Bladewind

[Kensou]

This has probably been discussed before, so I'll apolagize for being to lazy make a thorough search.

Does hatred affect Bladewind?

[Crawd]

Nope it doesn't, because Hatred works on the first round of close combat phase of any combat and Blade wind to hit roll is in the magic phase. So unless there's a FAQ that says that Hatred works on Blade wind, it doesn't by the book.

[Kinslayer]

no because bladewind is a spell and hatred affects the character itself, the spell is not part of the character it is just cast by her.

[Nurik0]

Next question:
Do models with handweapon/shield get the bonus to their armor?

[Dark Alliance]

Of course they would. They are close combat attacks.

[Obsidianichor]

Actually, looking at the rules in the BRB, I don't think they can use their hand weapon and shield bonus. The rule for hand weapons and shields states, "This only applies in close combat, not against wounds suffered from shooting, magic, or other means." Bladewind inflicts close combat attacks but it is still MAGIC, which means that you cannot include the hand weapon and shield bonus.

[Crawd]

But it is close combats, so yes Hand Weapon + Shields works. It doesn't says: "In the Close Combat phase" it only says: "Close combat" and Bladewind are close combat attacks.

[Obsidianichor]

The rule for hand weapons and shields states, "This only applies in close combat, not against wounds suffered from shooting, magic, or other means."

Bladewind inflicts close combat attacks but it is still MAGIC, which means that you cannot include the hand weapon and shield bonus.

Emphasis is mine. Tell me, is Bladewind magic? Yes or no.

The answer is yes. Therefore, you cannot add a bonus for hand weapon and shield.

[Kensou]

Then you shouldn't be able to use hand weapon + shield against a sword of might is it is magic aswell only in different form

[Zakath the slaughterer]

Kensou is right. And since DA also says so, I think its saef to assume that models do get the parry bonus. The part of magic in the parry rules obviously means spells like Soul Stealer and Spirit of the Forge..

[Kensou]

Would you get the parry bonus if it was cast in flank or rear of the unit.

Personnaly I don't think so, but it's an interesting idea.

[Obsidianichor]

I take magic to mean something cast in the magic phase. Something like the Sword of Might is a magically enchanted weapon, not a pure magic attack.

[Crawd]

The hardest question is more about: Does KB works on this spell?

Some say yes, others say no. In my opinion, it works for these reasons:

"If a model with killing blow special rule rolls a 6 when rolling to wound in close combat, he automatically slays the opponent." (BRB P.95)

We can now read that you have to roll a 6 on the to wound roll for a close combat attack and since Bladewind counts as close combat, without being in a combat phase, you can apply it.

However, when you read the last paragraph, you can think otherwise:

"Rarely some models may have the ability of using killing blow rule with ranged attacks"(BRB P.95)

But since Bladewind doesn't count as a ranged attacks, since it counts as close combat, this part of the rule doesn't apply. Therefore, KB works from the way I'm seeing it. Of course an FAQ could clear up the question to solve useless debates.

[Rork]

The hardest question is more about: Does KB works on this spell?

How is bladewind going to benefit from Killing Blow?

[Silverheimdall]

How is Bladewind NOT going to benefit from Killing Blow?

3d6 WS4 S4 Close Combat Attacks.

Go read Killing Blow's rules, it states that any Close Combat attack's wound roll of 6 ignores armour, regen and slays the target.

It makes no mention of "in the close combat phase only" mainly because there are spells that give close combat attacks (Tomb King's) which can Killing Blow.
And a Killing Blow Chariot (Black Coach) will also Killing Blow on Impact Hits.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

Bladewind uses close combat style attacks rather than missile style attacks to inflict it's damage but the spell effect is not close combat.

If Bladewind was close combat then after the spell effect ended you would need to take a break test if the spell caused sufficient damage.

There is no way for Bladewind to get the Killing Blow benefit, I don't think a sorceress can get the killing blow special rule to even start the discussion.

[Tolkar of har ganeth]

It states that you have to roll a 6 when rolling to wound in close combat, not with close combat attacks. Seeing the fact that in the magic phase you probably won't be in combat, but just using close combat attack. SO you dont get killing blow.

But that raises the question; Does the wizard trow the dice to wound, or does the spell. I think that after the wizard has trown of the spell, the spell will resolve itself, not the sorceress. Thus not getting killing blow.

[Rork]

There is no way for Bladewind to get the Killing Blow benefit, I don't think a sorceress can get the killing blow special rule to even start the discussion.

Which was exactly the point I was trying to get at (Good to see people on the ball).

The sorceress can't get KB in the first place...

[Tolkar of har ganeth]

Beside even that. If you'd be able to make those attacks stronger or get an upgrade with something like a magic weapon, heartseeker would let you reroll all to hit and to wound rolls! NO the rules your sorceress has, does not let bladewind gain anything. Not for hatred, frenzy or magic weapons or the like. It would be clearly stated if it could.

[Dggrj]

Back to the 2nd question raised, I am in the camp that they should NOT get hw & shield bonus for BW, though I hadn't thought of it previously (thanks for bringing it up).

Here's why:

HW&Sh is only for CC attacks made from the front of the model. Now either:

I) BW attacks are made from all around and they don't
or
II) BW attacks are made from the direction of the sorceress

In case of II we have the issue that attacks can be allocated against champs and characters, who are usually in the front row, but not always. What about a Bret damsel hiding in a unit? She's surrounded by models, you can't reallyget a CC attack against her from any side. But oh wait, it's MAGIC! (Again, excluded by HW&Sh rules, but we can keep going with it as CC attacks.)
Additionally, what if the sorc is on the flank or rear of the unit, but the champ is in the front row - logically the only way to make a CC attack on him is from the front, at least if it's a real CC attack. So then are you rolling different AS values for different people not just based on gear but on position in the unit, all from the same spell? This is highly against GW's style, I think (yes, things have been getting a little simpler I'd say, like templates losing partial hits) and illogical.

And really - it's magic, people, who knows where it comes from / how it works

[Dark Alliance]

As with many of the other discussions, you guys are reading far too much into things.

I hear the argument about magic. It's sound enough but....

At the end of the day you work by what is written, and not what is missing. Bladewinds states quite simply that it makes close combat attacks. Therefore it is quite right to allow the opponent whatever close combat save they have.

As for losing hw/shield bonus coz you wanna attack to the side...utter tosh mate!!

And as for gaining KB on the Bladewind attacks...geez get a life! It states again (funnily enough in the army book...) that models gain KB IN CLOSE COMBAT...

Now I would think it safe to assume that because GW have chosen to include the words "IN CLOSE COMBAT" on that particular blessing only, that it is a clue as to how the cauldron actually works. Hmmm....

[Silverheimdall]

Just to push the issue ;P

Cauldron of blood gives Killing blow to Supreme sorc on a Black Dragon which gets into close combat and uses bladewind on another unit she can see (close combat doesn't block line of sight, models do, so being on top of a Dragon still has line of sight to everything else in the dragon's arc) then those hits that roll 6 to wound are killing blows?

I'm bored now :[

[Dark Alliance]

No and you know it...

LOS has nothing to do with it, and yes combat does block los even if she is on a dragon.

[Silverheimdall]

Says what part of the brb? o: I've never read anything on that in Fantasy game.

[Colonel]

Orcs have had a spell that causes a WS3 ST4 attack on every model in a unit for a long time, but I have never heard this discussion with them. I have always played that they dont get parry bonus as it is not in close combat. Nothing is in the O&G FAQ on it either.