Cauldron Protection Question

[Narius phinshredder]

I used my COB for the first time on Sunday. Very quickly I realized the weakness is their lack of protection against enemy flyers (High Elf Star Dragon Grrr...). I was playing against High Elves and by turn 3 the COB was gone! Ok, it's an idea having a unit stay back to protect the COB and you get a fair amount of attacks with the Death hag and the 2 hags. But my opponent very easily got behind the line and landed in the flank of the COB (Not exactly the flank but lets just say out of LOS for my Witch Elf unit protecting it). I'm curious as to what methods people have been using?

[Ehakir]

Hide it in the woods; it isn't a chariot, so it doesn't get any impact hits or something, and flyers can't charge in woods. 24" would be enough range

[The_vicar]

Hmm, i'd sugest a small unit of dark elf warriors nothing expansive but enough to ward off small flying units a stardragon is beyond the realms of anything we have in dealing with in regards to tryng to protect. You could try using shades as mobile fire support close to your lines and using them to counter assaults and as protection. Integrating cobs kinto your lines helps aswell but it depends on how you line up i suppose..

[Dyvim tvar]

Ehakir's suggestion is a good one. If you put the cauldron in a forest, flyers can't fly in. This actually highlights an even more important point -- the Cauldron's effects do not require Line of Sight. So you can put it behind terrain, troops, etc.

Also, flyers can't charge the Cauldron if they have nowhere to land. Put a small bodyguard unit (crossbowmen with shields are generally able to fend off light units of flyers) directly in front of the Cauldron and make the enemy flyers engage that unit instead.

[Zeth]

Wait so your opponent spent ~600 points and only took out 200 points during three turns, and that cauldron had probably already influenced 2 charges and gave you a turn of protection against shooting?

Why is this bad? Seems like a wonderful investment of 200 points to me, and a giant waste of time and energy from your opponent.

[Archdukechocula]

Wait so your opponent spent ~600 points and only took out 200 points during three turns, and that cauldron had probably already influenced 2 charges and gave you a turn of protection against shooting?

Why is this bad? Seems like a wonderful investment of 200 points to me, and a giant waste of time and energy from your opponent.

That really depends on the rest of the battle.

[Zeth]

I suppose, if my cauldron got to effect half the game and removed a star dragon from half the game. I have an advantage for the rest of the battle, I have to make mistakes to get into a losing position from there.

Units die in warhammer, a lot of play is knowing when to not reinforce failure.
And when there is a dragon eating my cauldron, of which he takes 3 rounds of CC to do so. Having 200 points deal with my opponents 600 point and large tactical element for a significant portion of the game I'd be quite happy with that. Job well done for the cauldron.

[Archdukechocula]

I suppose, if my cauldron got to effect half the game and removed a star dragon from half the game. I have an advantage for the rest of the battle, I have to make mistakes to get into a losing position from there.

Units die in warhammer, a lot of play is knowing when to not reinforce failure.
And when there is a dragon eating my cauldron, of which he takes 3 rounds of CC to do so. Having 200 points deal with my opponents 600 point and large tactical element for a significant portion of the game I'd be quite happy with that. Job well done for the cauldron.

Well, right, but you are assuming a) the dragon had something better to do, and b) that in those 3 turns before hitting the cauldron, it wasn't doing anything constructive (breath weapon, terror, deterrence, charges of opportunity, etc) c) that this action didn't help him strategically in any significant sense in the following 3 turns and d) that the star dragon taking 200 points was somehow countered somewhere else on the battlefield. All they guy said is the guy had a star dragon, and by turn 3 his cauldron was gone because it was able to get behind his lines. That isn't really enough to draw many conclusions about the battle as a whole, and isn't really pertinent to the guy's question. He wants to know how to protect his asset. It's really up to his judgment in a battle to determine if and when it is worth actually devoting the resources to do so.

Personally, I don't feel it is generally worth the points to defend it, since it is a pretty capable fighting force on its own that causes terror, and I'm not sure its tactical benefit is so great that it is worthwhile devoting even more points to keep it functioning (unless you are running a Khainite army or something). But, if you insist on defending it, as has been mentioned, terrain is a major help, and/or a small unit of naked RXBs or RXBs with shields might not be a bad idea, since they can contribute with shooting while defending the cauldron, can ward off harassment units, and can protect against a charge and redirect the pursuit away from the cauldron if they are properly aligned.

[Bounce]

Hiding the Cauldron in a forest seems kind of Immoral to me. If the Hags were worried about defence they would wear armour. They want everyone to see them sacrificing enemies (or Dark elves) to Khaine not just hide in a forest so flyers can't get them.

If your opponent has a giant flying monster and you want to protect your cauldron get something else to charge the Dragon and at least hold it up or get it to overrun in the opposite direction.

[Zeth]

Well, right, but you are assuming a) the dragon had something better to do

Yup, if it didn't have something better to do you probably already lost.

b) that in those 3 turns before hitting the cauldron, it wasn't doing anything constructive (breath weapon, terror, deterrence, charges of opportunity, etc)

Well it must of charged turn two, so it might of got a breath weapon turn one. Then it was locked in combat for 3 rounds, and as it charged turn two it should not of have arc to charge anything turn 4 (although it can probably breath something).

c) that this action didn't help him strategically in any significant sense in the following 3 turns

I suppose, if I'm getting out played as DE during the movement phase on turns 3 and 4 when 600 of my opponents points and one of the unique (in >3k) units my opponents is fielding that has a large impact on the movement phase is distracted then the problem is not the cauldron dying.

d) that the star dragon taking 200 points was somehow countered somewhere else on the battlefield. All they guy said is the guy had a star dragon, and by turn 3 his cauldron was gone because it was able to get behind his lines.

