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anyone have much corsair handbow experence? 
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Warrior

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these look ammusing, but from what I have gleen online they are not favoured at all, anyone actualy have experence with them?

units of 10 look very useful for flnak guards, and creating a no large target zone


Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:31 pm
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I have just started using them so it's too early for me to say whether I will persevere or not. I have a unit of 10 and I have just given them a standard bearer with the Banner of Murder. I have a few ideas for how I want to use them so time will tell.

I know Joe (Woodland Animal) Sturge has been using them quite a lot since playtesting. Check out his batreps here and on TWF.


Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:36 pm
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I was going to mention the same thing as DA. Not to advertise for another forum, but Joe Sturge has an ongoing army blog that includes handbow corsairs over on the Warhammer Forum.

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Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:55 pm
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their nice against some shooty armies with a good M since they , have 4+ AS against shooting and no penalty for moving and shooting or stand & shoot so they might be quite good for protecting your sorceress. Problem is when they get in CC. And for 10 corsairs with handbow, if you want AP they will cost you at least 135 pt which is 25 more then 10 RxB with shields which have longer range and better save in CC so... But sometimes i use corsairs with handbow even if I don't really know why, perhaps because with i tend to play RxB defensively while with corsairs i cross the table and shoot anything what gets in range.. which is fun :)

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Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:04 pm
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D.R.A.I.C.H.:
Corsairs in massive blocks
**.................................... Corsair Handbows
Corsairs with R-handbow..... Crazy RHB idea?
........................................ Corsairs xBow Pistols & Banner of Murder


Personally I use rhb corsairs and I will keep on using tem.

I run them only in a small unit:
10 + musician = 105 pts.

This is a cheap unit. I don't worry too much about loosing it, and the opponent don't worry too much about destroying it.

It's role is to get close to the enemy and taunt him.
If shot at, it is quite resilient.
If spelled at, then it prevented a more expansive unit to be spelled at.
If charged, it stands & shoots, kills a few, normally looses combat, so what? It was positioned in order that the pursuing unit finds itself in trouble.
If left alone, then for 105 pts you can contest the opponent's 1/4 table.
If it gets inside a building, then it is difficult to dislodge: impressive missile protection, stand & shoot several turns in a row... only template weapons and magic have no difficulty.

They provide a good protection from fast cavalry. No matter where the fast cavalry comes rom, they can interpose, shoot and stand & shoot if charged. Light cavalry hates that.

The unit goes well with an asassin.
The assassin is sheltered from magic and shooting while the unit gets close to the enemy. There you test if the enemy is concerned with such a weak unit or not.
Suppose the unit arrives unharmed in vicinity of the opponent's warmachine on a hill, protected by a babysitting melee unit on the bottom of the hill.
Then you can reveal the assassin and let him charge alone, so he becomes a skirmisher with no movement penalty and charges at 10" across the hill slope and between the protecting units, as long as there remains a narrow 1" corridor.
In the meantime, the corsairs just move and shoot at the protecting unit.
If the enemy found that the unit deserved a charge, then the assassin is revealed and helps wiping away most of the charging front rank.
The assassin alone can tilt the fight to a victory, then the corsair rule helps stampeding them.
The drawback is that it makes the unit much more expansive.
The recommandation would be to alternate with/without assassin so as to let the opponent in the expectation.

Sorceress appreciate this unit as well.
Sure, the MXB has a 24" range which is perfect to complement the spell's range.
However, MXB with shields cost slightly more than RHB corsairs and provide a lesser missile protection.

Overall the MXB are probably slightly better, but not that much.
It is worth taking one single rhb corsair unit.


Oh, also, they are sooo cooool!

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Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:55 am
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I was wondering though; what can a unit of 10 rhb-corsairs do, that a unit of 10 rXb's with shields can't? Only thing is that the rXb's will cost 10 points more and have slightly less protection VS missiles. But they shoot 24" instead of 8"...

If you were to use the rXbs exactely as you would use the unit of rhb-corsairs they'd still get to shoot more so I don't really see how the rhb-corsairs are better?

I've got ehh... 40 corairs to assemble (2 Battalion boxers) and I was wondering if I should make some of those with handbows.

