Cult of Slaanesh - Magic Items & Chaos Gifts

[Weenth]

<I've edited this post to include summary first>

CoS MAGIC ITEMS, DAEMONIC & CHAOS GIFTS SUMMARY


ACCESS TO THE LISTS

1. Magic Items
Unmarked Druchii characters & units:
Common MI, Treasures of Naggaroth

Marked Druchii characters & units (including Anointed):
Common MI, Treasures of Naggaroth, Artefacts of Slaanesh

Marauder Warlord & Mortal Chaos units:
Common MI, Artefacts of Slaanesh


2. Chaos Gifts
Can be taken by:
Anointed, Marauder Warlord


3. Daemonic Gifts & Icons
Can be taken by:
Daemonic characters & units

<Leaving out specific character item/gift point allowance, to be discussed first in 'AL entries' topic; same with magical banner/daemonic icon allowance>




MAGIC ITEMS

COMMON MAGIC ITEMS

Magic Weapons
15 - Sword of Striking
15 - Sword of Battle
15 - Sword of Might
5 - Biting Blade

Magic Armour
15 - Enchanted Shield

Talismans
15 - Talisman of Protection

Arcane Items
35 - Staff of Sorcery
25 - Dispell Scroll
20 - Power Stone

Magic Banners
25 - War Banner



TREASURES OF NAGGAROTH

Magic Weapons
50 - Sword of Ruin
50 - Chillblade
35 - Heartseeker
35 - Hydra Blade
35 - Caledor’s Bane
30 - Dagger of Hotek
30 - Lifetaker
25 - Deathpiercer

Magic Armour
60 - Armour of the Living Death
25 - Armour of Darkness
25 - Shield of Ghrond
15 - Blood Armour

Talismans
70 - Black Amulet
40 - Ring of Darkness
35 - Pendant of Khaeleth (optional rule - cannot be combined with armour)
25 - Pearl of Infinite Bleakness
25 - Ring of Hotek
15 - Null Talisman

Arcane Items
55 - Black Staff
25 - Focus Familiar
25 - Darkstar Cloak
25 - Sacrificial Dagger
15 - Tome of Furion

Enchanted Items
40 - The Hydra’s Teeth
35 - Crystal of Midnight
30 - Black Dragon Egg
30 - Potion of Strength
25 - Gem of Nightmares
25 - The Guiding Eye

Magic Standards
75 - Hydra Banner
35 - Standard of Slaughter
25 - Banner of Murder
15 - Banner of Cold Blood



ARTEFACTS OF SLAANESH

Magic Weapons
75 - Chaos Daemon Sword
65 - Sword of Change
45 - Rapier of Ecstasy
30 - Rending Sword
25 - Whip of Subversion

Magic Armour
45 - Armour of Damnation
40 - The Crimson Armour of Dargan
35 - Armour of Morrslieb

Talismans
50 - The Beguiling Gem
50 - Crown of Everlasting Conquest
25 - Blasphemous Amulet

Arcane Items
50 - Skull of Katam
35 - Infernal Puppet
20 - Warrior Familiar

Enchanted Items
45 - Rod of Torment
30 - Crystal of Decievers
25 - Book of Secrets
25 - Helm of Many Eyes
20 - Pendant of Slaanesh
5 - Favour of the Gods (*only included if we use Eye of Gods/Slaanesh table)

Magic Banners
125 - Banner of the Slaanesh Cult
45 - Banner of Wrath
35 - Quickening Banner
20 - Rapturous Standard



NEW ITEMS (underlined in Artefacts of Slaanesh list)

Crystal of Decievers <Enchanted Item, 30 pts>
When looking deep within this gemstone little daemonette-like creatures can be seen. When sent by the owner, they will gladly gather around any spellcaster, luring him with promises and distracting attention.
At the begining of enemy magic phase nominate one wizard, who must surrender one of his power dice.


Banner of the Slaanesh Cult <Magical Banner, 125 pts>
Usualy a part of altar in the secret temple of Slaanesh in Ghrond and depicting Slaanesh himself, this banner mesmerizes Cult’s enemies with its otherworldy beauty
Any enemy whishing to attack bearer or unit he’s with must first pass a Ld test with -1 modifier or is unable to attack and has his WS reduced to 1 until the end of this CC turn; all friendly units within 12” become stubborn. In addition, bearer works as a binder for daemons within 12”.
<Serving the ‘Whole-Army-Banner’ role in place of BoN; still not sure about effect, it may be overpowered (maybe remove -1 modifier? WS reduction? Both? Maybe different effect altogether?)>


Quickening Banner <Magical Banner, 35 pts; Druchii units only>
Pleasure God's blessing upon this standard enhances natural traits of his Druchii followers, granting them with unnatural swiftness and speed.
All models in the unit containing the Quickening Banner gain the Always Strikes First rule.




SLAANESHI CHAOS GIFTS
(selected WoC gifts in cyan, original anointed gifts in violet, original 'Slaanesh Only' gifts in white, comments in brackets)

40 - Distendable Maw [in]
40 - Word of Agony [Slaaneshii fluff - definitly in]
35 - Avatar of Slaanesh [original CoS gift]
35 - Diabolic Splendour [replaces very similar 6th ed Aura of Slaanesh gift - definitly in]
30 - Narcotic Fumes [renamed 6th ed 'Slaaensh only' gift]
25 - Aura of Slaanesh [renamed original CoS gift]
25 - Quickening Blood [original CoS gift]
20 - Gaze of Acquiescence [original 6th ed 'Slaanesh only' gift]
20 - Soporific Musk [suggests Slaanesh-fluff - definitly in]
20 - Bloodcurdling Roar [in]
15 - Acid Ichor [in]



