RBTs, Hydras or both?

[Pasch]

Keeping individual notions of cheapness aside, which do you folks prefer in your 2000-2250 point armies? I go up against some pretty brutal lists so I'm not particularly concerned with being nice about my list either.

4 RBTs or 2 RBTs + 1 Hydra or 2 Hydras?

Myself I've been fielding 2 RBTs + 1 Hydra in almost all of my games, but I've been debating about dropping the bolt throwers and grabbing another hydra.

My list usually isn't very shooty, consisting of 2x10 RXBs and 1 Dark Rider unit and the 2 bolt throwers. My bolt throwers rarely seem to get their points worth, while my Hydra has always been a great performer.

For reference my friends usually play Chaos Mortals, Dwarves, High Elves, Daemons of Chaos and Vampire Counts.

My primary concern with dropping the bolt throwers is that I'll have fewer options against Greater Daemons, Chaos Knights and other similar units.

Do you find the Hydra equally viable against these threats?

[Kheel]

Depends on what you are facing, and what you want your army to do.

Think like this -
Can my hydra/bolt thrower give me its own points from killing? Or do I think that my bolt throwers can take down a greater number of points than a Hydra?

Once you have answered those two questions, go to this.
What do I really need?

I love to field both, together they put up a greater threat, that is my personal opinion.
The huge range of bolts will most likely make them able to reach your first shooting face.
Any large target in your opponents force can be taken down byt two bolt throwers in your first turn. I have raped treemen, giants and slann priests like this the first turn.

The hydra can do alot once it reach its destination, and sicne it is slightly faster than normal troops, it makes for a decent flanker.

So, if its less likely to be any major good targets for your bolt throwers, go with 2 hydras, if there are in fact alot of big things you want to shoot away before you get into hand to hand combat, take 4 bolt throwers.

It all comes down to what you are facing really, and what the rest of your army looks like

[Duke daedric]

Versality is the key! 2RBTs + Hydra should do the trick..

If you want to be rude you could take 2 Hydras but that is a game killer.. Remember that warhammer is a game and being that it should be fun to both players.. Some people tend to forget that important point..

I like my RBTs, they don't give back their point usually, but putting constant pressure on my opponents is worth something after all.

That being said the choice is yours mate.. ENJOY!

[Irtehdar]

For me it is all about the opposition. Im favouring the 2x RBT+1x Hydra though. The rare choices are awesome for different purposes so for me it really depends on my opponent. (and my gameplan)
So I would choose according to what Ill need the most.

[Demetrius]

2 Hydras all the way! They are easily the best unit in our army list, and 2 of them is just brutal.

[Caboose]

I have tried all three.... 4 RBTs, 2 RBTs and a Hydra, and 2 Hydra's. I have to say that as much as I love my RBTs, they just never seem to be as effective as I would like them to be.....Not to mention, that most the people I play against can have pretty bad attitudes at times.....So I have been leaning more towards taking my two Hydras.....The more they complain, the more I use it. lol

I thought the 2 RBT's and 1 Hydra was rather versatile and gave me, "The best of both worlds." so to speak. RBT's may not "earn their points back," but they make your opponent rather uncomfortable when being shot by them. No one likes seeing multiple dice being picked up to shoot at their stuff. lol

Although, I have to admit. I get complaints no matter what....I took 4 RBT's, 30 RxBmen, 5 DR's w/ RxB's, and they complained about that.....so I guess the best bet is to take nothing I guess?? lol

I love the game, I play it for fun, but when all I hear is complaining about the new DE Book, it makes me want to bury them. lol But that's just me.

[Keeper of the cauldron]

Caboose, sounds like you need new people to play. Don't let bad attitudes get you down. Continue playing for fun and not only to win. You'll be a better player in the long run.

[Necrah]

I usually find that the RBT's don't make up their points by killing, but give you more controll over the battle. They usually force your opponent to try and engage their units in close combat sooner (especially calvery) then they would prefer. Since calvery get pwned by RBT's, they won't wait to make flank charges and just go streight into a unit. I played both and found that I had more control on which units I could engage in close combat.

[Brad]

Since calvery get pwned by RBT's

Psychologically maybe, if your opponent is a knob. You're lucky to kill one knight a turn with an RBT - there's no way you get your points back* before the knights hit your lines; you don't even greatly reduce their effectiveness.

*Assuming a modest 30-odd pt per model knight. Against them billion pts each VC knights it might be worth the effort.

[Irtehdar]

get your points back

I never understood this point but alot of people are happy to throw that expression around. By that logic you would never play the game unless you are certain you kill every last enemy model on the table before the game ends. Theres very few units in the entire game that can actually ''get your points back''.

Supreme Sorc's rarely kill for 300 pts in a game.
Dreadlords rarely kill for 300 pts in a game.
Sorc's rarely kill for 200 pts in a game.
RxB's wont kill their pts value in a game.
Spears wont kill their pts value in a game.
DR's hardly ever kill even close to their pts value.
Assassins will occationally kill back their pts if they get their hands on some magicians. (YAY)
Harpies can take out war machines. (YAY)
CoK rarely kill their pts value.
CoC almost never kill their value.
WE's, Exec's, BG's and shades almost never kill enough to earn back their pts.
Hydras almost never kill back their pts.
RBT's can sometimes kill back their pts.

So if you want your units to kill back their pts your down to HarpiesRBT's and Assassins.
By the ''earn back your points'' logic every enemy model still standing on the table by the end of the game translates into 1 DE model that didnt earn back its pts and therefor is unworthy to ever get on the table again. You will have to beat it with a hammer before you throw it in the trash.

PS: sorry for derailing the topic

[Alasanii]

Irtehdar: I think they are talking about the potential to earn back their points, or at least that is what I think of when deciding what to use.

In regards to the actual topic here, I would say that 2RBT and 1 Hydra should do the trick. That way you have some flames to potentially burn your opponent and put up a nice flank attack, oh and don't forget the TERROR, and then you have some semi-heavy artillery that will make your opponent think twice about where they want to move.

To me that would be your best bet, but then again, the choice is yours.

[Kirkrapine]

At the risk of being pedantic, melee is far more likely to get its points back than ranged, as it is easier for units to break and be subsequently run down than a unit to break and flee off the table from shooting. Attacks (ranged or melee) to kills is not a direct conversion. Leadership plays the vital role in determining if you can earn your points back. Skeletons, for instance, in my VC lists ALWAYS make their points back.

[Von_wibble]

I don't rate RBT at all. I see little they can achieve that can't be done by dark riders and harpies - and the latter are core and won't die easily unless I want them to.

The Hydra otoh provides a scary anvil and has its own high S firepower. In most of my armies I have 1 hydra and no rbt. I invest my points in more troops elsewhere instead.

[Gruff]

I feel like having 2 RBTs is priceless. They may not "make their points back" against every enemy, but when you take down a large target or a unit of heavy cav that would run right through you... it's worth it. Or when you pump a small enemy elite unit full of bolts and destroy what would otherwise be a significant threat... I know I would rather spend 200 pts to kill a unit of 12 swordmasters than have that same unit plow through my battle line.

[Tich]

on the topic of getting there points back, its not only just killing enough to make it worth it, its also staying alive to deny their getting VP.

[Fr0]

2 bolt throwers and a hydra have done be quite well for some time.

[Duffman327]

2 hydrae they can really soak of the fire power and my god they hit hard with 7 attacks each. have one support the other and be mindful of cannons and there really isnt much that will stand up to it.