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Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:54 pm
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Amras wrote:
I was wondering though; what can a unit of 10 rhb-corsairs do, that a unit of 10 rXb's with shields can't?


They can move agressively to act as bait, combat support, and charge-redirectors. Regular crossbowmen lose much of their effectiveness when used in this kind of role. Corsairs are made for it.

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Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:07 pm
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Let's see...

Remember, this is my opinion based on how I see the comparisons! So, don't get an heart attack if you don't agree with what I say here.

Shooting at enemies
Corsairs < Crossbowmen

The longer range (almost almost a foot and a half!) and armor piercing qualities of the Repeater Crossbow gives it the win, since the firepower can be applied in more places, and can take advantage of opportunities more easily (i.e. placed on a hill). Although the Crossbows do take shooting penalties, there will be many more opportunities to take shots, whereas the handbows will only get maybe around 1-2 turns of shooting if lucky (and they get close enough).

Receiving enemy fire
Corsairs > Crossbowmen

Corsair Sea Dragon cloaks FTW! Compared to Crossbowmen with shields, they will last longer as they have a 50% chance to come out unscathed from Strength 3 shooting. This means they can risk inserting themselves closer to the enemy, and have a longer chance of living if fired on.

Fighting in close combat
Corsairs < Crossbowmen

While they both have an equal fighting skill, Crossbowmen with shields have a better armor save in close combat. This means that they will live longer and have a better chance to strike back if charged.

Maneuverability
Corsairs = Crossbows

Both of these units are equally as maneuverable, and they can be used for the same roles. They can be applied in the same ways without losing mobility.

Cost vs Effectiveness verdict: While Crossbowmen with Shields are more expensive than Corsairs with Handbows, they can essentially be used for the same purposes with much more effectiveness in both combat support AND shooting potential. Not only will they live longer in combat if they are used to flank enemy units, but they will be able to pepper said unit more easily in the turns before the combat begins.

As for maneuverability, they are just as equally maneuverable as Corsairs, and while they die more easily to shooting, they can harass these same shooters on the way to their objective. Corsairs will most often not be able to reach these enemies with their handbows, and will have no way to fend it off until they get into range.

I have to say this about Corsairs with handbows: Don't use them, won't use them.


Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:30 pm
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Desert Icon wrote:
Shooting at enemies
Corsairs < Crossbowmen

Maneuverability
Corsairs = Crossbows

What you fail to see is that if you use crossbowmen in the same way, you lose your shooting advantage. If you want to keep your crossbowmen's shooting advantage, you'll lose their manouvrebility. In short, they fill different roles entirely.

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Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:27 pm
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Desert Icon wrote:
I have to say this about Corsairs with handbows: Don't use them, won't use them.



All true, agree entirely. The only other corsair advantage is that they can take a magic banner. A block of 20 with FC and the warbanner give up very few attacks in melee and have a monstrous stand and shoot versus large targets in 4 ranks, which might be good for a couple wounds versus a giant.

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Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:29 pm
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Patrizzo wrote:
What you fail to see is that if you use crossbowmen in the same way, you lose your shooting advantage. If you want to keep your crossbowmen's shooting advantage, you'll lose their manouvrebility. In short, they fill different roles entirely.


So they lose their shooting advantage and become equal to Corsairs? I can see how moving in close denies the advantage of their longer range, but they would still be superior in the firepower department (armor piercing), and they're still more effective than these Corsairs in close combat, which is what Corsairs are inherently built for.

Add to this the fact that you can shoot the enemy with Crossbows while on the way to the desired destination. I'm having a hard time seeing how you'll be less effective than Corsairs by getting closer with the Crossbows. If you can explain how they would be worse in this situation then please enlighten me.

Amras wrote:
If you were to use the rXbs exactely as you would use the unit of rhb-corsairs they'd still get to shoot more so I don't really see how the rhb-corsairs are better?