As 6th CoS .pdf is no longer available at GW site, below are brief desriptions of Anointed Chaos Gifts:

Quickening Blood (25) - ASF

Avatar of Slaanesh (35) - allows to re-roll break tests to Marked units within 12" (including himself)

Aura of Slaanesh [Original name: 'Allure of Slaanesh'; changed due to daemonic gift of the same name] (25) - enemy who wants to shoot at him must pass a Ld test first; if failed can't shoot at all this turn



Also brief descirption of 6th ed. Slaanesh Only gifts:

Narcotic Fumes [Original name: 'Soporific Musk'; changed due to totally different working new gift of the same name] (30) - halve enemy's WS and I in B2B contact (rounding up)

Gaze of Acquiescence (20) - enemy who wants to attack him in CC must pass a Ld test first; if failed can't make any attacks at all this turn;

<GoA is basicaly same as 25 pt 'Allure of Slaanesh' DoC daemonic gift; this one is Chaos gift instead, but still would upper its cost to 25 pts>


SLAANESHI DAEMONIC GIFTS
(Who can take each is given in brackets)

100 - Spirit Swallower (KoS)
50 - Etherblade (KoS, Herald)
50 - Many Armed Monstrosity (Herald)
50 - Temptator (KoS)
25 - Allure of Slaanesh (KoS, Herald)
25 - Daemonic Robes (KoS, Herald)
25 - Enrapturing Gaze (KoS, Herald)
25 - Siren Song (KoS, Herald)
25 - Soul Hunger (KoS)
25 - Soporific Musk (KoS, Herald)
5 - Torment Blade (KoS, Herald)


SLAANESHI DAEMONIC ICONS
(Can be taken by Daemonette and Seeker units)

25 - Banner of Ecstasy
25 - Siren Standard




END OF SUMMARY

---------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so here are my thoughts on magic items for Cult of Slaanesh (main discussion can be found here)

In 6th ed CoS used 4 Magic Item categories:
- common (all characters/units)
- dark elf (DE characters/units, including Anointed)
- Slaanesh mark only chaos (Anointed, aspiring Chaos champion, all marked units)
- non-aligned chaos (aspiring Chaos champion, Chaos mortals units)


Now, DE magic item list was exactly as in 6th ed AB, except few items were added. Still, none - even those with fluff clearly showing their belonging to Khaine Cult were taken out.
7th ed has removed some items and introduced a couple of new ones, but still there are many which don’t fit Cult of Slaanesh fluff.

As for Chaos Items, in 6th ed there were 7 ‘Slaanesh mark only’ and 16 ‘unaligned’ items. In 7th ed with the all-4-in-1 inclination of new WoC AB there are no ‘Slaanesh only’ items and only one which name or fluff-text mentions Slaanesh. Still, there are those whose fluff-text mentions one of other main Chaos gods, those with either fluff or name suggesting Slaaneshii origin (like ‘Rapier of Ecstasy’) and finally of those which have neither, some were also included in 6th ed HoC and have their belonging described clearly there.

Also, some weapons in common items list now differ in price between DE and WoC armybooks.

So if we follow exactly 6th ed divition we have:
- one list with two price variants
- two list with a couple of unfluffy items
- one practicaly non-existant list



My proposition - make 3 item lists:
* Common (following prices from DE AB) - available to all characters/units
<this means marauder warlord will get some basic magic weapons a litlle bit cheaper than chaos champions, but on the other hand he is more limited in both normal and themed magical equippement>

* Dark Elf „Treasures of Naggaroth” (cut down DE AB list) - available to DE characters/units (including Anointed)

* Slaaneshii Chaos „Artefacts of Slaanesh” (cut down WoC AB list) - available to Anointed, Marauder Warlord and units with Mark of Slaanesh; Arcane Items also available to marked Sorceresses (and Supreme Sorceresses of course)
<as mentioned before this means MW will have less choice than normal WoC characters; on the other hand he’s just a leader of marauder tribe, not a Warrior, who fights deep inside Chaos Wastes and has a bit cheaper common magic weapons than them;
Anointed will have about the same choice as in 6th ed (not giving exact numbers here, but if anyone’s interested in them, let me know );
Sorceresses will have more in the way of Arcane Items while cut down on Weapons (mostly) and Enchanted Items (a little bit - only 1 item left out), which I guess is ok>


- reasons to cut out items:

* unfluffy - items with khainite fluff or otherwise unfitting CoS (like magical seadragon cloak) from DE; items with Nurgle/Khorne/Tzeentch fluff/rules, either in 7th WoC or 6th HoC (if they appeared there), also items with otherwise unfitting fluff (i.e. corrupted Dwarf/Chaos Dwarf origin).

* indentical or very similar effect - if DE and Slaaneshii Artefacts items double each other one of them should go (usualy the Chaos one)


- also I’ve added 2 new items - very few of them, as I think they should only appear where evidently needed (due to removal of unique and important, but unfluffy item); belong to Slaaneshii Artefacts list so that only marked DE can take them (as IMO fits Cult-unique items).


So, enough of introduction, here goes the list of removed items <reason in brackets>; If you don’t feel like reading it all skip down to the list of doubful items and/or proposed list of items for CoS.

