Killing Blow and Combat Resolution

Gastronauticon · Post by **Gastronauticon** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:53 am

So now the assasins are worth it again. We have a neat poison that doubles CR in challenges.

So how does KBs compute into CR? I can forsee causing mulitiple KBs and additional woulnds in a single challenge. At multiple wound opponents at that.

So how does it work actually? The BRB is vague...

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:28 pm

In 6th Ed the CR bonus was the actual number of wounds caused (so if a character with 3 wounds died of a killing blow, you get +3 CR). I can't see any reason why it should be different in this edition and to me the phrasing in the BRB implies that it still is like that because there is nothing saying that you only get +1 for causing one wound. You have caused three wounds (no matter the number of attacks) and so you get +3 CR (just like if you were to kill a model with a weapon causing D3 wounds - you only have one hit and one roll to wound, but you can still cause a loss of 3 wounds if you get lucky).

HUZZAH!

Whobetta · Post by **Whobetta** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:36 pm

wow... that sucks for me. I've been playing recently that KB attacks although kill the char (after ward save? or no?) it counts only for 1 wound...

thats cool though, makes me value KB higher now since my friends always try to challenge...

The griefbringer · Post by **The griefbringer** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:47 pm

What happens if you get two killing blows on the same opponent in a challenge? Does that net you double their wounds (because of overkill)?

For example, I challenge a Dwarf Thane (2w) with my Assassin (5-7 KB attacks) and score two sixes on my damage dice. Is that 4 wounds done? Does that translate to 8 CR with Dark Venom?

Gastronauticon · Post by **Gastronauticon** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:27 pm

two killing blows on the same opponent in a challenge

Yes, that is the thing. I can get how the one KB causes the remaining number of wounds, no matter how many. The question is how it is interpeted with respect to both mulitple KBs and additional wounds in the same challenge.

To me, the simplest way of calculating this would be (in this order):

1. First successful KB causes the remaining amount of wounds the opposing model had at the beginning of the challenge.

2. All further succesful KBs cause one wound for overkill purposes.

3. All further normal wounds cause overkill in the normal fashion.

As you might imagine, my issue is that I fear my opponents will try to alter the above order of things to minimize the effect on CR. I want to make sure that Dark Venom is not interpeted into uselessness.

As for the assassin I think about:
2HW +1A
Rune of Khanie +D3A
Touch of Death +KB
Dark Venom +x2 CR

If Dark Venom doesnt work well with Touch of Death, Black Lotus sure does.
However I really want to punish anyone trying to accept my assassin´s challenge with a champion.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:05 pm

To me, killing blow is one wound. If you KB multiple times, then you get credit for those as well.

But all in all one KB is one wound. Its just enough to KILL the model (not finish off all wounds, but kill it outright.

Faulkynn grom · Post by **Faulkynn grom** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:05 pm

I've some very, very bad news for everyone. Dark Venom does not double CR as we were led to believe. It only doubles overkill up to the maximum. So that's max 6 CR for an assassin. If you're fling him into a full unit (3 ranks, standard, outnumber = CR 5) you better pray they don't have a warbanner/muso, cuz you'll lose. Same goes for units with BSBs, unless you plan on killing said BSB. I was absolutely shattered when I found this out, as my dreams of CR 14 on daemons/VCs when up in a cloud of smoke. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it had to be done. We're just going to have to fling 2 assassins at said unit. Let's see them deal with that.

FG

The griefbringer · Post by **The griefbringer** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Faulkynn Grom wrote:I've some very, very bad news for everyone. Dark Venom does not double CR as we were led to believe. It only doubles overkill up to the maximum. So that's max 6 CR for an assassin. If you're fling him into a full unit (3 ranks, standard, outnumber = CR 5) you better pray they don't have a warbanner/muso, cuz you'll lose. Same goes for units with BSBs, unless you plan on killing said BSB. I was absolutely shattered when I found this out, as my dreams of CR 14 on daemons/VCs when up in a cloud of smoke. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it had to be done. We're just going to have to fling 2 assassins at said unit. Let's see them deal with that.

FG

(Crossing Dark Venom off my Army List)

Killing Blow isn't one wound--it is as many wounds as the target had when you killed him. I'm sure this is in the BRB somewhere, I just don't have it with me.

As for the multiple KBs, what argument is there in the rules for limiting the second one to only one wound? I'm not saying this to be argumentative--I'm genuinely curious.

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:14 pm

ampao wrote:To me, killing blow is one wound. If you KB multiple times, then you get credit for those as well.

But all in all one KB is one wound. Its just enough to KILL the model (not finish off all wounds, but kill it outright.

How can KB POSSIBLY be only 1 wound. If you're fighting someone with 3 wounds, and you do 1 KB, you can't kill them with just 1 wound. You just simply do multiple wounds with 1 killing strike.