I think he said it much better than I did, because mine was more elaborate. Sometimes, you just can't beat saying it the simple way. ;)


Last edited by Desert icon on Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:22 pm
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Patrizzo wrote:
Desert Icon wrote:
Shooting at enemies
Corsairs < Crossbowmen

Maneuverability
Corsairs = Crossbows

What you fail to see is that if you use crossbowmen in the same way, you lose your shooting advantage. If you want to keep your crossbowmen's shooting advantage, you'll lose their manouvrebility. In short, they fill different roles entirely.


why? even when moving 5" the normal rxbows can shoot while corsairs can't (thx to range) - and the AP rule really makes a different.

maybe you could bring another argument - regualar rxbows can do almost the same like corsairs - but they can get into regions where corsairs won't be of use at all
IF the rxbows can use stand and shoot as reaction (distance is important of course) i see absolutely no advantage for corsairs since they are weaker in CC

never had handbows on them so far... and i think i won't change it

€: Desert Icon didn't see your opst (1min faster) - but i agree in all points!

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Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:23 pm
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It seems that the thread evolved somehow towards a comparison between rhb corsairs and MXB.
I'd like to analyse it thoroughly and try and kill some false ideas.

Let's sum up Desert Icon's basic arguments, with which I concur wholefully:

Shooting: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs
Fighting: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs
Maneuver: they are =
Receiving fire: RHB Corsairs > Shielded Crossbowmen


In the following posts, some developments have been written, mentioning a complex use combining 2 or 3 of these basic qualities. I agree with all these statements.
To sum up, when dealing with shooting, fighting but not receiving fire, crossbowmen with shields are always superior to rhb corsairs.

But some combinations are missing, so the conclusions are only partial.
The most obvious missing mention is that for moving and receiving fire, the rhb corsairs are superior.
Rabidnid mentioned the magic banner and the very specific 1 trick pony anti-giant stand & shoot reaction for which rhb corsairs are better.


Let's list and analyse all of the possible complex combinations of the 4 basic qualities. We'll see later on what can be concluded:


Static, no missile threat Shoot & fight: Shielded Crossbowmen >> RHB Corsairs
No missile & combat threat Move & shoot: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs
Static, no combat threat Shoot & receive fire: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs because MXB with shields die more & kill something, RHB Corsairs die less & kill only once, as stand & shoot reaction.
No missile threat, not shooting (???) Move & fight: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs.
Static, not shooting Receive fire & fight: RHB Corsairs > Shielded Crossbowmen because corsairs can stand & shoot and both are rather ineffective in combat - corsairs are less a threat so they are even more resilient.
No combat threat, not shooting Move & receive fire: RHB Corsairs > Shielded Crossbowmen

No missile threat Move & shoot & fight:(Cost vs Effectiveness verdict): Shielded Crossbowmen >> RHB Corsairs
Static Shoot & receive fire & fight: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs
No combat threat Move & shoot & receive fire: they are =, because MXB with shields kill more than RHB Corsairs, but die all the more that they are perceived as a threat.
Not shooting Move & receive fire & fight: RHB Corsairs > Shielded Crossbowmen because corsairs can stand & shoot and both are rather ineffective in combat

Move & shoot & receive fire & fight: Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs

Yes, I know, some of the combos are useless! :roll:
I mention with a (?) the use which is very unlikely.


After the analysis, the synthesis!
Let's sort out for which complex uses MXB or corsairs are best fit:


Shielded Crossbowmen > RHB Corsairs for:
Move & shoot & receive fire & fight: the best generalist.
Static Shoot & receive fire: the best gunline.
Shoot & fight under low missile threat, either static or moving: the best support against low-shooting armies.
Move & shoot & receive fire, not fighting: more agressive at distance but die.

RHB Corsairs > Shielded Crossbowmen for:
Receiving fire, static or moving: the best screen.
Receive fire & fight, static and shooting only once (stand & shoot): the best babysitter for a sorceress.
Move & receive fire & fight, shooting only once (stand & shoot): the best taunting unit. Also a good shelter for assassin delivery.
Move & shoot & receive fire, not fighting: kill less but more resilient.


My conclusion:
RHB corsairs are a small and resistant unit specialized in screening
which can be used also for sheltering soft characters (assassins, sorceresses).
As mentioned Dyvim Tvar, they can move agressively to act as bait, combat support, and charge-redirectors. Regular crossbowmen lose much of their effectiveness when used in this kind of role. Corsairs are made for it.

