Possible use for the new Sorcerous mount.

[Almundis]

I was thinking today at work about why sorceresses are able to ride dragons in the new book. (Shoveling rubble isn't that mentally stimulating you see). I then thought that if you put a high sorc on a dragon with the lore of fire you could have a terror causer that has numerous magic missiles and (with the Sword of Rhuin spell) a pretty nasty CC character. However the current high sorc only has one attack, so even with the sword spell she'd only have 2 attacks, but combined with the dragon that's 7 S6 attacks with hatred. This combination does have some obvious weaknesses and using a sorc as a CC character is a bit unorthodox, but I thought I'd throw it out there as an idea. Once the spearhead arrives I will test it properly but please give your own input as I'd like to hear some different opinions.

[The griefbringer]

Are we sure the sorceresses *can* ride dragons? I thought they couldn't.

[Jankiel]

Yes we're sure.

[Elven prince]

Well, I usually run Dragon Mage in my build and even though he can swap one of his spells for the Flaming sword, I usually don't take it ( though he has two starting attacks on his profile). Mages are mages and can’t stand prolonged combat; the sword is also RiP type spell making him easy to cancel in subsequent turns...
I usually use my mobility to avoid ranged units and burn/pin regular footman, once the enemy closes in I try to trap him with my White Lions and get a flank charge with my DM.

I haven't tried Archamge on a Moon Dragon simply due to the thought how much I'd needed to pay for it (and what I’d received in return) and what I'd needed to give up.

[Masterofdarkness]

I would use it as mobility with the added bonus of dont charge me factor. Use spells to get the supreme sorc up to 6 wounds and no one is going to be able to one shot her even on the charge. Still I wouldnt do it but would put her on a dark peggie as I currently do

[Tolkar of har ganeth]

I think that it would attract a lot of attention. You basically put a 300+ point character on a mount that is also that expensive. You will end up with a third of your army in one model.

Also it means that you'll have to destroy one third of the enemies army to get your points back, and that's just unlikely. Your model will try to fry the enemy with magic and a breath weapon and kill them in close combat, but cant do both in the same turn. I think the more one-sided dreadlord on dragon would be better because he'll just try to kill you in close combat and is better at doing that.

The dragon mage on the other hand is a little better in cambat and costs a LOT less points. His acces to the flaming sword all the time can make him strong enough to finish an enemy unit in combat in one turn if flanking. The supreme sorceress won't do that.

It has possibilities, but I probably wont use a S sorceress on a dragon.

[Almundis]

Good points. I was comparing it to the peggy in my mind, but after more thought I think it is defiantly something to try against certain opponents. Especially with the inverse ward save thing I think it is a much more viable option than it first appears. And as for the points sink I use the age old strategy of another points sink. Force my opponent to divide up his shooting/attacks. I think against TK, skaven, skink armies, maybe even VC, this idea could work more fluidly. I might try it with a hydra and two bolt throwers. Because with 7 S6 re-rollable attacks she is ideal for taking out small scout units like way-watchers, and for smashing into weakened units.

One strategy i came up with, though it is a major gambit, is to fly near to an enemy unit, so that you may just be within charge range. Then you use the breath attack with the -3 LD modifier, meaning they cannot charge you next round, then you kill some more with fire magic, then the unit cannot charge you, and depending on how many you killed you can then charge with 7 attacks, hopefully you will have removed any rank bonuses or charge the flank. The dragon alone should be able to cause enough wounds in combat and you can break, then overrun. Perhaps I'm over estimating the lore of fire.

Also, could a lvl4 sorceress cast each of her spells once, being that we have the +D3 PD spell and darkstar cloak?

[Entreri bloodletter]

Hmm interesting idea, I think it might actually work because of the protective gear we can give her. The inverse ward save should protect her from a lot of enemy shooting and given the charge she shouldn't be harmed in CC.

Personally with a Supreme Sorceress on the dragon I would go with death magic. Regaining lost wounds, making enemies take terror tests at -3? sounds good! Two magic missiles are always good and with proper positioning panic tests could have them running towards the bulk of your army!

[Xerasi]

I on the contrary believe that the point Tolkar raises is invalid. It's a redicules concept getting your points back, imho the worst argument that is continuously raised without any thought added to it. A few examples of why it is simply wrong: The sorc kills for 100 points of units, she is not hurted below half wounds, and dragon still alive. She suddenly got more points back than invested (as she didn't give up any points). This is raised on the same conditions as the getting your points back. But this is also a bad argument. The Sorc on dragon may not gain a single point back, and may be slain or dropped below half wounds, but if she is able to dictate opponents movement, hinder their charges, and protect the rest of your army she will be an asset. She may threaten the advance on a flank, whilst the rest of your army takes on the other flank etc.

Tolkar you are right about no fighting and breathweapon in the same turn, but it is nowhere stated about no magic and CC in the same turn. You cannot cast MM's in CC, and it must be stated that you can cast a spell into CC, but thats it (AFAIK). On the other hand you are allowed to throw many other spells out of CC. Multiple of our spells allow us to cast in CC, our out of CC. And being on a large target means that we'll have LOS over the unit that we are fighting against allowing us to target more units. But more importantly the Focus Familiar allows us to place a marker within 6" and cast spells from it, probably allowing magic missiles, as well as any other spell even when engaged. As such we are able to do both.