(for an ease of reference I kept orignal sequence of item types from both ABs, although they’re different. I belive that in future CoS manuscript it’s best to keep GW approach which seems to be ‘try: Weapons, Armour, Talismans, Enchanted, Arcane Banners but change it to avoid page-splitting of category’ )




REMOVED ITEMS

TREASURES OF NAGGAROTH

Enchanted Items
Deathmask <khainite background>

Magic Weapons
Executioner’s Axe <khainite background>
Web of Shadows <khainite background>
Crimson Death <black guard background>
Whip of Agony <beastmaster’s scourage; also Beastlord Rakarth background>
Soulrender <khainite background>

Magic Armour
Armour of Eternal Servitude <khainite background>
Cloak of Har Graef <sea dragon cloak>

Talismans
Seal of Ghron <khainite background>

Magic Standards
Banner of Nagarythe <Malekith background>
Dread Banner <khainite background>
Sea Serpent Standard <no corsair units>


ARTEFACTS OF CHAOS GODS

Magic Weapons
Chaos Runesword <Dwarf background>
Berserker Sword <Khorne bacground>
Aethersword <doubles Sword of Ruin>
Axe of Khorne <guess >
Filth Mace <6th ed. Nurgle only item>

Magic Armour
Skinhidden Plate <+1 to T for 60 pts so similar both to Armour of Living Death and Shield of Ghrond, being IMO worst choice of the three; also it’s fluff says it gives ‘a terribly distorted appearance’>
Chaos Runeshield <Chaos Dwarf background>

Talismans
Collar of Khorne <quite obvious again>
Golden Eye of Tzeentch <this one too>
Necrotic Phylactery <Nurgle background>

Arcane Items
Blood of Tzeentch <another one>
Power Familiar <very similar to Darkstar Cloak, only gives +1 to pool, not wizard; same price; so better, but available only to characters with MoS>
Spell Familiar <identical effect to Tome of Furion; while ToF might not be fluffwise crutial for CoS, it’s not a problem either and can be used with other lore than Slaanesh, so I say: let the familiar go! >

Enchanted Items
Bloodskull Pendant <Khorne background>
Death’s Head <Nurgle background>

Magic Banners
Banner of the Gods <above 50 pts, so Chaos BSB only; also Chaos Dwarf background>
Doom Totem <above 50 pts>
Blasted Standard <6th ed Tzeentch only item>
Banner of Rage <6th ed Khorne only item>
Festering Shroud <6th ed Nurgle only item>




DOUBTFUL ITEMS
List of items I have doubts of (all included in final list below for reference; the ones I rather think should stay - in cyan; the ones I rather think should go - in blue)

TREASURES OF NAGGAROTH

Enchanted Items
The Hydra’s Teeth; Black Dragon Egg <I belive these can stay - there are no Hydras or Dragons in the army, but so are there no Trolls or Griffons and still Potion of Strength is there >

Magic Weapons
Hydra Blade <fluff hints that name comes from effect rather than item’s origin so IMO can stay>

Magic Standards
Hydra Banner <again hydra-fluff item, this one about ‘Hekarti the Hydra Queen’ who/whatever she is; still - can stay I suppose>
Standard of Hag Graef <a city not connected particulary with CoS, nor Cult of Khaine; effect fits CoS army; I’d leave it or replace with Slaneshii standard with identical effect>


ARTEFACTS OF CHAOS GODS

Magic Weapons
Hellfire Sword <flame forged into a blade - while i doesn’t contradict fluff, it isn’t particulary Slaaneshii; not sure, but rather leave it out>
The Father of Blades <’It is rumoured that this acient and filth-encrusted blade was the first sword ever to be forged’- also not particulary Slaaneshii; rather think it should be out>
Rending Sword <re-roll to wound, 30 pts; similar to Heartseeker; still, not the same and costing below 50 pts it’s an option for MW>
Glaive of Putrification <’ages its pray at an incredible rate’ - fits undead even more than any Chaos God actually I dunno... should it go?>

Magic Armour
The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk <’Zhrakk was the scourage of Empire in its foundling days’ ItP, immune to KB and Poison, but cannot confer his Ld to others; again not sure what to do about it>

Arcane Items
The Black Tongue <cut out tongue of Aekold Helbrass, Tzeentchian Champion, to work requires covering it bearer’s blood; changes enemy’s failed spell to miscast and also 1 wound on bearer; one use... IMO more of a khornate thing... I’d leave it out>

Enchanted Items
Favour of the Gods <affects Eye of Gods table, so should stay if CoS list uses it, and go otherwise; as there’s a lot of other things to discuss right now I’d leave on the list and discuss this topic later>




NEW ITEMS (Artefacts of Slaanesh list) (also included in the final list, in italics)

*Crystal of Decievers <Enchanted Item, 30 pts>
When looking deep within this gemstone little daemonette-like creatures can be seen. When sent by the owner, they will gladly gather around any spellcaster, luring him with promises and distracting attention
At the begining of enemy magic phase nominate one wizard, who must surrender one of his power dice.
<Something was needed in place of SoG and its +1DD; I think this item - while a bit different - serves as good and is IMO fluffy; although fluff text (and maybe name) might need some change - writer help wanted >

*Banner of the Slaanesh Cult <Magical Banner, 125 pts>
Usualy a part of altar in the secret temple of Slaanesh in Ghrond and depicting Slaanesh himself, this banner mesmerizes Cult’s enemies with its otherworldy beauty
Any enemy whishing to attack bearer or unit he’s with must first pass a Ld test with -1 modifier or is unable to attack and has his WS reduced to 1 until the end of this CC turn; all friendly units within 12” become stubborn. In addition, bearer works as a binder for daemons within 12”.
<Serving the ‘Whole-Army-Banner’ role in place of BoN; still not sure about effect, it may be overpowered (maybe remove -1 modifier? WS reduction? Both? Maybe different effect altogether?)>




FINAL LIST
Don’t want to give full rules here, so just point values given for orientation (they haven’t changed), effect of WoC items can be checked in the summary link, DE Items I assume everyone can check in their own AB.