I play with how Gastronauticon plays it. And if they give you a hard time, tell them you'll be happy to make EACH KB count for the total remaining wounds on the character to maximize CR if they don't want to compromise with how you're playing it. That's the fairest breakdown of multiple KB IMO.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:34 pm

furiouscado wrote:How can KB POSSIBLY be only 1 wound. If you're fighting someone with 3 wounds, and you do 1 KB, you can't kill them with just 1 wound. You just simply do multiple wounds with 1 killing strike.

Warhammer Rulebook p.95 wrote:If a model with killing blow special rule rolls a 6 when rolling to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent. No armour saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound, though ward saves can be taken as normal.

Warhammer Rulebook p.37 wrote:Each side scores a number of combat result points equal to the wounds caused in the combat.

If you have 1 attack, you can only cause 1 wound. Unless you have multiple wound causers. Killing blow is not that. It only causes ONE WOUND which is enough to kill the opponent.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:05 pm

ampao wrote:But all in all one KB is one wound. Its just enough to KILL the model (not finish off all wounds, but kill it outright.

But the only way to kill a model is to "finish off all wounds", so your interpretation doesn't make any sense. Your first quoted line from the rulebook does not solidify your case, either.

Faulkynn Grom wrote:If you're fling him into a full unit (3 ranks, standard, outnumber = CR 5) you better pray they don't have a warbanner/muso

Slight correction: They will still lose if all they have is a musician, because that only comes into play in tie-breakers.

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:06 pm

if you have something that causes multiple wounds to which you normally get a save, you get to try to stop THE WOUND which is then multiplied into many. ie a cannon ball. You get your 1 ward save then you take D3/D6 wounds. KB you don't get a save from "this wound" but if you fail the ward it's multiplied out into the remaining number of wounds the model has.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:11 pm

furiouscado wrote:if you have something that causes multiple wounds to which you normally get a save, you get to try to stop THE WOUND which is then multiplied into many. ie a cannon ball. You get your 1 ward save then you take D3/D6 wounds. KB you don't get a save from "this wound" but if you fail the ward it's multiplied out into the remaining number of wounds the model has.

where does it say the KB multiplies to the remaining wounds the model has?

Quote from other forum:
Page 37 says add the wounds caused.

Page 93 says Killing blow slays the opponent. Nothing about doing more wounds.

Chariots have a specific rule that says if the suffer a S7 hit they lose all remaining wounds.

So in short: killing blow is only worth 1 point of CR. However, if you killing blow the guy several times, or do more normal wounds and killing blow him, you still add those.

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:14 pm

Page 93 says Killing blow slays the opponent. Nothing about doing more wounds.

and how exactly do you slay your opponent when he has 3 wounds if you only do 1?

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:19 pm

furiouscado wrote:
Page 93 says Killing blow slays the opponent. Nothing about doing more wounds.

and how exactly do you slay your opponent when he has 3 wounds if you only do 1?

Its part of the Killing Blow special rule.

Page 95 of the rulebook. "he automatically slays his opponent." so the model is removed, NOTHING about causing extra wounds.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:35 pm

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:
ampao wrote:But all in all one KB is one wound. Its just enough to KILL the model (not finish off all wounds, but kill it outright.

But the only way to kill a model is to "finish off all wounds", so your interpretation doesn't make any sense. Your first quoted line from the rulebook does not solidify your case, either.

Faulkynn Grom wrote:If you're fling him into a full unit (3 ranks, standard, outnumber = CR 5) you better pray they don't have a warbanner/muso

Slight correction: They will still lose if all they have is a musician, because that only comes into play in tie-breakers.

Where does it state that that is the ONLY way? The killing blow special rule states that there is another way. And that is rolling 6s on the to wound roll.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:38 pm

By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just having a healthy discussion is all.

Fairly new to the boards. Nice to meet you all.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:52 pm

Because generally speaking, to kill a model you have to remove all of its wounds. Killing blow does this, just like attacks that do multiple wounds, etc.

Not sure how on earth you can argue that Killing Blow is not doing more than 1 wound, other than that very subjective and debatable example you quoted.

On the other side of the argument, there was clear prescedent from 6th Edition that KB counted all remaining wounds toward overkill in challenges...

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:58 pm

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Because generally speaking, to kill a model you have to remove all of its wounds. Killing blow does this, just like attacks that do multiple wounds, etc.

Not sure how on earth you can argue that Killing Blow is not doing more than 1 wound, other than that very subjective and debatable example you quoted.

On the other side of the argument, there was clear prescedent from 6th Edition that KB counted all remaining wounds toward overkill in challenges...