The Dragonmage being better at CC is wrong imho. WE have a Dragon with hatred. A full scale dragon! The sorceress and dragon will have different uses, but they complement each other much better than say a sorc would on a manticore. The dragon (with hatred) can take on a unit on its own provided a flank charge or additional support. It'll kill any models in btb (most likely). The sorceress will be able to take out champions with spells, and boost the dragons combat power among others (say with the lore of metal spell granting -1 AC or word of pain etc).

That being said, I would be very desperate trying to fly infront of a unit, flame them for the possibility that they can't charge (most units will be within their general so testing on modifid ld of 6, not odds I'll want to take) And after that they'll need to pass a terror test. Odds are that I'm gonna be very unhappy if my dragon is pinned because I'm stupid.

I'd be using the Sorc dragon as any other dragon, as a flanker. I'll use it to support my army breathing at targets that'll be able to charge my units, and not risk my sorceress life.

I could imagine that I'd field it something alike:

Supreme sorc, Black Dragon, Pendant, Focus Familiar, Scroll/black dragon egg and then maybe a bitting blade if I feel lucky.. she does need a glowy sword after all.
Alternatively just the Focus Familiar and Black amulet.

I'd really love to give her MR, but it doesn't seem possible and I prefer the save after all. Backed up by a lvl 2, possibly with 1 or 2 scrolls or the Darkstar cloak

[Almundis]

Also you can combine doom & darkness (also -3 LD spell). So that's two tests at -3 + terror test, that increases your chances a fair amount.

EDIT: Ok, had another pro come to mind. If you use the lore of shadows, you can move your 20", then cast steed of shadows. 40" you could be on your opponents deployment zone by turn 1. This gives you the oppertunity to destroy warmachines and cause terror checks (potentially running units off the board due to their proximity to the edge). That sounds like a vicious tactic. I'm pretty sure I will run one in my list.

[Mordru]

@ Xerasi

Well said. This "making your points back" nonsense totally misapprehends how WFB works. Any points you deny to the opponent is the same as winning the points by slaughtering the opposing models. Unless you somehow think every game you play will be a massacre win for you.

[Decker_cky]

Making points back is only important for a unit you know you will lose, that doesn't give a particular tactical edge aside from killing.

[Masterofdarkness]

cant cast steed of shadows on anything with more than US 1. Using the dragon as a flanker is the only way to do it. If he doesnt have alot of shooting you are going to control his movement phase, cause he cant leave ANY flanks open otherwise since you are a large target you can get any unit you want by turn 2-3. Plus give a block of warriors( like 30) fear and they are on -6 for their leadership tests get that charge off with at least 1 assassin(remember you can only have one in a unit at the start, nothing to stop them from leaving and joining another unit with a assassin in it.) Even if they pass they are gonna get f'ed up

[Xerasi]

Decker: you still have to take into account that said unit would provide a threat range. Even if it's only there for killing. And they always have a tactical edge. Deployment is tactical and deploying it correctly at the right time is tactical.

Baiting would be useless if you didn't have a reason to bait, so all units have their merits.

Almundis: sadly you can only cast steed of shadow on a US 1 model. One of the big advantages with the dragon is that it's 6... That said, same tactic would work with unseen lurker, although I've no clue as to how important it would be...

[Almundis]

Damn, there's always a catch. Either way, I'm going to build a list around this. I reckon a dragon sorc and two lvl 2's with a hydra and 2 RBT then fil out the rest with CoK, witch elves and DR. Maybe a block or two of spears.

[Caboose]

Also you can combine doom & darkness (also -3 LD spell). So that's two tests at -3 + terror test, that increases your chances a fair amount.

EDIT: Ok, had another pro come to mind. If you use the lore of shadows, you can move your 20", then cast steed of shadows. 40" you could be on your opponents deployment zone by turn 1. This gives you the oppertunity to destroy warmachines and cause terror checks (potentially running units off the board due to their proximity to the edge). That sounds like a vicious tactic. I'm pretty sure I will run one in my list.

Oooo....I like the sound of that! haha Got me all excited and ready to do some damage!

"Come on over here.....My Dragon and I just wanna talk....You know....Catch up and exchange pleasantries." hehe

[Decker_cky]

Decker: you still have to take into account that said unit would provide a threat range. Even if it's only there for killing. And they always have a tactical edge. Deployment is tactical and deploying it correctly at the right time is tactical.

Baiting would be useless if you didn't have a reason to bait, so all units have their merits.

Agree 100%. The wink was because I painted such a specific situation for that to be the case that there is no such unit.

[Mordru]

Also you can combine doom & darkness (also -3 LD spell). So that's two tests at -3 + terror test, that increases your chances a fair amount.

EDIT: Ok, had another pro come to mind. If you use the lore of shadows, you can move your 20", then cast steed of shadows. 40" you could be on your opponents deployment zone by turn 1. This gives you the oppertunity to destroy warmachines and cause terror checks (potentially running units off the board due to their proximity to the edge). That sounds like a vicious tactic. I'm pretty sure I will run one in my list.