COMMON MAGIC ITEMS - as in DE AB


TREASURES OF NAGGAROTH

Enchanted Items
40 - The Hydra’s Teeth
35 - Crystal of Midnight
30 - Black Dragon Egg
30 - Potion of Strength
25 - Gem of Nightmares
25 - The Guiding Eye

Magic Weapons
50 - Sword of Ruin
50 - Chillblade
35 - Heartseeker
35 - Hydra Blade
35 - Caledor’s Bane
30 - Dagger of Hotek
30 - Lifetaker
25 - Deathpiercer

Magic Armour
60 - Armour of the Living Death
25 - Armour of Darkness
25 - Shield of Ghrond
15 - Blood Armour

Talismans
70 - Black Amulet
40 - Ring of Darkness
35 - Pendant of Khaeleth (optional rule - cannot be combined with armour)
25 - Pearl of Infinite Bleakness
25 - Ring of Hotek
15 - Null Talisman

Arcane Items
55 - Black Staff
25 - Focus Familiar
25 - Darkstar Cloak
25 - Sacrificial Dagger
15 - Tome of Furion

Magic Standards
75 - Hydra Banner
35 - Standard of Slaughter
35 - Standard of Hag Graef
25 - Banner of Murder
15 - Banner of Cold Blood


ARTEFACTS OF SLAANESH

Magic Weapons
75 - Chaos Daemon Sword
75 - Hellfire Sword
65 - Sword of Change
45 - Rapier of Ecstasy
40 - The Father of the Blades
30 - Rending Sword
25 - Whip of Subversion
25 - Glaive of Putrification

Magic Armour
45 - Armour of Damnation
40 - The Crimson Armour of Dargan
35 - Armour of Morrslieb
15 - The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk

Talismans
50 - The Beguiling Gem
50 - Crown of Everlasting Conquest
50 - The Black Tongue
25 - Blasphemous Amulet

Arcane Items
50 - Skull of Katam
35 - Infernal Puppet
20 - Warrior Familiar

Enchanted Items
45 - Rod of Torment
30 - Crystal of Decievers
25 - Book of Secrets
25 - Helm of Many Eyes
20 - Pendant of Slaanesh
5 - Favour of the Gods

Magic Banners
125 - Banner of the Slaanesh Cult
45 - Banner of Wrath
20 - Rapturous Standard


Whew, that was one long post. Wanted to include also ideas for Chaos Gifts, but I think this will have to wait a for while...

Final note - I focused on fluff-corectness, number and general balance of available options, so had only short time to think of potential cheesy combos resulting from allowing some characters (Anointed especially) access to both lists. If you see any, let me know. Any other comments are welcome as wel, especially on the ‘doubtful’ and new items.

[Martialartist]

Here's what I posted in regards to Magic Items and gifts in the other thread

Magic Items
- A bound spell that casts Slaaneshi Lore #2

- A bound spell that casts Slaaneshi Lore #3

Boots of Speed? - Grants ASF and 6+ Ward save

Icon of Binding - Allows one more demonic unit to be bound to the character than usual, can take from no units bound to one unit bound.

Demonic Skills/Gifts
Dancing Gait - Model gains +1/2/3? Movement.

Mirage? - Models attacking the bearer in CC (thats what I'll refer to the model with the skill as) suffer -2WS and shooting suffers -2BS.

Echoing Call (one use only) - (the bearer lets out a call that reverbrates through the ether drawing nearby demons into reality) Summons a unit of 5 Daemonettes that appear anywhere within 12" of the bearer. Function from then on as a regular Daemonette unit.

Reality Switch (Sorcs and High Sorcs only, one use only) - (the bearer is capable of temporarily switching bodies with a nearby demon in the warp) For a single round of combat only while blows are being struck, the model is assumed to have in all regards been replaced by a Daemonette Alluress. This regards stats, special rules and equipment, but only while both sides are attacking. Should the Alluress be slain, both the Sorceress and Alluress are removed as casualties and both count for combat resolution. Should the Alluress survive, before counting combat res replace the Alluress with the usual Sorceress. The alluress does not count as a casualty. Enemy units never have to suffer any effects caused by FEAR of the temporary alluress.

Disturbing Truth/Word? (one use only) - (the bearer screeches a sound of pure Chaos that strikes fear and panic into the hearts of nearby enemy soldiers, making them believe the battle is lost, I envisage this like a Slaaneshi Word Of Pain) Choose one enemy unit within 12" of the bearer. This unit must immeadiately test for panic with a -1 leadership penalty, even if immune to psychology.

Steed Of Will (Sorcs/High Sorcs only) - (the bearer is capable of pulling a Steed Of Slaanesh into reality using only the power of their will, allowing them to use its speed to move them rapidly across the battlefield) Bearer way choose to summon a Steed Of slaanesh at the start of each turn. If so, the bearer counts as mounted on a steed for all purposes for the rest of the turn. At the end of the Cult players turn the Steed vanishes back into the warp, and the Sorceresses does not count as mounted for the opponents turn. The steed may be resummoned in consecutive turns if the Cult player so wishes.

Aura Of the Dark Prince - (the bearer is surrounded by an aura of pink energy, which lashes out at opponents that come near enough) in each round of CC, before blows are struck and impact hits resolved, each model touching the bearer suffers one S3- Banner that absorbs spell targeting unit on 4+ and then may be cast as bound spell by the cult player in next magic phase.

- (Champion Of Slaanesh) +1 to hit and to wound in challenges. In addition, once the model has slain an opponent in a challenge, all enemies will hate and fear the slayer.

- Shielding Banner - 2/3 magic resistance.

Some of them I quite like, especially the ones like "Echoing Call", "Reality Switch" and "Disturbing Truth". They would all be unique CoS items. Just my ideas.

Weenth: You seem to have the right ideas as what to include and what not to. I'd pretty much go with what you have.