If you want a shooting or general-use troop, take Shielded Crossbowmen.

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Last edited by Calisson on Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:22 am
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Calisson

Magnificent, truly magnificent. You hit the nail on the head there.

I agree with you completely.

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:30 am
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Aye, well said Mr. Matey. Take the conn!

Warriors = defensive/general troops, Corsairs = assault troops. And in a sacrificial/botheration role within the assault class, their attacks don't matter much so they may as well have handbows. Never know what you might kill.

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:09 am
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i disagree to Calisson in several points...
IMO a sorceress is much more useful in rxbows because both shouldn't be in a fight - but the rxbows can do damage all over the time whereas corsairs won't do damage at all unless the unit is charged - even then the stand & shoot + fighting of the rxbows is better!
the "giant trick" is not that good - because no one serious will ever use a block 20 corsairs in 5x4 formation - unless a large target attacks that unit it's a huge waste of points and 3/4 of the unit cannot use their "ranged" weapons - they cannot use a proper stand & shoot vs normal targets either. you can use a wide unit of course - but after that you won't have a small, maneouverable flanking unit - and that's the typical position for corsairs.

and in the end the is a point which is not that obvious but very important:
rxbows can reduce unitstrengh of another (enemy) range unit every round. there will be less models shooting on your rxbows than on corsairs - this results in less losses and that's why the statement "corsairs are better vs shooting" is not correct imho!

-> corsairs with handbows are not good!
take 2 handweapons, add a franzybanner and you have arnoured witches (ok, without poison) - that's interesting... but not handbows

regerds, Sai

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:11 pm
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i think you are confusing his points

they were idirect comparrison of what they can do on there own

RXB elves are much beter in support than RHB Corsairs, but the Corsairs have other uses which the RXB elves don't really cover.

Overall, yes RXB elves are better, but for screening and directing charges I think RHB Corsairs are better.

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:27 pm
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@ Saithis
a sorceress is much more useful in mxbows because both shouldn't be in a fight - but the rxbows can do damage
by the way, rhb corsairs shouldn't be in a fight either. ;)
=> il all depends of the intended use for the babysitter:

- For a long-range, static use under low missile threat, I agree with you that MXB are better because they complement well the long-range spell with long-range shooting. I use often this combo.

- However, Corsairs are better for a cover against spells or missiles. Under heavy missile/magic threat, if it is more important to protect the sorceress against spells or missiles than shoot at the enemies, then corsairs are better.

- It is valid as well for shorter-range spells, you mount the sorceress on a horse, hide her inside the corsair because it is much more resilient than the DR. You double-march at 10", the enemy is at 14" and you're still protected (and more so than with MXB).

=> I like to have both options available (i.e. 1 MXB unit and 1 rhb corsair unit) and select the babysitter in accordance with the foe I face.

the "giant trick" is not that good
I just mentioned that option. I did not recommend it.

rxbows can reduce unit strengh & shooting of another (enemy) range unit every round. that's why the statement "corsairs are better vs shooting" is not correct imho!
This statement was made by Desert Icon, and I support it.
If you just flatly deny with no real analysis the only advantage left for Corsairs, I understand why you conclude : -> corsairs with handbows are not good!. Logical but not really argumented.
For a thourough analysis, I'd recommend my thread "D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp: resistance to massive shooting".
You could complement it with the analysis of the foe's shooting reduction.
Only after concluding would your statement be confirmed or denied.

take 2 handweapons, add a franzybanner and you have arnoured witches (ok, without poison) - that's interesting
I agree that it is a good unit, but this is another discussion.
Comparing rhb corsairs to ahw corsairs seems very strange to me, the two units are so different! except if you compare them as small screen, which you are not doing.


Thanks for your participation to the debate.
I am especially interested if you would pursue your investigation about the effectiveness of reducing enemy's shooting effectiveness.