Oooo....I like the sound of that! haha Got me all excited and ready to do some damage!

"Come on over here.....My Dragon and I just wanna talk....You know....Catch up and exchange pleasantries." hehe

Gentlemen. How many people have to point out that you can only cast steed of shadows on a model with US1. No Steed of Shadows on dragons, hydras, even cavalry models no no no. No 40" movement in one turn with dragons using steed of shadows. Please review the spell lore in the BRB.
Unseen lurker is the spell you need to move units not repeat not steed of shadows. Full stop.

[Caboose]

Gentlemen. How many people have to point out that you can only cast steed of shadows on a model with US1. No Steed of Shadows on dragons, hydras, even cavalry models no no no. No 40" movement in one turn with dragons using steed of shadows. Please review the spell lore in the BRB.
Unseen lurker is the spell you need to move units not repeat not steed of shadows. Full stop.

Aaaaawwww.....And I was SOOOO excited for a minute there. lol I'm still fresh to WHFB, so thank you for the heads up. hahaha Even if it did squash my hopes and dreams of my dragon munching on some puny little non-believers. hehe

[Irtehdar]

she does need a glowy sword after all.

Thankyou!
You cant ride a dragon without a glowing sword. Well you can but still. Riding into battle on a prestigious mount like a dragon wielding your brand new second hand standard issue militia sword is just wrong. ''Bling'' is important! If only i was skilled enough to actually model my dragon riding sorc with an actual glowing sword I'd be happy.

[Almundis]

my dragon riding sorc with an actual glowing sword I'd be happy.

Glad to see my idea is catching on

[[llct]kain]

I would like to assist Tolkar a bit.
In the end you put a 300+ modell T3 W2 on a great target. O.K. I know some people play the HS on a Manti, but I am not realy convinced that this will work. The use of the Manti leaves the option to stay away from the enemy - but the investement in the bigger mount, the dragon, must have a benefit over the manti.
On the last tourney I played vs. an HE with two dragon mages - both hid for 3 turns and because of this were quite limited in using their magic. On turn 4 they showed themselfs on one flank. With the ramaining 8 RxBs I killed one mage, and the RBT took the other...both dragons survived. But it is the problem with T3 and 2 wounds that even some RxBs or bows could easily kill you, especially when you are on a large target and could not realy hide.
(3 wounds of a HS, means 6 hits on her, 18 hits on the modell, 27 shots (on 3+) are required from a S3 weapon --> 14 RxB in one round.

[Almundis]

Valid points but I still think it's worth a shot.

[Tolkar of har ganeth]

I think that the sorceress will be able to survive a lot thanks to the magical protection we can give her in the new book (Yay inverse ward!). And it is true that she will hit a lot harder thanks to hatred (Which I forgot about... X/ ). The only problem that i see is the cost. It may be a little twisted to say that she has to destroy some 700 points to get her points back, but the fact remains that she has to make her presence felt to make her worth while. So one of the most important things to do with her is to make her really dangerous. And I don't see her as more dangerous than a dreadlord on dragon. All the things that make her dangerous on a dragon also make her dangerous in other conditions.

Giving a sorceress a magic weapon that enhances her strenght may actually be worth it now. The hatred giving her a 75% of hitting almost everything. Things like crimson death or even a sword of might will increase the chance of killing something enough to make her count in combat.

One of the other thing I hadn't considered in my first post was the fact that she can now use the lore of fire and metal. Both these lores can do quite a lot for a sorceress on dragon. The lore of fire only has two magic missles which come in handy if not in combat, but in combat you can still cast the flaming sword, wall of fire, burning head and conflageration of doom. each will reduce the size of the unit your fighting thanks to the several S4 hits they inflict, or make your sorceress stronger in combat. Which all help. And a level 4 sorceress with an extra spell (not much use for he dagger on a dragon) will always have some of the best spells.

I reconsider my opinion on the sorceress alot. The fact that she has hatred will make her and the dragon a lot stronger and the lores available to her suit an aggresive style needed on a dragon. ( even though I'd always use dark magic for soul stealer) The high sorceress might even be good enough to play aggresive roles with lot of combat.

What I now wonder about is what the rest of the army will be doing? Will you need an aggresive army with lots of combat power and some masters, or will a more shooty army with two level two's be better? In my oppinion the dragon mounted sorceress will need a lot of support, even though she hits hard. The most important thing is probably to get extra mages. If you leave her on her own, she may be a powerfull caster, but will have to content with all the enemies dispell dice. And more sorceresses will end up in a seriously expensive character section. What tactics will you use with the rest of the army? And most important, what characters will you take beside a dragon mounted high sorceress?

[Goblin stalker]

I would take with her a lv2 sorceress (with the dagger and some anti magic) a BSB or Cauldron and then put assasins into my blocks of troops for some extra punch. With the few points I will have left I will get some DR, a unit of CoK, warriors (maybe 25, maybe 2x25), a Hydra and a unit of either executioners or corsairs.