Expert (may throw as many throwing stars per turn as he has attacks)
Weapons & Armour: Hand Weapon, Throwing stars

- can have Cathay Long Sword (+4pts) or Additional hand weapon (+4pts)
- may take Common or Eastern magic items worth up to 50pts

Special:

Samurai- Those are proud defenders of Nippon Isles. Allies of Monkey King. Honorous warriors which have sacrificed their lives for fighting. In their country they are respected and wealthy nobles but they found only joy in battling so in times of peace in Nippon they fight in even far countries of Cathaian legends as Merceneries.
…………......M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Samurai.…4…..4……3….4..4..1....4....2…...8………18
Doyo.....…4…..4……3….4..4..1....4.....3…...8………
US: 10+
Weapons & Armour: Cathay Long Sword, Sturded Nippon Armour

- can change Cathay Long Sword for Yari Lance (+2pts)
- Standard +16pts, Musician +*pts, Doyo +16pts
- may take magical banner worth up to 50pts

Mounted Samurai- <fluff soon>
…………......M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Samurai.…4…..4……3….4..4..1....4....2…...8………34
Doyo.....…4…..4……3….4..4...1....4....3…...8………
Warhorse.8…...3….0….3..3...1....3....1…...3
US: 5+
Weapons & Armour: Cathay Long Sword, Sturded Nippon Armour

- can change Cathay Long Sword for Yari Lance (+1pts)
- Standard +16pts, Musician +8pts, Doyo +16pts
- may take magical banner worth up to 50pts

Rare:

Ninjaio Squad- Experts of stalking and murdering, they are best chosen assassins which are used from time to time to eliminateenemy general or disturbing person in palace. They don't accept honorous way of Samurai and are rather traitorous. Are able to fight for everyone who pays more..
…………..............M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld….points/model
Ninjaio.…..........5…..5……4….4..3..1....5.....1…...8………17
Death-dealer..…5…..5……4….4..3..1....5.....2…...8………
US: 3+
Rules: Scout, Skirmish, Dextrous, Precision blow, Shuriken Expert, Traitorous muderers (no character other than Master Ninjaio can join Ninjaio squad)
Weapons & Armour: Two hand weapons, Throwing stars

- Death-Dealer +18pts


Elemental Magic

For checking which spells wizard has roll 2D6 for each of his spells:

2- no spell learned
3- Burning Steel (Fire)- 8+: 12", RiP; one findly unit has magical/flamming attacks with armour piercing
4- Flood (Water)- 8+: 18" LOS, enemy unit has to move as threw swanmpy terrain (half Movement) lasts until next Cathay magic phase
5- Stone Skin (Earth)- 7+: 12", RiP; target friendly unit has +1 Armour save
or gains 6+ AS
6- Airwalk (Air)- 8+; 18" target frindly unit may move through difficult or impassable tearrain (if so must end movement out of impassable)object without movement penalty
7- Fire Bow (Fire)- 5+; target character in 12" may shoot 5 times in shooting phase from magicaly created bow. It has magical/burning arrows with S5 and has range of 24" (normal restriction for shooting apply: LOS, range penalty, -1 to hit after move etc)
8- Freezing Coldness (Water)- 7+; RiP, 18" enemy unit halve its WS & BS
9- Earthshake (Earth)- 10+; LOS, place a epicentre marker anywhere in 24" every unit in 6" radious from marker takes D6 S4 hits
10- Tornado (Air)- 11+; RiP, LOS, 18" place a 3" teplate in range, every model hit 4+ if partialy hit makes S test or is outright sucked into the whirl (count as dead) at start of each players round tornado teplate moves 2D6" in random direction and again any model hit has to make S test
11- Summon Elemental (depends from elemental called)- 11+, RiP, 12" Elementalist summons Elemental Apparition anywhere in 12", if spell is dispelled or in any way has ended Elemental disapears. Elemental can normaly charge in the next friendly turn
………….....................M…WS…BS…S…T…W..…I…..A…..Ld
Water Elemental.…...6…..4……0….4..5...3....5....3…...8
Earth Elemental.…....5…..4……0….4..5...3....2....3…...8
Fire Elemental.…......6…..4……0….4..5...3....5....4…...8
Air Elemental.…........6…..4……0….4..5...3....6....3…...8
Rules: all are Unbreakable and cause Fear, Water: move without penalty through any terrain and is -1 to hit in CC, Earth: Armour save 3+, Fire: flamming attacks, armour piercing, Air: can Fly, -1 to shooting

