Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:22 pm



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Game-Winning Magic in 7th Edition Warhammer 
Author Message
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Reply with quote
Post 
Doom and Darkness does not affect models immune to psychology that's why it's useless against daemons and undead ;)

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:13 pm
Report this post
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Reply with quote
Post 
Updated again to discuss some general issues regarding deployment of casters and selection of mounts.

I plan to add one more short section after this about the defensive magic phase.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:14 am
Report this post
Profile WWW
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Reply with quote
Post 
As a dragon mage user I have to disagree with your Focus Familiar statement.

Unless fighting other large targets (which we don't want to do as sorceress is not equipped to melee monsters) the Familiar only helps you casting magic missiles.
All other spells can be freely cast as long as the target is in range because she's perched on the dragon and combat doesn't obscure her line of sight.
Sure, Familiar would allow her 360 degree line of sight, otherwise impossible to get on a dragon, but maneouverability of a flying monster should let you always be facing the direction you want to deal the most damage in.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:31 am
Report this post
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Reply with quote
Post 
Since both the Death and Dark Lores have 2 magic missiles, that's reason enough in my book to take the Focus Familiar when on a dragon. I don't want my Supreme Sorceress to potentially lose the ability to cast two of her spells if the dragon gets into combat. Lore of Fire is even worse since although it's not a magic missile, Burning Head can't be cast if the Supreme Sorceress is in combat since the spell itself can't be cast into combat and would necessarily have to target the unit she's engaged with. So that's 3 spells in the Lore of Fire that would be disabled.

Plus, even though other spells requiring LOS can still be cast, I don't want to have to worry about whether there's going to be a spell target on the other side of the unit the Supreme Sorceress is going to charge. Focus Familiar allows you to take that issue out of the equation and decided whether or not to charge on the fundamental merits of the charge without complicating it based on the potential effect on your magic phase.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:19 pm
Report this post
Profile WWW
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:47 pm
Posts: 13
Location: Seattle, WA
Reply with quote
Post 
Excellent, excellent article Dyvim - for those of us not used to taking magic-heavy armies, this helps immensely in moving up the learning curve. Thanks!


Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:50 pm
Report this post
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Reply with quote
Post 
I've decided that magic defense will go in a separate post/article. This one is long enough. No more planned edits/additions to the original post.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:33 pm
Report this post
Profile WWW
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Reply with quote
Post 
Quote:
a. Defensive Casters

(...) you may want your caster to show her face and try some spells even if all you have is a single level 1. Due to the Druchii Sorcery Rule, the ability of a level 1 to roll three dice even if alone means that you have a at 7.41% chance of getting Irresistible Force. So long as you minimize exposure to missiles and mage hunters (stay in a forest, building or unit), it can be worth trying to cast a few spells.
I would add that the PoD is very valuable with the scroll caddy.
In previous editions, you would choose low-level spells, usually the default one. No big effect, easy to dispell. Your scroll caddy was brainless.

Not anymore! A scroll caddy can be worth her pts!

Now, you can roll for a spell and keep it even if it is the 6th in the list:
Each turn, you get 3PD. Use 2 for PoD. The opponent will use all his DD on PoD, obviously, because he risks much more to wait.
If he fails to dispell, you have 33% chances to have 3PD available and 67% to have 4 or 5 PD available. Perfect to cast a spell requiring 10+ to 12+, and the opponent has no more DD!
Of course, if the spell you've got needs only 3 PD (9+ or less), don't bother to cast PoD.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:43 pm
Report this post
Profile
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Reply with quote
Post 
Good to see you active again, good sir. Fantastic contribution, I'd tip my hat to you.. if I wore one.

_________________
Trading Forum


Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:13 pm
Report this post
Profile ICQ WWW
Trainee Warrior

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:26 pm
Posts: 30
Reply with quote
Post 
A very good article - I hadn't realised just how rarely 5 dice is an optimal casting strategy. Then again I only rarely use so many anyway.

On crown of taidron - I agree in the majority of cases its a poor spell. But what about if you are mounted on a dragon with focus familiar? Surely it is then possible to hit lots of enemies and no friendlies?