MA

[Weenth]

Ok, so here are my thougths on Chaos Gifts in CoS; as usual - first on general level:

1. In 6th ed there were 2 sub-sets of Gifts:
- unique Anointed ChG (3 of them)
- Slaaneshii Daemonic ChG - again available to Anointed only (again 3 of them)

2. In 7th ed, as daemons are out of HoC book, warriors got their own ChG list (which also means every character gets to use some). As with magic items, none of these is restricted to specific mark and most of these are not connected to specific god (though some are in their name/description, or at least suggest link to specific god).

3. My proposition - create one list of Slaaneshi Chaos Gifts - this would be WoC list with unfluffy options removed and 3 original 6th ed CoS gifts included with 'Anointed Only' restriction. Also thought about including those 'Slaanesh Mark only' gifts from 6th ed which don't have 7th ed counterpart... although that's maybe too much choice. Or maybe reduce choice by including only Slaneshii-fluff gifts from 7th ed WoC together with original 6 gifts available to Anointed?

Basing on WoC character options - Anointed, as a Lord choic can take up to 50 pts of gifts and Marauder Warlord up to 25 pts, so that at also puts some restictions on the list.


So, here's the list:
(gifts to be left out in blue, gifts to remain in cyan, original anointed gifts in violet, original 'Slaanesh Only' gifts in white, dobutful in yellow, comments in brackets; decription of how each gift works can be found in the summary linked in the first post)

SLAANESHI CHAOS GIFTS
75 - Mantle of Chaos [75 pts - out]
40 - Tendrils of Tzeenth [unfluffy - out]
40 - Distendable Maw [in]
40 - Word of Agony [Slaaneshii fluff - definitly in]
35 - Avatar of Slaanesh [original CoS gift]
35 - Diabolic Splendour [in]
30 - Aura of Slaanesh [6th ed 'Slaanesh only' gift; very similar to Diabolic Splendour - out?]
30 - Narcotic Fumes [renamed 6th ed 'Slaaensh only' gift]
25 - Aura of Slaanesh [renamed original CoS gift]
25 - Quickening Blood [original CoS gift]
25 - Third Eye of Tzeentch [unfluffy - out]
20 - Gaze of Acquiescence [original 6th ed 'Slaanesh only' gift]
20 - Stream of Corruption [suggests Nurgle-fluff - out]
20 - Soporific Musk [suggests Slaanesh-fluff - definitly in]
20 - Bloodcurdling Roar [in]
20 - Conjoined Homunculus (Sorcerers only) [not sure on this one.. "The favoured one has a tiny homunculus sprouting from his body, a vile simulacrum that squeals the mind-numbing secrets of Chaos on command."... a bit Tzeentch-like maybe, but not nessecearly... should stay?]
20 - Fury of the Blood God [Khorne-fluff - out]
15 - Acid Ichor [in]

As 6th CoS .pdf is no longer available at GW site, below are brief desriptions of Anointed Chaos Gifts:
Quickening Blood (25) - ASF
Avatar of Slaanesh (35) - allows to re-roll break tests to Marked units within 12" (including himself)
Allure of Slaanesh [Renamed to Aura of Slaanesh, due to daemonic gift of the same name] (25) - enemy who wants to shoot at him must pass a Ld test first; if failed can't shoot at all this turn

Also brief descirption of 6th ed. Slaanesh Only gifts:
Aura of Slaanesh (30) - Enemy -1 Ld in B2B contact (very similar to new 'Diabolic Splendour', so I'd leave it out)
Soporific Musk [Renamed to Narcotic Fumes, due to totally different working new gift of the same name] (30) - halve enemy's WS and I in B2B contact (rounding up)
Gaze of Acquiescence (20) - enemy who wants to attack him in CC must pass a Ld test first; if failed can't make any attacks at all this turn




@MartialArtist - I think we're spoilt on choice with both Magic Items and - especially - Gifts, so I believe focus should be on 'what to remove' rather than new ideas here. None the less, some of your ideas are very fluffy IMO and it would be a loss not to use them. I think a good solution is to make them elements of new Special Characters.

Specific comments below (comments only on the ideas I like or have problem with):

- Bound item with Spell 2 ('Hellshriek' I assume - not sure which Lore you refer to) - I like this idea Might be more interesing IMO if a property of character, not an item. Maybe even remove the need of bound-casting it and make it a 'one use only' special rule?

- Boots of Speed - interesting effect, would change the name though

- Icon of Binding - I do like the idea of item working with binding rules very much. Needs fiting new version of binding rules though, so maybe make it something like 'allows wearer to bind daemons within 18" (or 24"?)'?

- Dancing Gait - to keep in line with last few ABs, I believ simple stat bonuses should be left for other things than Items/Gifts.

- Reality Switch - this one seems unfluffy to me - as daemons don't have material bodies as such (as their warpspace-bodies are made of magic) this would be not so mach 'switching' as letting a daemonette to posess the Sorceress - a thing she would rather avoid than voluntary do.

- Disturbing Truth - interesting, although very similiar to 'Hellshirek' bound item

- Echoing Call - I like it; nice idea, for a Lord level character rather - as 5 Daemonettes is equivalent of 60 pts

[Kyrel]

MartialArtist. A small request for when you post. If you are making a list like the above magical item list, could you PLEASE try and either break it up with an extra free line inserted, or alternatively just mark out the title of the new item. The way you write it makes it a royal pain to try and read. Nothing personal

[Martialartist]

Kyrel: thank you for telling me, as I really wouldn't notice otherwise and it must have been super hard to read through all my stuff. I've edited the above post and will remember to split them up in future.

Weenth: "Hellshriek" is that in new WoC cos I haven't had a look at that yet, but if that is #2 slaanesh spell that was sort of the effect I was going for.