I wanted that rule as well. But as the KB special rule only states the model being slain from one very nasty wound. Thats all I'm counting. Isn't there a GW Errata for this?

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:45 pm

ampao wrote:
GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Because generally speaking, to kill a model you have to remove all of its wounds. Killing blow does this, just like attacks that do multiple wounds, etc.

Not sure how on earth you can argue that Killing Blow is not doing more than 1 wound, other than that very subjective and debatable example you quoted.

On the other side of the argument, there was clear prescedent from 6th Edition that KB counted all remaining wounds toward overkill in challenges...

I wanted that rule as well. But as the KB special rule only states the model being slain from one very nasty wound. Thats all I'm counting. Isn't there a GW Errata for this?

yes one very nasty wound that counts for the remaining number of wounds on the character. lol You can't kill a character by only inflicting one wound. The KB special rule is that its one super wound counts for as many wounds as the character has left.

If it was some special kind of wound then it would have more explanation (hopefully) that it only counts as 1 wound. And if that was the case, it's a flaw to KB which im sure they're not trying to create... you're supposed to like having KB.

And think of it logically.. either you watch you leader get poked 3 times with a knife and he dies.. you're troops are frightened x 3 (+3 CR), OR you watch this pointy-eared guy with a giant blade cleaver your leader with one swing... just as scary... he's dead... and the only way to make him dead was to cause 3 wounds.

Whobetta · Post by **Whobetta** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:50 pm

Dang, yeah any info would be extremely helpful. as I stated earlier my friends and I play that KB is only 1 wound...

but I would like to know how the combet resolution is done for this and what happens w/ multiple Killing Blows landed...

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:58 pm

furiouscado wrote:
ampao wrote:
GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Because generally speaking, to kill a model you have to remove all of its wounds. Killing blow does this, just like attacks that do multiple wounds, etc.

Not sure how on earth you can argue that Killing Blow is not doing more than 1 wound, other than that very subjective and debatable example you quoted.

On the other side of the argument, there was clear prescedent from 6th Edition that KB counted all remaining wounds toward overkill in challenges...

I wanted that rule as well. But as the KB special rule only states the model being slain from one very nasty wound. Thats all I'm counting. Isn't there a GW Errata for this?

yes one very nasty wound that counts for the remaining number of wounds on the character. lol You can't kill a character by only inflicting one wound. The KB special rule is that its one super wound counts for as many wounds as the character has left.

If it was some special kind of wound then it would have more explanation (hopefully) that it only counts as 1 wound. And if that was the case, it's a flaw to KB which im sure they're not trying to create... you're supposed to like having KB.

And think of it logically.. either you watch you leader get poked 3 times with a knife and he dies.. you're troops are frightened x 3 (+3 CR), OR you watch this pointy-eared guy with a giant blade cleaver your leader with one swing... just as scary... he's dead... and the only way to make him dead was to cause 3 wounds.

If that was the case, wouldnt the KB rule be the same as the Chariot rule where it explicitly says that the chariot when wounded by a S7 hit, it loses its remaining wounds?

It doesnt state the same for KB.

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:15 pm

To the best of my knowledge, you always get to count all wounds remaining on a model if it is KBed. I agree with Grotsnot here. You can't kill a model unless one of its stats is lowered to zero. This is stated in the BRB. Attacks towards a model lower the number of wounds. Once they hit 0, the model dies. KB removes all wounds to kill the model, thus you get points for wounds remaining on the model. This isn't a hard concept to comprehend. In a challenge, since the model is dead, all further killing blow attacks count as an additional point for combat res as there is no longer a model to kill. You are just hacking his body up at that point.

Ampao · Post by **Ampao** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:24 pm

druchii77 wrote:To the best of my knowledge, you always get to count all wounds remaining on a model if it is KBed. I agree with Grotsnot here. You can't kill a model unless one of its stats is lowered to zero. Attacks towards a model lower the number of wounds. Once they hit 0, the model dies. KB removes all wounds to kill the model, thus you get points for wounds remaining on the model. This isn't a hard concept to comprehend. In a challenge, since the model is dead, all further killing blow attacks count as an additional point for combat res as there is no longer a model to kill. You are just hacking his body up at that point.

No it doesnt. Killing blow does not remove the remaining wounds. It slays the model. The wounds getting to zero is not even mentioned in the rule. You're only assuming it does.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:36 pm

There is no rule stating a model can ever die unless one of its stats drop to zero. Now, since his other stats are not going down to zero, it must be wounds as that is the most logical. Not to mention it worked like this in 6th ed and there is no concrete evidence to have a belief that it works any other way besides playing Devils Advocate and if that is the case, I'll stop watching this thread. Play it however you want but every tournament I've ever been in, when the opponent gets KBed its however many wounds he had left.

-Rex