Also, 1 item that I think is very useful for a supreme sorceress is the black dragon egg. Ability to have T6 (potentially combined with pendant) makes you very hard to kill, on a par with dreadlord for 1 round. Also there is the option for the breath attack.

Similarly I think the guiding eye can be good for a crossbow unit leading sorceress. Yes, you lose an arcane item, but you buff your unit in additino to adding magic power, making a more versatile character.


Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:44 pm
Report this post
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Reply with quote
Post 
I'm not necessarily sold on the Black Dragon Egg, but I think you are right about the Guiding Eye. I would probably put it on a second or third sorceress, but it could be very nice in a large unit of crossbows.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:51 pm
Report this post
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:48 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Naggaroth...where the ice cream never melts
Reply with quote
Post 
Hey Dyvim, great article. Be curious to know your thoughts on when to cast PoD (by rolling, I mean, as opposed to the Black Staff). I'm still not sure about how to do that most effectively.


Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:28 am
Report this post
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm
Posts: 240
Location: In the proximity of Ghrond
Reply with quote
Post 
Well written - great! Thx mate.

_________________
"... Why so serious? ..."


Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:03 pm
Report this post
Profile
Shade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:06 pm
Posts: 101
Reply with quote
Post 
This article is great! A lot of good advice! I have to disagree with your assessment of the Lore of Metal, though. I often take this lore with my Slann, and it can very devastating to most armies. Almost every army has at least one heavily armored unit, usually more. Second, the attacks are mostly flaming. And every spell in the lore is good - there isn't a single bad spell. The default is great for picking out fighty characters, though it rather sucks against mages. The only downside is what you mentioned, in that Command of Brass is worthless to a lot of armies, and against some armies like Daemons, some of the spells are not very effective or even worthless due to lack or armor. All of the damage spells are flaming, so it is not totally worthless against nurgle (although the lack of armor really hurts the lore here, except for a few khorne exceptions), and the rule of burning iron is great for sniping heralds of khorne or nurgle (especially khorne!), and the transmutation of lead is great versus ANY army. Law of gold is great against every army except daemon, as we all take magic items. So bascially, if you are facing daemons it's bad, but not so bad against every other army, and excellent against WoC, Empire, Brets, etc. It's a very overlooked lore if you ask me!


Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:44 am
Report this post
Profile
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Reply with quote
Post 
Thanks for the kind words. Believe me, I don't think Lore of Metal is bad. I just think it's a bit more specialized than some of the other options. Against the right opponent, Lore of Metal is devastating. Last time I played against Bretonnians, I had a magic heavy-list and roasted half his army with Spirit of the Forge.

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:21 am
Report this post
Profile WWW
Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:13 am
Posts: 20
Reply with quote
Post 
Von_Wibble wrote:
A very good article - I hadn't realised just how rarely 5 dice is an optimal casting strategy. Then again I only rarely use so many anyway.

On crown of taidron - I agree in the majority of cases its a poor spell. But what about if you are mounted on a dragon with focus familiar? Surely it is then possible to hit lots of enemies and no friendlies?

Also, 1 item that I think is very useful for a supreme sorceress is the black dragon egg. Ability to have T6 (potentially combined with pendant) makes you very hard to kill, on a par with dreadlord for 1 round. Also there is the option for the breath attack.

Similarly I think the guiding eye can be good for a crossbow unit leading sorceress. Yes, you lose an arcane item, but you buff your unit in additino to adding magic power, making a more versatile character.


Isn't the guiding eye an enchanted item?


Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:09 am
Report this post
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Reply with quote
Post 
Dyvim Tvar, you may find interesting to add something about casting spells against a strong defense, which I explain in the material here below.

Sometimes I'm facing Dwarfs, who expect me to have a magic offense and stack a disgusting amount of DD. Or it's goblins or HE who steal me a PD and add them a DD. Anyway, I find myself with few PD against many DD, and as a result my foe can consider to be able to throw as many DD as I cast PD.

In this situation, I find it useless to cast PoD at all, because it will be dispelled and I'll have little PD left.

The way I solve that situation is as follows:
- I don't even try to cast PoD
- each sorceress selects a single, most useful spell to cast.
- the level 4 uses all her 4 PD on that single spell, whatever the casting value
- the level 2 uses all remaining (3 or 4) PD on a single spell
- if ever there are several level 2, they cast with 3 PD.