I'd hope that with an extra 600 points on the board during the first 3 turns I can make something of it. If not, I'd again say the problem was not the cauldron dying.

He wants to know how to protect his asset. It's really up to his judgment in a battle to determine if and when it is worth actually devoting the resources to do so.

I'm aware his question was, I proposed a different perspective on the issue. He seems overly worried about losing those 200 points, I simply suggest that he look at what the cauldron did for those 200 points.

If a star dragon only gets 200 points in 3 turns (and its out of position to charge on turn 4) your doing something right.

But, if you insist on defending it, as has been mentioned, terrain is a major help, and/or a small unit of naked RXBs or RXBs with shields might not be a bad idea, since they can contribute with shooting while defending the cauldron, can ward off harassment units, and can protect against a charge and redirect the pursuit away from the cauldron if they are properly aligned.

Terrain certainly, as Ehakir and Dyvim covered, was trying to propose a additional idea.

As for the RxBs, anything that can kill the Cauldron effectively is just going to go through the RxBs as a single round speed bump. I'd rather spend 110 points working to control the game while the dragon is dealing with my cauldron.

Hiding the Cauldron in a forest seems kind of Immoral to me. If the Hags were worried about defence they would wear armour. They want everyone to see them sacrificing enemies (or Dark elves) to Khaine not just hide in a forest so flyers can't get them.

Your welcome to limit your self to what you consider to be logical based off of fluff, but I've met few people with a real competitive mindset that feel the same.

If your opponent has a giant flying monster and you want to protect your cauldron get something else to charge the Dragon and at least hold it up or get it to overrun in the opposite direction.

The dragon should not be getting an overrun, as it should only be hitting one model at a time, and then stuck in a stubborn 9 unit.

Also, if it does get an overrun (say you lost 2 models to shooting prior) you will have nothing to say about the direction it goes as your crew lines up to the charger.

[Ehakir]

*hint* The dragon might have panicked the whole rest of the army in turn 2 with his terror/breath weapon *hint*

[Tenebrae]

The dragon should not be getting an overrun, as it should only be hitting one model at a time, and then stuck in a stubborn 9 unit.

How do you get that?
Warmachine crews line up when attacked, yes?

[Calibisto]

Hiding the Cauldron in a forest seems kind of Immoral to me. If the Hags were worried about defence they would wear armour. They want everyone to see them sacrificing enemies (or Dark elves) to Khaine not just hide in a forest so flyers can't get them.

The Hag's themselves don't care about their own defence. Their precious cauldron is something else.
I've yet to meet the woman who risks the item(s) that keeps them young and beautiful.

[Bad beast]

The dragon should not be getting an overrun, as it should only be hitting one model at a time, and then stuck in a stubborn 9 unit.

How do you get that?
Warmachine crews line up when attacked, yes?

he means you issue a challenge with the deathhag, who will likely die (unless you roll amazing with her 4+ ward save) and then the dragon is stuck in combat with the remaining 2 crew of the cauldron

[Narius phinshredder]

Sorry about not replying earlier, been at work!

My opponent got to go first, he flew his Dragon forward but kept it close to the edge of the board and landing it cunningly out of LOS of my Black Guard. Turn 2 he charged my COB and did the damage.

To be honest I realize I could have done loads better in slowing the dragon, (Bolt throwers, xbows...) it just seems that if your opponent uses a flyer you have to expend a valuble chunk of your army in protecting the COB. I quite often play against High Elves and my opponent pretty much ALWAYS uses his dragon, which means I take the easy option of using my own Black dragon to counter this. This was the first time I didn't. I like the idea of using a forest as protection, also next time I may keep a small unit of Shades very near by. I've played against an army of VC (Total massacre ) and I like the idea of the Corpse cart moving with the army. Would the COB work this way (Obviously it only moves 5" per turn).

[Ehakir]

Well, you are talking about two war machines with a completely different role. IMO it would be like taking a RBT with your infantery. If you have Khainite infantery, the story is different however, as you will have stubborn infantery because of the cauldron. Otherwise, just leave the caudron in the woods. The range allows it to stay there.

[Zeth]

he means you issue a challenge with the deathhag, who will likely die (unless you roll amazing with her 4+ ward save) and then the dragon is stuck in combat with the remaining 2 crew of the cauldron

Every model in the crew can accept and issue challenges.
One of the changes to the new version the crew are Hag's and not witchelves.
Making them champions just like the casket of souls Tomb Guard.

So if your cauldron gets charged by a dragon, challenge with each hag first, and the D. Hag on the 3rd turn of CC.

[Bounce]

I never thought of that! The Cauldron makes a real good bunker against any monstrous mounts. Pity you can't charge it into a Dragon and hold it up for three turns!. Of course there is always the chance a Hag might survive somehow!

[Gibious]

First hag, turn they charged
Second hag your turn
Death Hag their second turn
Dragon should then be left idle for a nice charge by lets say Killing blow or poison? And you have time to set up that if dragon chooses to flee itle be off the board

[Archdukechocula]

he means you issue a challenge with the deathhag, who will likely die (unless you roll amazing with her 4+ ward save) and then the dragon is stuck in combat with the remaining 2 crew of the cauldron

Every model in the crew can accept and issue challenges.
One of the changes to the new version the crew are Hag's and not witchelves.
Making them champions just like the casket of souls Tomb Guard.

So if your cauldron gets charged by a dragon, challenge with each hag first, and the D. Hag on the 3rd turn of CC.

Ar e you certain that they are considered champions? They aren't a champion unit upgrade, and they aren't listed as champions in the entry, even though they are hags. Is there an FAQ from another race that supports this argument (like for the Casket of Souls as you mentioned)? I don't recall ever seeing that, but it would be an easy thing to forget.