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:00 pm
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i did not compare corsairs with and without handbows - i just said without handbows they have a use on the field - but when seeing rxbows as an option i won't use corsairs with handbows

and when having a look on our core troops i don't see why we are talking about corsairs with handbow as a "baiting & distraction" unit we have much better choices for that too - much faster, more mobile and a real threat for enemies warmachines and so on

a bunch of people (yourself as well) brought enough points up where you can see handbow-corsairs are inferior to rxbows in almost every situation - that's why a conclusion like "corsairs with handbows are not good!" can be made after bringing up arguments.

have to leave now, if i am back soon enough i can take a look on reducing enemy's shooting - but against a HE archer line (10 wide) for example it will have a huge impact... no skirmisher, bad armour & T3 will suffer a lot... we should have a look on let's say 2 shooting phases, because the effect will increase with time of course

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:41 pm
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I don't think they worth it. They would be decent if they would give something in return in close combat but corsairs with 1A in close combat and still 5+ AS, I don't call that being offensive.

The range of the RhB should have been more than 8", it's really pathetic... It's almost, if not, the range of a throwing weapon! Are they throwing their bolts instead? I would have seen 12" like they are, or 16" with range penalties.

I don't see how they can be more offensive than the Crossbowmen since the Crossbowmen can attack every turn with their 24" range. The only difference is: the Corsairs always can stand and shoot. But in overal, Crossbowmen can do everything that Corsairs can do but Corsairs can't do everything that Crossbowmen can do.

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:58 pm
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I agree with Calisson here, the thing is Corsairs with rhb are great babysitters for frenzied units, when a small unit of fliers or fast cav come within range they get mowed down in a hail of small arms fire that will decimate 5 man march blockers used as such to pull away frenzied troops.

Now to look at the "inferior for screening' argument.

10 MXBs with Shields = 110pts 5+ save
10 Corsairs with Handbows = 100pts 4+ save against shooting!

The fact is if you want a unit protected from a gunline then the corsair screen even if it is just melee corsairs in fact, give a greater chance of the screen surviving longer to get their charge into combat.

Of course they fit perfectly into a corsair themed army and actually help me win some games, generally because they are ignored and get into positions to rain fire down upon an enemies flank whilst they advance towards a combat.

One time, my black guard were aided by some un-noticed rhb corsairs, who charged into the flank and broke the enemy unit, using their slavers rule to run them down.

They have small advantages and the ability to be overlooked by the majority of players and as such hold a special tactical advantage.

And as Calisson said, if they do get noticed then it's better them than your proper combat units.

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Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:56 am
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Alright I've gotten lots of exellent answers to my question.

I guess it basically boils down to this;

RHB corsairs can be used more agressively because of their short missile range. WHEN they fire, they are more accurate, but that is only IF they can fire. (not very often)

MXBs can be used EQUALLY agressive as the RHB corsairs, but will die slightly faster because they have a -1AS compared to them. On the other hand, they can be used defensively as well due to their long range, and even though they will not hit as often due to shooting pentalties, it is still better to shoot with a penalty than it is to not shoot at all! They do however cost 10 points more for a unit of 10.

My conclusion would be that MXBs are a lot more convenient to take than the corsairs simply because I won't be restricted to their one trick pony "screen other unit, unleash 2 volleys of bolts and then die" trick.

In fact if I take 10 MXBs my opponent might not even expect me to have them run forward, screen stuff, divert charges etc!

Still I will model up 10 of my corsairs with handbows, just so I can try them out myself. I mean I've got 40 right now and 10 of them are only like 17,50 euros so...

thanks for all you guys' input and keep it coming as more persons want answers too :D

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Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:00 pm
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@ Calisson: From now on you shall be known to me as Calisson Wordweaver!

@ Amras: You're welcome!


Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:57 pm
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Talking about me? :D
Wordweaver: New word for me, and not in my dictionary. :?:
I imagine that being called a "weaver of words" is a compliment when adressed to a non-native speaker. :oops:
...unless it is an allusion to the sheer volume of words that I can post :roll:
...or possibly "weaving the words" means that my sentences are so entangled that they are confusing :?
Might be all of the above together, in proportions left for the reader to choose. :)
Back on topic, I regret not being called boltweaver or handbowweaver :( (this line was intended for the mods not to frown at my post) ;)

Calisson the Emoticonweaver 8)

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Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:18 pm
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