Note that the casting value of the spell is irrelevant, what must be done is to get the highest result, even for a mere Chillwind.

One nice side-effect is that the likelihood of a double 6 increases.
If no IF, then, in average, the opponent will have to dispel 14 or 10. So he will have to use 5 dice or 4. Then the double 1 chances are 20% or 13%.
More often than once, the opponent will let the spell get through and wait for more spells to dispel... which will never come.

Overall it increases the chances to cast sucessfully a single, well chosen spell, rather than attempt to cast many spells, more or less useful, among which all passing their casting value are likely to be dispelled.

The usual result is a single spell cast successfully by my sorceress, and the sistematic result is lots of useless DD remaining for my opponent at the end of my magic phase!

The drawback is that it increases my chances to have a miscast. The risk is worth taking, because if not taking that risk, the sorceress won't get through the magic defense anyway.

Note that this tactics is very useful for a scroll caddy: don't even try to cast PoD, just use your 3 PD each turn on your single spell. Either it gets a high result and becomes difficult to dispel, or it fails and the opponent's DD are just wasted.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:41 pm
Report this post
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 1180
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Reply with quote
Post 
Nice addition, Calisson. In fact, this is the approach I always use in any case when my magic offense is smaller than or equal to the opponent's magic defense. When the value on your dice is something like 12+, the opponent will often use a scroll (if the spell is indeed important). When the scrolls are over, he will have to risk dispelling with dice, which can often fail against high values.


Last edited by Lakissov on Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:18 pm
Report this post
Profile ICQ WWW
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Posts: 8372
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Reply with quote
Post 
Very good point. If you have little magic going against strong defense, it is a good idea to max-out your power dice on individual spells.

You are bsolutely right about the scroll-caddy -- you should throw all 3 dice even if it is a base spell with a low casting value. I recall a game where I only had a scroll caddy, took Lore of Metal and was able to snipe a Daemonic Herald of Khorne right off his Jugger because I was always throwing 3 dice and got 2 IFs in the first 3 turns.

I will revise the initial post to discuss this. Probably not today though ;)

_________________
Truly These are the End Times ...


Last edited by Dyvim tvar on Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:43 pm
Report this post
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:31 pm
Posts: 1180
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Reply with quote
Post 
I'd also add to the discussion of this point that one should always weigh the potential benefit of the casting of a spell against the incurred risk of miscast. This, of course, is mainly relevant for scroll caddies.

I.e., when you have a L4+L2 (8PD) against dwarfs with anvil lord +3 scrolls (7PD + 3 scrolls), then you just have to cast. The alternative cost of not casting is that your investment into magic is wasted, and the risk incurred by casting is merely damaging your casters.

If, however, you have a caddy against a magic-heavy army (your 3PD against 5+ DD), then you should only try casting if the spell you have is a very high-utility spell (i.e., unseen lurker on your hydra/dragon), because the risk incurred by casting is much higher (not merely losing the sorceress, but losing the scrolls she has, and hence losing magic defense against a magic-heavy opponent). If the spell you rolled doesn't have pivotal importance, then, given the high risk, your caddy shouldn't only cast on one die (if at all), hence making a miscast impossible.

To illustrate the point further, against a low-magic opponent (e.g. brets with two damsels, i.e. 4DD against your caddy's 3PD), the risk of casting is small, because if you lose your sorceress to a miscast, you merely lose her - you didn't really need the magic protection she has that much, because bret magic is not scary for you. This means that in this case you caddy should be casting (and doing it with all dice, of course).


Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:26 pm
Report this post
Profile ICQ WWW
Trainee Warrior

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:19 pm
Posts: 35
Reply with quote
Post 
Evening chaps

Just one question. May I cast Bladewind on a enemy unit which is in close combat?

By the way a really nice post Dyvim Tvar.

Yours
L


Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:34 pm
Report this post
Profile
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9675
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Reply with quote
Post 
No you can't. Unless a spell specifically states it can be cast into close combat, it cannot.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat May 01, 2010 12:27 am
Report this post
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.   [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software