12- choose from the list one spell

Eastern magical items:

Daemon Mask (Ench)- wearer causes fear (15pts)

Staff of Control (Arc)- bearer maintains automatically one RiP in round(20pts)

Drunken Monkey Banner (Ban)- unit is -1 to hit from shooting, machines always scatter (50pts)

Furious Tiger Banner (Ban)- unit gains hatred (50pts)

Skunk Banner (Ban)- enemy unit must roll 4+ to pursue unit banner works before throwing away flag when fleeing (25pts)

Golden Nightingale (Tal)- bearer has 3+ ward save, if any ward save failed then item ends working (30pts)

Overseeing Kite (Ench)- bearer can see as Large Target (10pts)

Bow of Quai-jin (weap)- Longbow, 30"range; bearer may fire # number of shoots per round where # is number of attacks (15pts)

Decapitator Sword (weap)- Two-handed; Killing blow, each succesful wound from KB lowers roll for KB next time (so if one KB wound dealt then KB is on 5+, 2 KB wounds=next KB on 4+!! can be increased up to 3+) (45pts)

Sword of Legend (weap)- Cathay Long Sword; Always Strike First, Killing Blow (60pts)

Soulsucker (weap)- for each wound causes bearer may add +1 point to WS, BS, S or T up to 6 (30pts)

Koshi Lance (weap)- Yari Lance; one additional attack for each enemy model in B2B, one use only (35pts)

Obsidianus Stars (weap)- Throwing stars, wound automatically (40pts)

Mystical Pergamon (Arc)- may roll extra dice per casting one spell and take away the lowest result (can nullify miscast), one use only (15pts)

Ancestors Gaes (Arc)- bound spell, power level 4, casts one random spell from Elemental spell list (roll each round, 2- item exhausted, 12- choose any) (40pts)

Ronin Mark (Tal)- character may not be General, and may not join any unit, Immune to psychology, re-roll all to hit and to wound in first round of combat (25pts)

Granite Armour (Arm)- counts as Heavy Armour; character -1 M (do not affect mount),WS & I, armour save 1+ (can't be better) (25pts)


Soon I will add fluff & two more units... one elite infantry in rares and one more core troop... also in the future Southern Tzeentch Cult list option will be applied and new Magical Items...Pliz tell me what are your opinions...[

[Druchiishootlord]

How much play testing have you put into this because it seems alright. the one thing i don't really find too right is the fact taht the contingent can be taken wiht so many different armies. I'd restrict those a bit, and i'd add some more magic items. The magic is pretty unique, which is cool.

[Skandalix]

Actually I didn't do any playtesting...I just wrote it yesterday night Nippon Contingent can be taken as 'contingent' only for Cathaty army... other armies can take them as DoW.. Items will be added soon.. and of cousrse some playtesting should be appreciated so if anyone has time i will be thankful...

[Voodoomaster]

well i like this very very nice. however for the golden dragon i would change it something, in mystic chinese mythology their dragons only had small wings. i would limit their flying to a low glide so perhaps limit it 15" fly. i also like the nagga's very very fantasy. aside from that a very very nice list there i hope you have every success with it.

