bogging down dwarfs with magic

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:04 am

My friend is conveinced that dwarfs can't be veaten with a magic army. I am dead set to prove him wrong.
But being new to druchii (ogre kingdoms didn't have much magic) I don't know how to make a good magic heavy list.
So here is my challenge,
What is a good list for 2000-3000 pts. that uses a lot of magic and can kill dwarfs dead?

Khel · Post by **Khel** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:32 am

Your friend is partly correct. It is very hard to use magic to an advantage against dwarves. They are just too resistant to the stuff. Plus we have access to spells which wouldn't do much damage to them IMO.

If my memory serves me correctly, I remember something along the lines of Dwarves generating Two dispel dice. Give that too a gun line/ anti magic Dwarf army and you got one hard army to defeat with magic.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:45 am

Actually Chill Wind and dominion are awesome spells against them, stops them from shooting. Its worked for me and let me get into their ranks. All I used was 2 lvl 2 Sorceressess.

If you really want to go Magic heavy, go High Sorceress lvl 4, and 2 lvl 2s, and a Noble.

Bad beast · Post by **Bad beast** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:47 am

honestly it depends upon the dwarf list, if it's the ohh so typical Thorek gunline it's difficult to magic it to death, he has 7 dispel dice before taking any rune smiths, and scrolls, so your likely looking at a minimum of 8 dispel dice and 2 scrolls against any list with an anvil

Khel · Post by **Khel** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:00 am

Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:Actually Chill Wind and dominion are awesome spells against them

That's if you get them off at all

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:35 am

he varies his list, usually two gunner units and a cannon or two (bolt throwers as well) He values defence, makes rune combinations that make it hard to kill thanes. I haven't seen exactly how much dispel dice he gets, but 7 sounds right.
I had a loose idea of having the lvl 4 wizard and 2 lvl 2's, with some shades too distract him and CoK and executioners to hit him hard. I'm not looking for magic to be the only element of my list, just having the right spells to hinder him.

would DoW wizards make it overkill?

Bad beast · Post by **Bad beast** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:06 am

you can't take DoW Characters in a non DoW army (unless your talking about a dark emissary, which i never advocate taking)

Krupp · Post by **Krupp** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:36 pm

Your buddy is right, magic is not a good choice against Dwarves. The fundamental problem is that to use magic properly you gotta be outside CC but within 24". This means your in optimal organ gun/ (hopefully you'll never have to experience this...) Flame cannon range.

If the dwarf knows your going to bring magic he can easily shut the magic phase down and has all kinds of runes that do this well.

Kefka · Post by **Kefka** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:03 pm

Man organ guns are stupid good! and when they have that upgrade that let's em re-roll artillery dice, the guy never rolls less than an 8!
here's the latest quote from him on dwarfs and magic:
"Hey, dwarfs have pletty of good stuff, but theirs things that they just can't do, like use magic."
"Yay, but that doesn't matter cause as you said, they have so much anti-magic that no one else can either."

Nightblade183 · Post by **Nightblade183** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:11 pm

Ok I have beaten Dwarfs a few times with Double Manti Magic List (check hall of fame for ideas) but just make sure you take a lot of fast units so that you get to him with minimal shooting casualties. I'd suggest a screen of 4 DR units as core and then a Lvl 4 on a Peggy or Manti with 3 Lvl 2's if you really want to go Magic heavy. Put the Lvl 2's in different units of 14 spearmen with no command and get some hard hitting cold ones as well as harpies and shades to distract him.

Krupp · Post by **Krupp** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:24 pm

Manticore against Dwarves? Beware the Rune of Challange.
A friend of mine built, imo, the ultimate Dwarf list at 2K(no anvil).
Flame Cannon, Organ gun, rock thrower w/ rune of seeking, 2 bolt throwers w/ engineers, 20 Ironbreakers w/ BSB Thane w/ fear and double unit strength runes, 20 Longbeards w/ DeathProof Thane w/ rune of challange, 20 warriors, 10 slayers and a Dragon slayer w/ ASF, +1 to hit and +1A and 10 thunderers.

Only luck can beat this list, I win about 1 in 3 games with a Dark Elf list tailored to fight this and it really comes down to him getting unluckly. Enough shooting to wipe out almost everything by turn 3 and combat units that no single Dark elf unit has a hope of breaking on thier own.

Dark Riders can't hurt most dwarf units with shooting and charging them into CC is just giving easy combat points away.

Magic is really not an option. Where would you put the sorceress? In a unit, the unit becomes a fire magnet and won't last long. On a pegases, shes gonna get a rock or bolt in the face.

Best bet is take as many fast units as you can. Don't bother with any infantry except for corsairs. Monsters arn't a bad idea even if they don't make it past turn 2. My Hydra can usually absorb at least 1 organ volley.

Good Luck and try to win before your buddy buys more war machines.

Black corsair · Post by **Black corsair** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:28 pm

Most of my fantasy games have been against a Dwarf player....and I would say that we are 50-50 on wins and losses against each other. When playing him I take as much magic as possible and massive units of infantry plus fast shooting.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:29 am

with only 5 warmachines and 10 thunderers he might be hard to beat... but he'll have hard time beating most people.
Kill his machines fast (even harpies should make short work of dwarf cannon crew)
once his shooting is silenced he's sitting duck, whittle down one unit at a time starting with the ones without heroes.
I admit, 6 turns is usually too little to beat dwarfs with dark elf army, but if he has so little shooting, you can easily make it a draw.