You also seem to have most of those gifts, items etc. under control. Can't check everything but you seem to be doing a pretty good job. Could you post a summary of how many points of items/gifts etc. each character would have, and from which lists (Updated Treasures of Naggaroth, Slaaneshi gifts etc.) they'd be able to choose as I'm a little lost on who gets what choices....

MA

[Weenth]

Weenth: "Hellshriek" is that in new WoC cos I haven't had a look at that yet, but if that is #2 slaanesh spell that was sort of the effect I was going for.

Yes, it's in the new Lore of Slaanesh from WoC. If you don't have access to the book, you can always use the link from the first post of this topic - there's little in the way of fluff there, but most of the rules, including spell lores.

You also seem to have most of those gifts, items etc. under control. Can't check everything but you seem to be doing a pretty good job. Could you post a summary of how many points of items/gifts etc. each character would have, and from which lists (Updated Treasures of Naggaroth, Slaaneshi gifts etc.) they'd be able to choose as I'm a little lost on who gets what choices....

Ok, it goes like this:

- Common items are items from the rulebook with DE AB prices
- DE items means new shortend Treasures of Naggaroth list
- Slaanesh items is the new Artefacts of Slaanesh list
- Chaos Gifts is modified list of gift from WoC given above
- Daemonic Gifts is list from DoC (only options available to KoS and herald included of course, so also shortened)

LORDS
Keeper of the Secrets: 100 pts of Daemonic Gifts
Supreme Sorceress: 100 pts of Common and DE items; if marked may also take (only Arcane) Slaanesh items.
or should it be simply "if marked may take Slaanesh items?" this would give her bigger item choice than in original DE list, but she's kinda the most important charcter fluff-wise here
Anointed: 100 pts of Common, DE or Slaanesh items; 50 pts of Chaos Gifts

HEROES
Master: 50 pts of Common and DE items; if marked may also take Slaanesh items
Sorceress: 50 pts of Common and DE items; if marked may also tak Arcane Slaanesh items
same comment as SS
Herald of Slaanesh: 50 pts of Daemonic Gifts
Marauder Warlord: 50 pts of Common and Slaanesh items; 25 pts of Chaos Gifts

OTHER
Devoted Mistress (Champion) - ?
she used to have option of Speed of Slaanesh for 10 pts, which is ASF, so basicaly same thing as Quickening Blood Gift (25 pts); so should we:
- upper cost to 25 for her also?
- Simply give her access to 25 pts of Chaos Gifts?
- or maybe leave her with 'may have Quickening Blood for 10 pts'?

I'd go with the last one, as ASF on a single champion without magic items is not IMO worth 25 pts (our ASF banner gives it to whole unit for 35 pts); I you believe it is, I'd propose second version (25 pts of gifts) as it at least gives some more variety to devoted units.



Another thing I have doubts about is total number of Chaos Gifts:
- 6th ed CoS had total 6 of those, only Anointed used them
- 7th ed WoC has total 13 of those (one of them for Daemon Prince only), any character can use them (within PV restrictions of course)

I'd say we could base on the latter, and include chosen WoC, original CoS and original 6th ed HoC Slaanesh only gifts (cyan, violet and white positions on the list respectivly) for a total of 11 gifts (12 if we include Conjoined Homunculus)

But maybe, as in our list only two characters use gifts we should keep options short (and save - although a little - space), including only chosen WoC and original CoS gifts for a total of 9 gifts (10 if we include CH)?


/want to comment in other topics also, but as I should concentrate on work for my studies ATM and not sit here on the forum, I'll leave it for tommorow/

[Weenth]

Given some thought to Conjoined Homunculs and I believe it should be out - there is no other item or gift that Slaanesh grants, what would help spellcaster (except the one I've made to replace Seal of Ghrond - but even that one works indirectly), so I believe strongly now that CH is too much of a Tzeentch thing.


Also, I'd be for replacing Standard of Hag Graef with identical in effect Slaaneshi standard:

Quickening Banner - 35 pts (Artefacts of Slaanesh)
Pleasure God blesses followers carrying this banner with unnatural swiftness and speed.
All models in the unit containing the Quickening Banner gain the Always Strikes First rule.

[Martialartist]

Quickening Banner seems fine.

Anointed : 100 pts of Common, DE or Slaanesh items; 50 pts of Chaos Gifts

Marauder Warlord : 50 pts of Common and Slaanesh items; 25 pts of Chaos Gifts

I'd actually change it so that the Anointed could have a TOTAL value of 100 pts (for all types of items and demonic gifts) as I think this is granting them way too many choices and making them easier to become one model armies. With Mark, Eternal Hatred and all the other special rules he has, plus some sort of Demonic Mount, does he really need 150 points of magic items/gifts? I'd restrict him to a total of 100 (or even 75) points.

The Warlord seems similar, though I'm not as certain here and I wouldn't be upset if stays as is at the moment. If going to be changed (especially if the Anointed is as well) than I'd do a similar thing and make the Marauder Warlord 50 points TOTAL for magic items and gifts.

I'd go with the last one, as ASF on a single champion without magic items is not IMO worth 25 pts (our ASF banner gives it to whole unit for 35 pts); I you believe it is, I'd propose second version (25 pts of gifts) as it at least gives some more variety to devoted units.

Stick with the 10 points for ASF on champion. That's how it was in the original Cult list, it makes sense, and its simple. My vote is 10 pt ASF for Devoted Mistress.

On Chaos Gifts list, definitely leave in all of the original Cult gifts for the Anointed, keep the 6th ed ones to give the Marauder Warlord some more options and then add the chosen 7th ed WoC gifts for either of them. Sounds fine to me.