[Moonblade]

Woah.. Man you are very full with ideas, huh...
I have just answered to your kislev topic and now see this.. Well my eyes ache now and I wond be able to read it the whole.
I only wish to ask if there are rules for cathay/Nippon so far,somewhere

[Skandalix]

No... GW seems to forget about that part of Old World... they are rather lazy...and they have wasted such good fluff... Hope it will change in the future, but GW team is threating that there will be no more armies because shops complain that too many different blisters and boxes they have to have on stock and that's not economic... Capitalism also touched our dear game..ehh

[Evilzealot]

Way too many special rules.

For some reason their handguns are the best in the world, they have the best spears in the world, the best handweapon, the best throwing weapon and the best armor? How do you explain this? They are just human afterall...

The SkunkBanner is useless. When you flee from combat you drop the banner your carrying, so there is nothing stopping the enemy from pursuing.

Obsidianus Stars (weap)- Throwing stars, wound automatically (40pts)

What rules for Throwing Stars are you using?

A Nagga Queen with the Ronin Mark and Granite armor would be way too good in close combat, and relatively cheap. She would kill units easily.

Lastly the magic system is broken. It doesnt fit in with the other spells in the game, especially since you can roll "no spell learned" or "Choose from the list". Not every army requires their own spell lore, and Fire/Heavens/Metal would give a similar range of spells as to what you have already written.

These are just the biggest problems I've seen. There are countless balancing issues (a yak rider army would demolish infantry, all the archers in the army are skirmished... etc)

[Skandalix]

First of all I'm glad you critisized it and you are right in some ways... That's what i neede mobilizing critics...

Way too many special rules.
For some reason their handguns are the best in the world, they have the best spears in the world, the best handweapon, the best throwing weapon and the best armor? How do you explain this? They are just human afterall...

I agree they are only humans...and they have humans stats.... but from all humans they were (are in WFB) best craftsmen as far as i know. Katana swords (Cathay Long Sword) are best example... Have you seen Yari Lance?? It looks extremly different from 'typical' spear... i think it's fair that it has unique rules too... best t6horiwng weapon?? which one?? Bombs?? And who invented blackpowder- Chineses!!!!! Muskets are better than Handguns...true but you pay two hard points more for just range!! and armour..pliz don't tell me they have best armour best AS in army is 3+.... they even don't know shields!!!! My line of defence is...yes they have quite nice weapons but still having humans stats... so its not beardy IMO...but I as showing i'm flexible i've edited few things... decreased range of Muskets... give +1S to Yari Lance only for first rank in first round...

The SkunkBanner is useless. When you flee from combat you drop the banner your carrying, so there is nothing stopping the enemy from pursuing.

you throw your banner when fleeing but before you threw that magic can stop enemy from pursuing... for me it's quite clear..but added note...

What rules for Throwing Stars are you using?

i don't get the question?? Throwing stars: range 8", no penalty for moving nor range, S=S of the user... Something wrong??

A Nagga Queen with the Ronin Mark and Granite armor would be way too good in close combat, and relatively cheap. She would kill units easily.

Nagga Queen can't wear Granite armour...she's only allowed to take LA so she can't wear heavy one even if its magical... and even if she could so what?? she's still T4...so vulnerable to shootiing... It's similar like Druchii Anoited for similar cost...

Lastly the magic system is broken. It doesnt fit in with the other spells in the game, especially since you can roll "no spell learned" or "Choose from the list". Not every army requires their own spell lore, and Fire/Heavens/Metal would give a similar range of spells as to what you have already written.

yes you may be right...i wanted to create Lore which don't base on dealing wounds or disallowing enemy to do something but which will strenghten own units and have many RiP spells..it's not playtested so may be very broken...just someone should check it...

a yak rider army would demolish infantry

Do you really think so?? WS3, AS 4+, T3...they have no greater potential then CoK (wounding better, mounts S4 always)

all the archers in the army are skirmished... etc)

true and what are you gonna say about actual WE?? maybe they don't have all skirmish archers but those units of 5 are just ridiculous and all other units are skirmish....Also Empire army can have all skirmish archers too..and and nobody calls it cheesey...

