Hydra vs. Cold One Knights

[Ukko]

Hey, so it was brought to my attention recently that a unit of 5 CoK costs more or less the same as a hydra and I was just wondering how people feel they compare. Personally, I see it as about the following

CoK - pros: hit a little harder on the charge, less vulnerable to cannons, BT, etc, more likely to out number and autobreak
- cons: unreliable, less able to take a charge, more cumbersome, only needs to lose three wounds and they're way less effective
Hydra - pros: terror, skirmishers, regeneration's bound to help, can clear out woods, breath attack, doesn't lose it's whole effectiveness until it dies
- cons: can't screen it because it's large, need to hide it from cannons, BT, etc, less standalone, flee and pursue less, can't reack other deployment zone in two turns

I've never actually played with the hydra though so I'd love to hear peoples' own views, experience and preference,
cheers

[Grogsnotpowwabomba]

Another thing to bear in mind is that the Hydra is T5 vs. the CoK being T3.

[Dyvim tvar]

I think that just straight up, the Hydra is better than a unit of 5 CoK.The thing is tough to kill, hits hard, and causes Terror -- which is always good to have.

Knights are great too, but their real advantage over the Hydra is the ability to boost their effectiveness for just a few more points. Standard of Slaughter makes Knights really hit like a ton of bricks. They also benefit more from the +1 attack from the cauldron simply because there are more models in the unit.

[Tizsht]

Aye, per usual I quite agree with Dyvim here, I mean, yes the knights are good, but only if you do a cavalary club list Otherwise go with the hydra, but not just one, go with two...I have not lost a single hydra in four games..they are awesome, dont forget that the beastmaster also get in total of 6 attacks now...not bad at all...that extra wound or two makes all the diffrence in combat res!

[Poopedy]

Well, IMHO you shouldnt be comparing the two. I have always found that there is little point in comparing, as they both can be used to fufill a variety of roles. The dark elf army often needs units to support eachother to work. A hydra needs a unit there to give some static cr (well, with my bad rolling anyways). On the other hand, with a banner, possible outnumbering and possible some fiddly magic items, cok can both kill alot and have cr. The probblem is, they can be stupid and are just as vulnerable to shooting as a hydra. I think either is useful alone, but they would work much better in one army together.

[Raneth]

I used to always favour the Hydra over COKs because of its Skirmisher qualities and overall reliability. Now that it's an even stronger choice, it'll be hard to leave it at home. However, with the DE Army as a whole having a lot more oomph than before, the shock value of the Knights may become more attractive.

Or, y'know, take both.

[Darkspear]

Some probablity (druchii charging)

Target: WS4 T4 4+ save

Cok: (8/9*5/6)+(3/4*1/2*2/3) = 0.99 wounds
5 knights + champ = 5.69 wounds

Hydra: (3/4*2/3*5/6*7)+(3/4*1/3*2/3*4) = 3.58 wounds

I actually prefer the cok as it can provide some static combat res with banner and warbanner. But I use both

[Schlorgadorb]

There's a lot of things that makes the hydra worthwhile above and beyond its combat stats. Its difficult to kill. I once won a game because my hydra with one wound left rallied on the last turn. It has a breath weapon attack. The flame template is ridiculously powerful when given a good trajectory. And it causes terror. It was very nice too see the greatswords flee just by standing near my hydra.
The hydra is also more maneuverable than Cold one Knights, able to turn on the spot and go just as far as if it went straight ahead. And also doesn't have the 1/6th chance to lumber forward stupidly for a turn.

I also use both, since they do work oh so well together. The knights do have their advantages, and they fill their niche as a powerhouse, but I enjoy the hydra more, just because its so much more awesome. Also, I painted mine red, because its a pyrohydra. It does after all breath flames. Which is why its confusing that it doesn't regenerate flaming attacks...

[Crawd]

I've seen the Hydra in action and yes it's strong. However, I don't like when I read: "It's a skirmisher" because it's not a skirmisher, it's a monster that moves like a skirmisher, big difference here, no penalty against the shooting (no big deal here) and no 360 LOS (important fact).

However, the COK have a potential of doing more damage than the Hydra, but it's an option that you'll spend a lot of point into it. (I'm talking about COB + Hydra Banner + Standard of Slaughter which cost a lot)

But still, to compare a rare unit to a special unit, I think it's not really the same. I used COK for a while and they always did what I wanted them to do. Also, the Hydra is feared for now because most people don't know how to deal with it but they know how to deal with the COK so until they know how to deal with the Hydra, the Hydra has the edge for now.

[Zeth]

I think that just straight up, the Hydra is better than a unit of 5 CoK.The thing is tough to kill, hits hard, and causes Terror -- which is always good to have.

Knights are great too, but their real advantage over the Hydra is the ability to boost their effectiveness for just a few more points. Standard of Slaughter makes Knights really hit like a ton of bricks. They also benefit more from the +1 attack from the cauldron simply because there are more models in the unit.

I'd also add that CoK's are mv 7 allowing them to flee and pursue 3d6, and the champion can take magic. I deploy my CoK's in the middle of my army and thus they carry my RoH.