Also noticed something that isn't really a problem but is just interesting, the Avatar of Slaanesh skill is exactly the same as the BSB effect, but more expensive. Do we have the option for a BSB in the Cult? Herald's maybe, but that doesn't really fit, or Marauder Warlords (but that doesn't really fit either)? Certainly no Sorc would carry it. If we have one, I still think the Avatar gift should stay and be exactly same as is, as no unit can re roll a re roll and it gives another couple of options and should be more expensive as the character with it is harder to kill.

The Sorcs could probably use access to the Slaanesh talismans and stuff (I don't know all the rules for them but I suppose they could, and yes, I do know about the link) so if Marked i'd give the access to Slaanesh stuff apart from weapons and armour (which they mightn't be able to take anyway?)

MA

[Weenth]

I'd actually change it so that the Anointed could have a TOTAL value of 100 pts (for all types of items and demonic gifts) as I think this is granting them way too many choices and making them easier to become one model armies. With Mark, Eternal Hatred and all the other special rules he has, plus some sort of Demonic Mount, does he really need 150 points of magic items/gifts? I'd restrict him to a total of 100 (or even 75) points.

The Warlord seems similar, though I'm not as certain here and I wouldn't be upset if stays as is at the moment. If going to be changed (especially if the Anointed is as well) than I'd do a similar thing and make the Marauder Warlord 50 points TOTAL for magic items and gifts.

I also believe Warlord himself doesn’t pose a proble – he will work quite well both ways so should have item/gift access in line with Anointed for sake of continuity within the rules.

Anointed OTOH, requires a closer look, and I must say I am still thinking about it right now rather than came up with clear idea; but anyway:


1. I'm all for keeping in line with existing meta-ideas and standards of GW where possible (as in: where it doesn’t destroy the balance of the list or makes rules go against the fluff). Current way, I believe, is: ‘like-magic-item-but-not-magic-item’ stuff has separate limit. This at least is true of WoC, and that’s where idea of Chaos Gifts comes from.


2. Still, it’s not a WoC army and Anointed is not a regular Lord of Chaos, so we should definitly check if such solution fits.


3. Don’t know what you mean by ‘one model army’ but if that means ‘a powerful model worth ¼ or 1/3 of the army’ (leaving background/rules context out for a moment) I don’t think it is a problem. Most armies can field such unit/character, including all elite armies (with DE the dragon-rider being the case), and while some players (including me TBH) don’t like to regulary use them, I believe the option should be there for those who want it. So I believe it’s rather a question of how such character can be made fit into background and balance of rules of army in question(and is it doable at all ).


4. Background-wise I see no problem with this. I believe Anointed - as an ancient and deeply corrupted being; also elf to start with, not a mere human - should be at least on par with Chaos Lord. The most universal measure of character’s power we have is its point value. I think from this POV:

- max-kited Anointed without magical skills should cost equal to or more than max-kited Chaos Lord and less than max-kited 4th lvl Chaos Sorcerer (as magical skills are quite costy);

- max-kited Anointed with 2nd lvl should cost more than max-kited Chaos Lord, and somewhere in the range of max-kited 4th lvl Chaos Sorcerer (as he has lower magical skills, but at the same time some combat-stats better and definitly more mundane equipment options.

- this leaves out steeds of any kind, as its obvious that Anointed, even on Daemonic Mount (his heaviest available choice – 50 pts) would have problem facing both Chaos Lord and a Chaos Dragon – 360 pts) together

- also decided to give all characters Mark of Slaanesh to bring them on common level in that aspect; would WoC characters take the most costy one (Nurgle, in case of Sorcerer also Tzeentch) they would be up by 15 pts each

After calculating the values I’ve come up with (all four Anointed variants included – with separate or common limit for gifts & magic items, with spellcasting ability or without it in each case; numbers in brackets are WoC Characters with Mark of Nurgle):
- Chaos Lord – 387
- 4th lvl Chaos Sorcerer – 425

- Anointed (g&i separate) – 394
- 2nd lvl Anointed (g&i separate) – 479

- Anointed (g&i together) – 344
- 2nd lvl Anointed (g&i together) - 429

So no clear solution – Anointed with one 100 pt limit comes short on Chaos Lord, but Anointed with two limits of 150 in total comes a bit too far above Chaos Sorcerer in my opinion. Still, the latter option I’d say is acceptable if no balance issues arise (although that is likely to be the problem in this case).


5. The balance issue is mainly about possible cheese problems with such a powerful character; this, I believe comes down to two issues:

A) does the character have access to combos that allow him to hurt enemy more than his points would suggest?

- Comparing his options and power with WoC characters I’d say there is no such risk. He can hurt enemy either by shooting, magic, or h-t-h combat, the first being a small bonus, two other not having much of synergy. He might use Word of Pain or Hysterical Frenzy to help himself in CC, but there are no item combos I know of that would bring his power above the (quite big) point value.

B)more important issue – is such a character killable?
<this used to be a common problem back in 4/5th ed, with things such as T7 Emperor Dragon, whom S3 Attacks had no chance to hurt>

- With his basic stats he is definitly more killable than a Chaos Lord (which he should be) – T3 and a 5+ ward against non-magic attacks can’t equal to T5. At the same time he's a bit less killable than a Dreadlord, both of which I think fit.

- With Pendant of Khaleth he can be made nearly unkillable, but that can be also said about a regular armoured Dreadlord. So it’s problem of PoK really, common for both regular DE and CoS. My idea of solving that was giving PoK additional house rule – ‘cannot be combined with any kind of armour’.