I'm open for debating so any more arguments??

[The_unforgiven]

This seems wonderfull.
if only GW would release those...
anyway your list is nice and balanced

[Aldebrandludenhof]

Hiya. I've been a lurker here for some time and have been eyeing this thread for a while..

I'm the admin of a rules development site called The Hammer and Anvil (H&A), borne in the mess of post-SoC CoL. We've been going 8 months now, and passed the 200 member mark a little while back. Anyway, the foundation project that kicked off the site was a Nippon project by myself and a guy called Squirrel Nutkins, who was the official mascot of the forces of light

Therefore...I guess you might be interested in this link:
http://www.lightalliance.co.uk/hammer/viewtopic.php?t=6

It isn't by any means done. It's underpowered, the fluff isn't all done yet, and the magic list needs much modifying. But then spell lores are very difficult full stop.

There are a few other Nippon or Cathayan projects hanging around the army lists board....any chance you'd like to add another? Of these, the most distinguished are said Nippon list, and a 3 year long Cathay project that we are promised very soon....we shall see.....anyway, yours may still surpass it, I wouldn't be too daunted

To comment on your Nipponese here; leaving aside fluff (Shoguns as clan leaders?), why are your samurai T4? T4 humans are definitely not an option.

Why allow Cathayan Longswords? This presumes that what is basicaly an excellent sword is better than an elven sword (which is...basicaly an excellent sword..) Cathayan Longswords were a terrible blunder by GW, I have no idea what they were thinking....but a sword is a hand weapon, and unless elven weapons aquire new special rules this item is inconsistent and should not be encouraged.


Finally a quick note on muskets - what's the difference from a handgun?

[Skandalix]

First of all answering AldebrandLudenhof@
- Humans with T4?? yes...just see Empire Flagellants...Chaos Warriors are also humans..but changed by Chaos... I wanted to be Samurais very elite warriors (they were probably best fighters of all world) so that's why their stats are close to those of heroes...their cost i think is high but they are worth it...
- Cathain Swords... if Ogres have them then it must be allowed in Cathay!!!! At least because how its called...it wasn't up to me... I'm also against...
- Muskets don't differ... it had range 30" but after people complaints I change it into normal 24" but left the name...
- Shoguns are clan leaders coz its fantasy...i know they were rather something like count-generals in Japan provinces during time of interregnum..but don't wanted to just copy history...


I looked through your nipponian list...I didn't read it all but think you've made a big work in that and it's a great work. Especially i liked the fluff (very precise). Although I came with few things:
1. It's very historical (no or minor fantasy elements) there's only two fantasy unit- Kirin and Sea Dragon. And carring historical facts into WFB can be risky and coz first of all it's a fantasy game
2. It has many, comlicated rules... many people while rating my lists were always complaining that i'm giving too many special rules for the army.. GW gives two, max three and enough...in yours every unit has some special rules (if not then carry special weapon) this can be disturbing and might cuse conflicts (one of the most popular as you mentioned is why elven weapons don't give bonuses and cathaian/nipponian do)
3. I think there are too many great combos (yeah there are combos for armies but few) and cost of couple of items are underpriced

I was amazed by the amount of heart& work you've put into that list so i really appreciate that. After reading your list i catched brainwave and had many new ideas... maybe you would like to coperate with me and work toghether to make it perfect??;)

[Aldebrandludenhof]

A while back a site called "The Nippon Temple" was set up. Mainly based around my list (which I am rather proud of, though it is still far from my finished vision...in truth it isn't the most competitive army, as evidenced by comparing my wonderful record with my very fluffy empire army with my woeful record in Nippon test games, a run continued with the battle with lizzies I just wrote up), it was designed for really anyone interested in Nippon in fluff, rules, models, whatever, to gather together and exchange ideas.

