5 or 6 harpies- poll/debate

[Saedron]

I know this seems silly, but hear me out:

5 Harpies - cheaper, at 55 points makes for a fairly inexpensive screen. The only problem here is that as soon as you take a single shooting casualty, you lose the extremely valuable option of being above US 5 for negating enemy's rank bonuses AND capturing table quarters. They are cheaper, though, and thus more expendable...

6 Harpies - at a slightly more expensive price tag (66 points), it may seem foolish to field units of 6 harpies at first. Yet, at least in my experience, they tend to draw a bit of firepower from my opponents due to the fright of their mobility (or maybe their seductive charm?.... ), or to get them to panic, leaving the screened, more valuable units behind them susceptible to shooting casualties. So taking them in units of 6 still make them maneuverable, and small enough to be expendable, but with 6 harpies per unit you are allowed to take 1 casualty while still maintaining US 5 (valuable for obvious reasons, see description for 5 per unit)


So, what do you guys think?

[Grez90]

i think 5 per unit, as you cannot negate ranks anyway, as flyers count as skirmishers.
plus if you lose 2 models from magic/shooting, and fail your leadership, which at 6 is likely, this means you've wasted an extra 11 points.
i'd rather have 3/4 units of 5 as if someone picks a couple off of each unit, then those shots have been wasted on a very cheap unit

[Saedron]

i think 5 per unit, as you cannot negate ranks anyway, as flyers count as skirmishers.

Really? I didn't know that rule. Hmmm.... Off to find the little red book!

[Grez90]

page 69 of main book, says they are skirmishers

[Crawd]

I will always use them as a unit of 5, for the only reason that if they panic, it will be usually because they broke or some dead harpies and since you need a US of 5 to cause other units of harpies to panic, with 5, you'll rarely trigger the other harpies to go into a chain panic reaction.

[Grez90]

harpies don't causepanic in other harpies, read the beasts rule, it says no panic in friendly units

[Saedron]

it says no panic in friendly units

So then all the more reason to field in units of 6 if there is no risk of causing panic due to a freak break after 1 shooting casualty...

Does that make sense? I'm not sure

[Getwisteerd]

They're a sacrificial unit, why would you want to have them more than minimal size?...

[Mordru]

I am presently painting up units 2, 3 and 4. They will be fielded in units of 5. They are screens, throwaways, suicide chargers, whatever else. If I have an extra unit to hold in reserve so much the better. I am fielding 3 units everytime and 4 units often. They are supposed to die instead of my other troops. Every shot, spell, and attack directed against the harpies is one not directed at the rest of the army. If they panic and flee back in range of the general then so much the better if thet panic and never rally who cares. They are like chaos hounds only much, much better. Units of 5 are all you need.

[Minsc]

I see no reason why you would ever field more than 5 per unit, except for the additonal wounds.

[Bounce]

I think people are forgetting though that Harpies are still 11 points each. There are a lot of other units that are less than Harpies and won't die as much.

With My harpies I try to focus on them not dying whilst acheiving various roles. Hence 6 or more Harpies for a bit of survivability makes sense.

Especially if you are playing another Dark Elf player with Harpies, in which case 6 or 7 is a lot better than 5.

[Layne]

I agree with those advocating bigger units. They're sacrificial, yes, but it's nice if they actually achieve something before they scarper or die. If you really want them only as a screen, and their whole purpose is to get shot, then maybe 5 is ok. But what if they're shot and panicked on the first turn - is that long enough to achieve their objective, or are the units they screen going to be exposed too soon? This depends how much shooting you expect to face. 7 Harpies seems a good thing. They can get shot once or twice, -1 to hit being every bit as good as a Sea Dragon Cloak in most situations, and still have enough to rid you of a warmachine, or a pesky mage, or to give you a flank or rear charge bonus.

[Goblin stalker]

I plan to use them to get behind enemy units to auto destroy them when I break them in combat or panic them from shooting. I would prefer the extra model (or two) to keep the unit strength above 5 and also to allow them to spread over a larger area.

ps. am I wrong about fleeing enemies being destroyed if they hit a unit stregth 5+ unit (including skirmishers)? I hope not, but don't have the book on me just now.

[Layne]

You got it right. Just one more reason to keep your Harpies alive and strong if you can manage it. You don't capture their banners or anything, but you do destroy them.

[Mordru]

If you lose first turn, your harpies will be mostly within 12" of the general and testing on at least a ld9 if you are screening with them. Thereafter it is not too difficult to fly them within charge range of most likely targets for a subsequent charge while still keeping them in range of the general if you march the units behind them forward.

If I am going to throw an 11 for a panic test in turn one I want to lose the remainder of a unit of 5 not the remainder of a unit of 7 or 8.

[Nightblade183]

Both Layne and Mordru make good points and I have used them in both ways many times for the reasons stated above, trying to find out which one is better. I now like fielding 2 or 3 units of them so I guess I'd rather go with 3 units of 5 than 2 units of 7 for only 11 points more. The more units of these guys the better, but this makes me wonder... is anyone considering a Flock of Doom army? If you were to load up on 40 or 50 harpies and then whatever else you want to include in your army wouldn't that be potentially the most devastating/cheesy army in the game?

[Mordru]

Four units of 5 is the most I am going to go with. Anything more and you can end up with an annoyance to play against. Not as bad as hordes of skinks but still to much chance of annoying to be fun I think.

[Gastronauticon]

If a fleeing enemy unit touches any of our units, does our unit not need to be US 5+ to cause the fleeing unit to be destroyed?

If so, 5 is too few as we reliably want to exploit any failed terror/panic/break tests our enemies are sure to make.

[Kinslayer]

5 per unit because i get 10 daemonettes in a box and am basing them on that, and also because i rarely have another 22pts to spare.

[Mordru]

Yes it needs to be unit strength five to destroy charges that is why you take multiple units. It is not a very good reason to take 6 models over 5. The reality is that anything aimed at a unit of harpies is likely to kill more than one as they are T3 with no armor. Redundancy of units is the way to go.