- Still, while Black Dragon or its rider can be killed separatly, Anointed has all the power in himself if mounted on weaker unkillable 1W mount. And with 100/150 points of different bonuses there might be potential for a cheesy combo – I believe we should check that out simply by trying to put one together (will try that myself as soon as I have more time... which might well mean at the end of the week )


6. ‘Cheese proof-testing’
I believe both versions should be checked:
a) 100 pt limit for Magic Items and 50 pt limit for Chaos Gifts
- this one is more abusable in that it gives total of 150 pts of bonuses

b)one common 100 pt limit for both Chaos Gifts and Magic Items
- this one is more abusable in that it allows to freely mix Items & Gifts, thus allowing more than 50 pts of Gifts

7. Last minute idea
It just came to me, that magical-Anointed point cost might be fixed by making one of his magic levels a Chaos Gift, in a manner similar VC have it. So it would be:

Anointed - PV, equipement options, etc.
- May be a Lvl 1 wizard for 50 pts

Otherworldy Sense (Chaos Gift, Anointed only) – 35 pts
Thanks to Slaanesh all of Anointed senses are heightend even beyond elven limits, including his natural elven sense of magic, allowing him to both experience the beauty of winds of pure magic and deal with them more effectively.
If already a spellcaster, Anointed gains one magic level; If not, he generates an additonal dispell dice in the magic phase, but otherwise does not count as a spellcaster.

This way player would have to chose wether to use Gift limit for magical or combat skills, but could not take both.

the Avatar of Slaanesh skill is exactly the same as the BSB effect, but more expensive. Do we have the option for a BSB in the Cult? Herald's maybe, but that doesn't really fit, or Marauder Warlords (but that doesn't really fit either)? Certainly no Sorc would carry it. If we have one, I still think the Avatar gift should stay and be exactly same as is, as no unit can re roll a re roll and it gives another couple of options and should be more expensive as the character with it is harder to kill.

We do have Druchii Master, who - if marked - has access to BSB option. I also agree that this gift should stay the way it is, btw it’s not exacly same as BS as it doesn’t grant +1 to combat resolution, but I agree (again ) that Anointed ability to take it and also ability to take both means it cost fits.

The Sorcs could probably use access to the Slaanesh talismans and stuff (I don't know all the rules for them but I suppose they could, and yes, I do know about the link) so if Marked i'd give the access to Slaanesh stuff apart from weapons and armour (which they mightn't be able to take anyway?)

The armour they obviously can’t use. I started to think on the weapons, and believe they maybe could be allowed that:

- They most probably wouldn’t want to use any magic weapons, either from DE or Slaanesh list

- If specific marked Sorceress were combat-inclined it would be hard to explain background-wise why she does get to choose from Treasures of Naggaroth and has no access to Artefacts of Slaanesh

- with Sorceress’es statline and no ability to take Chaos Gifts or powerfull mounts (such as Dragon) I see no chance of danger for game balance in that.


Side note – will not post in main rewrite thread right now, sorry; I want to sort it out and put in one mail and there’s just to much material there for me to deal with now. Will try to post there tommorow or – more probably - later this week, might also try to post shorter comments in other CoS threads.

[Weenth]

Concering this:

Which banners and from which list they [units] can choose from Magic Standards

I believe to keep consistancy with character item list allowance, banners for units should be allowed from the following lists:

DE units without mark:
Common, Druchii

DE units with MoS:
Common, Druchii, Slaanesh

Mortals units (all who can take Magical Banner do have MoS):
Common, Slaanesh

Daemon units:
Daemonic Gifts (Daemonic Icons)


The actual items to choose are:

Common:
Warbanner

Druchii:
Hydra Banner (BSB only, due to cost)
Standard of Slaughter
Banner of Murder
Banner of Cold Blood

Slaanesh:
Banner of the Slaanesh Cult (BSB only, due to cost)
Banner of Wrath
Quickening Banner*
Rapturous Standard

Daemonic Icons**
Banner of Ecstasy
Siren Standard


*I'd make this one 'Druchii units only' as it replaces Druchii banner (Standard of Hag Graef) and I'd rather not give easy option of ASF Chaos Knights.

**Like other Daemonic Gifts, Icons are not Magical Items, which - among other things - means multiples of one can be included in the army.


BTW I'll edit first post to include summary on 'who uses what' and updated list of items and gifts.



--------------------------------------

Ok, summary's up; while I wrote it I came up with one more issue:

Chaos Gift (coming from 6th ed HoC):
Gaze of Acquiescence (20 pts) - enemy who wants to attack him in CC must pass a Ld test first; if failed can't make any attacks at all this turn;

Daemonic Gift (coming from 7th ed DoC):
Allure of Slaanesh (25 pts) - same effect as GoA.


This somehow feels wrong to me:

- one is for KoS/Herald and costs 25 pts, second is for Anointed and Marauder Warlord and costs 20 pts.

- it's not like Herald gains more from it than Anointed or MW, so one of values is not right I think.

- I also must say I don't like when two or more items/choices in one army having exactly same effect and different names at the same time.
(this is also true about Speed of Slaanesh and Quickening Blood, but I'll comment on that in 'AL entries' when we get to Devoted)

- What I think definitly is needed is to get one, common cost for GoA and AoS; I'd go with 25 points, as the one from 7th ed AB rather than 6th ed.


Apart from that I think options are:

A) change only point cost, leave unchanged otherwise

B) remove GoA not to have differently named things with same effect

C) re-name GoA to Allure of Slaanesh; this way we have both Daemonic Gift and a Chaos Gift of that name (and same cost/rules); would go with how Soporific Musk is both Daemonic Gift and unit special rule at the same time.


What do you think about it?

[Kyrel]

I haven't contributed in this discussion yet, and to be honest, I'd prefer to hold off on the Magical Items/Daemonic/Chaos Gifts until later on. At this point, however, I'll agree that it does seem a little silly to me to have two or more items/gifts do the same thing within the army, regardless of what they are called. There can be a good reason for it, but I'd like to return to this issue again later on in the process.

/Kyrel