This project had to subside soon into it, as I became distracted with an attempt to save CoL, sadly cut short in the end as is well enough known now. But I hope to resurrect it fairly soon, at the same time as I unleash upon the world a rather fuller piece of fluff on religion in Nippon. Anyway, I'd be delighted if you'd join that site when it gets up and running, and am sure you'd be a valued member.

On the comments you make on the list, - heard it all before - not to say I disagree though. Great combos? It's true. A lot of things need ironing out. Historical? It's a matter of taste I guess. Mu-nyu is actualy a Korean term, but most of the inspiration came off critical hit - a poor source some say, and indeed I'm redrafting both history and map to be updated....but I find it a solid starting point. Anyway, I think the list is alright as it is, and want to polish off all fluff so that a temporary complete set of fluff and army list for Nippon is available, before commencing a more complete revision, when other people's participation is rather more wanted. What I want to do first really is make this....more ravening hordes than army book, a get-you-by list + fluff.

As for complicated rules, it's really not as bad as it might seem. But I know what you mean, and have had the same issues raised. Indeed, seeing this list for the first time it would be my instinct. I can only assure you that the complications have been pared down since draft 1 (alas that the origins of the list on CoL were lost with the site) and that in the big review of the list it would be nice if still more streamlining could be done.


In answer to the points on your list:
T4 humans? Chaos Warriors are hardly human, and flagellants need to look special. I guess it depends on your conception of Nippon. For me, I took KotR as the Old World model for samurai.
That you share my view on Cathayan longswords does wonders for the esteem I hold you in The reason I ignore them even though GW has made them now is in hope that GW will realise the error of their ways one day and change back this dreadful mistake...
Muskets - and you say I'm being complicated? Seriously, ok, I was just checking that I wasn't reading something wrong...
...and finally on Shoguns - fair enough, this is the product of the wfrp inspiration that includes a historical-style shogun already.

The timeline in the list incidentally is my creation.

Anyways...I hope to go through your Cathay work when I have the time. Though I also have TINSs Cathay list to go through as I promised....

[Shinobi]

if in any moment character is fleeing then he commits suicide; count him as dead, enemy gains VP points

LOL
That's quite a handy, in case your lord survieves from combat he just lost, he kills himself and enemy gets victory points!
You're a genius man!

[Xizor]

GW gives two, max three and enough...

Heh, Skan man, you've obviously never seen the Stegadons unit entry!!!

[Valorian the merciless]

about the Cathayen longswords:

as they are only available to the ogres,it isn't such a big mistake made by gw.

I mean, look at it this way:

Ogres use big heavy clubs or crude cimitars most of the time.
By performing valuable services they are granted LONGswords by the cathayen population.

they are lighter than a club (+1initiative)

they are more designed for combat then the clubs they normally use so the ogre discovers that their skill is increasing (+1 weapon skill)

and the amount of muscle from the ogre combined with the well forged blade (-1 armour save)

What i'm trying to say is that the longsword idea was more developed for the ogres.

And that when Nippon/Cathay is becoming a real idea than a simple name change is easily realised. (cathayen blade for example)

anyway I saw the list and though the idea is nice some things need a bit more thought:

-massive population= what's up with that?
I mean sure they had a large population in the real history,

but in the fantasy world the horde armies should get this rule and not a human force, they could never match the forces of skaven or Orcs& goblins.

-as the list is now the player has way to much choice:
Strong monsters, strong artillery, lots of infantry and enough choice in the cavalry section.
I mean, what's the army's biggest weakness?
they are a bit like empire only way better with the option of a dragon and ogre-sized units in the character and special choices. ,

A player could get a dragon and cannons in one army.
THAT'S JUST EVIL! maybe some additional rules that would disallow extreme combinations of monsters, artillery, infantry and cavalry.

Although not all is wrong
(really like the Geisha rules, and the fluff has potential)

it looks really interesting but it isn't done yet, you should playtest it a lot against every army in the game.

