Shooting vs Ogres?

[Cathel]

I am going up against Ogres next week (1000pts) and was thinking about how much shooting to take.
Are rxb worth it against them?
They have minimal armour but are T4, so is it effective?
I was thinking along the lines of:
2x5 DR and 6 shades, 5 COK, 1 Hydra and master on manticore.
That would give me 16 shooters. Enough or too much already?

[Borog]

I'd rather just commit to close combat, the shooting wont be softing them up much to make that much of a difference. Drop the shooting on the DR and consentrate on getting those flank charges instead, and spend the 50 points on something flashy

If it is something that you really want to shoot at, the shades will probably do the job well enough.

[Desert icon]

I'd rather just commit to close combat, the shooting wont be softing them up much to make that much of a distance.

Actually, as an Ogre player myself, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree!

If there's one thing I hate when playing with my Ogres, it's shooting. Not only do Ogres have VERY low armor (if at all), but they have no reliable shooters themselves!

So if you spam repeater crossbows and such, the game will end relatively quickly. The armor-piercing is just too much for the low armor that Ogres carry, and you can easily take advantage of this.

Same goes with repeater crossbows, you can pick them off from turn 1 without too many problems. I'd recommend using the multi-shot though, unless he has big units of 6-8 or such. You simply can't do as much damage with a single shot as you can with multiple shots if you're fighting single lines of ogres.

Of course, the reapers would be effective if he puts his characters out by their lonesomes. Single shots with d3 wounds will save you some hurt later on.

However, there is no fun to be had if you just go straight-out shooting so you'd probably enjoy the game more if you try out what Borog says. Beating the Ogres at their own game would be much more rewarding than just hanging back and spamming shots.

Just keep in mind that Ogres are faster than almost everything in your army but for a few notable exceptions so make sure you plan for a possible turn 2 charge.

Poison works wonders! If you use plenty of witches, you'll be able to get around that high toughness and take full advantage of the low armor that Ogres have. Protect them until they can make the charge!

Killing blow is useless against Ogres, but the higher strength of COK, Black Guards, and Executioners is great. Black guards are in particular very good against Ogres because of their immunity to psychology. Fear is a very nasty thing, so make sure you keep a constant eye on it!

Make sure you always get the charges though, or deny them their Bull Charge. If they charge from a range of 6"-12" away they will get impact hits on you when they reach so make sure you either stay outside of 12" or within 5." Your models can't fight back if they're dead, even if they always strike first!

[Borog]

Somehow I managed to write distance instead of difference there, make me seem illiterate

I actually haven't played ogres, so I would listen to Desert Icon first and foremost

I just think that in this army it seems like the dark riders are likely to get stuck in, but keeping them as they are would make them more versatile. But make sure you flank the ogres so you don't get beaten to a pulp

but I agree with D.I that witch elves would be lethal against ogres. Throw in some death hags and runes of khaine and you have a party.

The killing blow of the manticore don't get much effect here, but it should probably still do it's job, lethal in a flank attack.

[Gruff]

I'm an Ogre player too, and Dester Icon is dead right.

Ogres simply melt to shooting. Especially if he uses MSU, which most effective Ogre players do. He'll have units of 3 (maybe 4) ogres. Even if you only do 2 wounds to a unit before combat, if you get the charge or if you have ASF, all you have to do is one more wound in combat to take away an entire model's worth of attacks!

Ogres have very limited/unreliable shooting and flank protection, so if you can drop a unit or two of harpies in behind him to march block, then you'll have a couple of free turns of shooting and you'll win. Flank charges are always nice, but not as effective against Ogres as against other armies. Ogres will not have any ranks, so you'll only get the +1 for a flank charge and you won't deny any ranks. I wouldn't risk anything in order to go for the flank charge. Also, static combat res is your friend against Ogres. Ogres are very prone to bouncing off ranked up units, even if they get the charge. Your normal unit of Ogre bulls will have 9 attacks at WS 3. So, 50% of those hit, we'll round up to 5 hits, then he needs 3s to wound, so we'll say he does 3 wounds and you fail all of your armour saves. So, 3 elves die. In a spearman unit, even if you do NO wounds back, you'll have +3 for ranks, +1 for outnumber, and +1 for a standard. So, you'll win by two, even if the Ogre player rolls well and you do no wounds. Ogres rely on fear and on combining their charges. So, shoot him up to weaken his units, slow him down w/ march blockers, and make sure that you don't allow him to combo charge you.

Also, like Desert Icon said, watch out for bull charges.

[Dyvim tvar]

I'd rather just commit to close combat, the shooting wont be softing them up much to make that much of a difference. Drop the shooting on the DR and consentrate on getting those flank charges instead, and spend the 50 points on something flashy

I totally disagree. You want shooting against ogres exactly because you plan on flank charging them. Before Dark Riders go charging an Ogre unit in the flank, it can help a LOT to do 1 or 2 wounds to the Ogre unit, the purpose being to reduce the number of wounds you need to do to eliminate return attacks. Even with hatred, you don't necessarily want to charge a unit of Dark Riders into the flank of an un-wounded unit of Ogres due to the probable attacks back.

Crossbows on the Dark Riders allow the Riders to shoot on the turn they are getting in position to soften the target in the turn they are getting in position, then charge in the next.

[Entreri bloodletter]

Yeah shooting is very good against ogres, but I'll echo the sentiment that you don't want to take an all shooting army, thats just boring and no fun.

And I agree with Dyvim Tar, knocking off a wound or two of a unit of ogres will go a long way towards seeing them off with a flank charge from some DR.

As for your list Cathel I think it looks fine. Maybe a little mean to have a large terror causer in 1k points but that's up to you.

[Borog]

I'd rather just commit to close combat, the shooting wont be softing them up much to make that much of a difference. Drop the shooting on the DR and consentrate on getting those flank charges instead, and spend the 50 points on something flashy

I totally disagree. You want shooting against ogres exactly because you plan on flank charging them. Before Dark Riders go charging an Ogre unit in the flank, it can help a LOT to do 1 or 2 wounds to the Ogre unit, the purpose being to reduce the number of wounds you need to do to eliminate return attacks. Even with hatred, you don't necessarily want to charge a unit of Dark Riders into the flank of an un-wounded unit of Ogres due to the probable attacks back.

Crossbows on the Dark Riders allow the Riders to shoot on the turn they are getting in position to soften the target in the turn they are getting in position, then charge in the next.

I actually disagree with myself now as well
The point about getting the ogres down to one wound and then make the flank attack is a very good one.

[Duke daedric]

Shooting vs ogres is highly efficient. Bait & flee and march block with DRs is my preferred tactic in this case.

Rank and file unit should be a must here for the before mentioned benefits.

Assassin does wonders here...

[Cathel]

As for your list Cathel I think it looks fine. Maybe a little mean to have a large terror causer in 1k points but that's up to you.

Not only one, but two (hydra and manticore).

Rank and file unit should be a must here for the before mentioned benefits.

takint these two into account I should leave either the manti or hydra at home and add witches and/or spearelves.

[Borog]

leave the manti and get some ASF witch elves... or just witch elves

The manti can take less of a beating then the hydra. It is ofcourse much better at manouvering so it's still a bit tricky choice... I guess I just really like the hydra
You get more witch elves for the price of the manti and rider though.

[Duke daedric]

Under no circumstances should you leave you hydra at home.. You should incorporate it in your armylist since her cost/effectivness ratio..

And it did wonders for me vs Ogres last time.. or even any time for that matter.

Drop the manti...