Krupp · Post by **Krupp** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:59 am

I like your optimism Dalamar. The man plays the list well. The problem is even if you manage to take out the war machines (usually at great cost), the combat units are worth a huge amount of points. Harpies might kill 1 machine, but odds are they will either break and flee or fight the crew for the rest of the game. The key to his strategy is to have the dragon slayer lurking close to the warmachines, usually on a hill. Any harpies or darkriders that don't win thier combats in 1 round get charged and anniliated.

Like I said before, I've played this list dozens of times and a couple of misfires is your only hope. Being able to guess spot on every time with a stone thrower that allows you to reroll the scratter dice is fatal. Only list I can think of that would give him a run for his money is an all dryad woodie list, no treemen or treekin, they'll get vaporized, all dryads.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:28 am

statistics are on your side, I agree that slayer might be troublesome, have you thought of shooting him down? if he's running there all on his own, it's just 3 wounds you need to deal and he's done for. Just let loose a salvo or two from your bolt throwers into the naked crazy dwarf (if he's hiding, well, then make sure his own units block the charge line too!)

Saint of m · Post by **Saint of m** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:08 am

Having gone up against the Dwarves on numers ocations, they are a pain.

FIrst off they have the best magic items in the game! They have hundreds of runes for every thing (D6 wounds per hit, +1 armor, protection from shooting) and just about anything can get a rune. There is no limit on runes, unlike other magic items, and unless it specificly states this, can be addad up to increase power, armor save, and so forth.

second: THe other runes.

Some of the general purpose ones include stealing one of your powerdice, and turning it into one of theiur disppess diece (every turn) or my favorite: Cannons that have a self destruct rune so when the crew is defeated, your troops die too!)

Others simply grant magic resistance, or add a dispell die, or get +1, to dispell.

2nd, they get 1 or 2 more disspell die then you (can't remember which.)

3rd. Mentaly they are touph. Your basic dwarven warrior has a leadership of 9 for crying out loud. SO any spells that cause a psyc test won;t do much against them.

Spells do go through thouugh. I do manage to get a chill wind and a black horor off when I need to, and with the desired effects.

Try it out, but you better have alot of magic items. Leave the scroles behind because their spells can't be dispellsed.

Have Shades, annassassin, and harpies going round about, killing off the warmachines and shooty trrops (since shades and assassins have the scoutiing rule, it'll come in handy.) I had a unit of 11 shades pretty much parked next to his dwarven warriors due to where he had a forest placed. The assassin will need both killing blow and poisin to get through their tough hiuds and armor (Toughness four and a 4+ armor save.)

Lord gargarim · Post by **Lord gargarim** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:29 am

As a Dwarf player I can say quite abit. A dwarf army with 1 rune smith with Master rune of balance has 6 dispel dice, and takes one of yours, meaning that he can hinder your magic phase even more!

I Dis-like gun line or, 4-5 warmachine dwarf armies, I have played them with my Dwarfs and I hate it, although I have won mostly I can see it being a problem with DE's, I would say if you go magic heavy make sure you take chill wind, brilliannt at stopping shooting, although, remember that they are High toughness so would be hard to pull off.

Do not worry about runes, many are not used, to many points or what ever,
may be able to take any-combo but often they are pricey and cost the army in other areas.

Lord G.

Scareypete · Post by **Scareypete** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:23 pm

Honestly Dwarfs are tied with Khorne for being able to shut magic down. Possibly even better. With my Anti-Magic variation of my dwarf list I cna stop a Slann Priest with 2 skink priests working for him at 2K, I have also shut off a High Elf magic phase with a L4, 2 L2's and a L1.

Base 4 DD
Runle Lord with Anvil and Master Rune of Spell Binding, a Spell eater Rune (Scroll with chance to remove spell form game) and Rune of Warding (MR1)
+3 Dice, +1 to Dispell Rolls.

Thane With Battle Standard And Master Rune of Vayala, 2 Runes of Sancuatry (MR2 for his unit)
+2 to all Dispell rolls

RuneSmith with Master Rune of Balance (Takes one of your Power Dice form you and gives it to me as a Dispell Dice), Rune of Spell Breaking (like a scroll)
+2 Dice and -1PD from opponent.

So with just that much of an anti-magic defense in addition to Runes of Warding that can be added to many Unit standards.... and another character slot that can take more runesmiths...

2K Base DD 11, +3 To Dispell Rolls. -1 PD from Opponent. 1 Scroll, 1 Spell eater.

Dark Elf 2K all out magic List.
L4 Sorc + Cloak. 3 L2 Sorceresses with wand of kharaidon and 4 powerstones.

Power Dice 12 (11 becuase of my standard) +1 to casting Rolls. 1 Bound Item. 4 one shot Power Dice.

With this set up you might get 2 spells off in the entire game barring irresistable force of course. but allong with that you are rolling a lot of casting dice... to chances of miscasts killing your sorceresses are High. Plus you lack long range shooting and Close combat characters to deal with the couple close combat characters (BSB + A Thane) that the Dwarf player still has room for. Of course he can always take another runesmith with 2 more scrolls for 12DD and 3 scrolls and an eater with +3 to dispell rolls and 1-2 points of MR on almost every unit.

So Magicing a Dwarf who is prepared for it isn't going to happen. and whats lef tof your army after paying for all those casters will be torn to pieces by his war machines and the ragtags remains will have to face WS4, T4, SV 3+ dwarfs that rarely run form close combat.