[Lord doyok]

dear Valorian.. the bonus for cathayan sword is not becase it is wield by ogres, it is because of the blade itself. the blade's design itself that granted all the bonus.

[Valorian the merciless]

at first don't call me dear
(it's freaken me out )

and second you should read the ogre fluff from their army book, it really explains that the enormous longsword combined with the ogre's art of breaking heads gives rise to the bonusses of the weapon

[Lord doyok]

lol..
anyway.. i'll look back to the book later..

[Skandalix]

...and why should Ogre art of crushing skulls increase their I and WS????? they crush it faster as others?? I think that's only blades skill...it's just much lighter than sword and same effective

[Lord doyok]

Malevion said;

and second you should read the ogre fluff from their army book, it really explains that the enormous longsword combined with the ogre's art of breaking heads gives rise to the bonusses of the weapon

no.. you get that wrong Malevion. The fluff tells us two things about cathayan longsword.
i. these legendary longsword was of great value to the ogres because these master-crafted blade remains eternally sharp.
ii. with the strength of the ogres, these blade can cause lots of mess

then underneath the fluff is the rules for the blade.
i. it is so finely-crafted that it confers +1WS and +1I.
ii. It is also armor piercing.

the way you should see it is like this:
fluff i -> rules no i
fluff ii -> rules no ii
rules i was clearly stated in the rulebook. Read carefully.
fluff ii talks about strength of ogres. how come strength affect WS and I? strength bonus had always usually been about armor saves modifier after all. And thinking ogres, it's the same as with Ogre Club.

have a nice day..

[Valorian the merciless]

okay okay, you're right (sheesh, some people have way to much time on their hands )

But you don't have to be so childish about it with your "have a nice day" and intentional missspelling of my name

imo, I wasn't that far wrong, I mean the longswords are only available for the ogre-elite (characters and the veteran-man eaters) who have to be very skilled to use such a weapon.

right?

oh come on, throw me a friggin bone here

[Lord doyok]

have a nice day's just something that came in mind when i write it coz it's
6-7am (my time) when i wrote that post... don't mean to kid u or anything
sorry bout that name though... guess i'm pretty sleepy to realize my mistake. believe it or not.. it's not intentional so have heart will ya..

imo, I wasn't that far wrong, I mean the longswords are only available for the ogre-elite (characters and the veteran-man eaters) who have to be very skilled to use such a weapon.

that's right... after all, the greatest ogre rules.

to my thinking, there should only be a small number of cathayan longsword in the world. These sword were said to be legendary coz they remains sharp. they are also described as gift for good merits(fighting prowess, heroic deeds, etc) by the ogres. the keyword here is legendary and gift, meaning common soldiers shouldn't have these weapon for free. also, the weapon should be something that cannot be bought from any simple blacksmith in cathay. what common cathay soldiers have access to is probably is a copy/replica of such legendary blade. fluffwise, to produce a sword as such that never dulls, surely it requires very high skilled mastersmith which of course can be numbered. not to mention the material needed to construct such item. that i think is why only elite ogres have accss to cathayan longswords in ogre list. the weapon should be that rare..

[Aldebrandludenhof]

If there's one topic we've done to death on H&A more than any other it's probably Cathayan Longswords. Spears and Halberds are good contenders, but those swords have to win the title.

I don't know if I have the heart to pen every reason they shouldn't exist. Valorian's explanation is the only good explanatation I can think of for them. In which case I wish they'd made that clearer.

[Valorian the merciless]

oops, than it's just a little misunderstanding, Lord Doyok

let us pretend nothing has happened.

and AldebrandLudenhof:

thanks

[Draknir]

that is really nice, and i mean it. i have also been inventing a cathay army, but they were elves... the Blood Elves of Cathay. they had a war machine called the Dragon's Breath Flame Thrower. It was huge dragon-shaped monstrosity that throws burning oil to the enemies. And there was also a rocket battery.(the chinese invented the fireworks, too)