All important advantages, I would not say that the Hydra is just better. CoK's give different tactical options and are more useful in a lot of situations and armies.

I've seen the Hydra in action and yes it's strong. However, I don't like when I read: "It's a skirmisher" because it's not a skirmisher, it's a monster that moves like a skirmisher, big difference here, no penalty against the shooting (no big deal here) and no 360 LOS (important fact).

It is a skirmisher it just does not benefit from specific mentioned bonuses that other skirmishers do, but can break ranks

[Gibious]

well the hydra has been cheapend so i guess both. If forced to chose i guess ill chose my not yet used hydra

[Odium]

If we are still talking about 5 Cok vs 1 Hyrda, the choice for me is hydra hands down. All of you have made some great points so I won't repeat anything, but I will say one thing. Think about how much frontage your army already has. If you don't have a lot the CoK might be better so you can move them around to make sure you get a good charge with all the models.

If you army has some good sized units already than the hydra doesn't need that much room to make a big impact. Charging a unit of troops and a hydra is much easier than a unit of troops and trying to fit a bunch of CoKs in there to get max damage.

The last game I played I had 6 CoK and a hydra. My enemy didn't have many units and I had plenty and when I did get my Cok into combat I could only have 2 touching, but when my hydra fought in a different combat all he had to do was touch the corner of an enemy unit and he gets all his attacks.

[Darkwand]

In my opinion Cold One Knights are perhaps the most useless unit in the whole armylist.

They are expensive, they have stupidity and they're really slow for cavalry.

When making armylists I start by taking two RBTs, a hydra and two chariots.

[Raneth]

I'd also add that CoK's are mv 7 allowing them to flee and pursue 3d6

Shock value

[Demetrius]

I prefer a Hyrda over 6 CoKs (about the same point cost) as its effective on the first round of combat as it is on the last. Although with the right upgrades, COs can be devastating.

[Gibious]

Turning into a flame war here, so curving back on course.

Upgrading the COK is where its at adding a smal magical banner or giving them some magic item (null tali comes to mind) could just tip them over the edge against a basic hydra

[Bbckamaja]

I have 5 CoKin my list and having them have proven very powerfull but also a bit unreliable. In one game i managed to fail 9 out of 11 stupidity test and that totally ruined my game. Since i started to read this tread i have started to paly with an idea of dropping those CoK and having a hydra as my shock element with support of 2 chariots. Since both have same amount of wounds, equally powerful charge (5 S6+5 S4 vs. 7 S5+6 S3) and Hydras survaivibility and prolonged fighting capability is a lot better not to mention terror, flame attack and ability to move trhough terrain without penalty. Having both would be good but if decision is required then it's Hydra. I think they both can be used in same role though I could be wrong in this.

[Holt]

I prefer a Hyrda over 6 CoKs (about the same point cost) as its effective on the first round of combat as it is on the last. Although with the right upgrades, COs can be devastating.

This is the same reason that I like the Hydra ove the CoKs. I use both but the Hydra is alot more durable if I need to hold a unit for a turn or 2 or if im up against other fast moving armies then the Hydra is a bit better at taking a charge, the Coks are not so great at this.

[Silverheimdall]

If you only have one or the other, and no two units of them, both will be main targets for enemy shooting and magic -

The Hydra does not have to take Stupidity but if you lose both beastmasters, it can get ugly for the monster~

Both have their risks, both are good but the Hydra probably outlasts them in the end.

I'm personally going with a Hydra in my list instead of CoK.

[Demetrius]

SilverHeimdall- The Beastmaster can't be killed by shooting and they can only be attacked in combat by max 2 guys each, and once your in combat, the Hydra does fine by itself anyway.

[Walrusm3]

I say cold one knights, thanks to them they pratcially rip through anything. I've won numerous battles thanks to them, can't say much for my hydra experiance

[Silverheimdall]

SilverHeimdall- The Beastmaster can't be killed by shooting and they can only be attacked in combat by max 2 guys each, and once your in combat, the Hydra does fine by itself anyway.

That's where you'Re incredibly wrong.

Itty Ring (Bound spell 'Eadbutt)
Burning Head (Fire)
Pit of Shade (Okay only on 6s against BMs)
Rule of Burning Iron (Metal, okay only S1 against BMs)
Steal Soul (Death)
Hochland Rifles
Any Cannon including Warp-lightning Cannon
Any template attack
Any other sniper attack/spell I be forgetting.

These ranged attacks can all kill beastmasters.

[Calibisto]

... and they're really slow for cavalry.

If I remember correctly they are no slower than other heavy cavalry. A normal horse (not an elven steed) has a movement of 8" of which it loses 1" due to heavy barding. So both steeds give a +2 AS and have a movement of 7".

[Darkwand]

Bretonnian warhorses are 8" and so are high elves. Wild Riders could be classed as heavy cavalry and they're 9".

[Lakissov]

the main advantage that COK have over a hydra is the ability to make them into a steamroller unit by adding characters: e.g. just with warbanner, ring of hotek and Hydra Banner BSB, 5 COK become a unit that breaks most ranked infantry from the front; hydra is better for its points, but doesn't have the option for upgrades.