Dark Rider Tactics?

[Dooks dizzo]

Being a brand new player to both Fantasy and Druchii, I would really like to discuss what is so great about Dark Riders.

When I first got my army book and started paging through a number of units/items really jumped out at me. I then went looking around on the net to see what other people felt about my initial reaction.

I found:
I wasn't the only one who thought the Pendant of Kaeleth was great
Hydra's certainly ARE great for their points
Cold One Knights aren't the end all be all that I though they were
Giving Black Guard the ASF banner was not an original idea that only I came up with
Suprise! Harpies make a good screen
And so forth and so on.

However, of all the units I looked at both good and bad I totally skipped over Dark Riders. They seemed fine but not really something I just had to have in my army for tactical purposes.

Once I get to reading around though, it seems to me that just about everyone agree's that they are essential to a Dark Elf army. The total shock of Charles winning a GT without them in his army was pretty indicative of this.

Coming from playing 40K there are a lot of things I struggle to get my head around. I've only goit a few low point games under my belt but I almost have 2250 of DE's painted here and gearing up for my first big games.

I am totally open to learning, being good at 40k has NOTHING to do with being good at Fantasy, and I would love to pick some brains around here about this mystery unit...the Dark Riders.

[Matricide]

In the last edition, most DE core units weren't really worth their point cost so a lot of players only used Dark riders as their core units. And they can be really annoying - they can be used as bait, screening, killing off lone characters and warmachines.. plus how annoying fast cavalry-shooters are when you can't manage to shoot them down yourself.

[Ehakir]

They are just the jacks-of-all-trades in the DE army: You can use them to get a mobile gunline, you can use them to kill just that one model the enemy needs to hold his rank bonus, you can use them to march block, bait the enemy, hunt warmachines/mages, irritate the enemy, etc.

About the gunline: What you get for your points is an unit that can shoot pretty hard (2 shots/model), and what is even better, an unit that can march away from the enemy and still shoot, which is the main problem of gunlines: their mobility. Empire players can solve this problem by using pistoliers, but they will often hit on 5's or 6's, and are bought as special choices, denying other troop choices.
Other gunlines are more or less static, which means that when you reach their lines, they aren't able to get out of your way to prevent themselves from getting killed. Dark Riders can however shoot pretty hard and they are one of the most mobile units in warhammer fantasy. On top of this they will easily kill the other fast cavalry units, giving the dark elf player even more flexibility.

About march blocking/irritating: The steeds have a movement value of 9, which means that they can march up to 18", and their fast cavalry rule makes them very manouvrable. Because of this they can rush to the enemy's lines and when they are within 8" of the enemy out of their line of sight (remember that most warhammer unit only have 90 degrees LOS)
This way they can shoot at the unit and make sure the enemy cannot march, and kill the models that give the enemy the rank bonus (imagine that the enemy has 20 swordsmen deployed 5x4, you kill one of them, and the enemy only gets +2 for his ranks instead of the +3 in combat)

About baiting: What if the enemy has the Incredible Unit of Overkill and Smacking, otherwise said things like 10 Blood Knights overloaded with characters and magic items. Normally you would have to wait for him to choose his target, and he will probably kill it. That is what you have Dark Riders for. Place only them in the charge arc of the unit and he has to charge the unit due to frenzy. This way you can lead him in a forest, making his unit near useless.
If the enemy unit hasn't got the frenzy special rule you could use the following tactic:

-------------EEEEE-------
--------DDDDD----------
--------------------------
-----------------UUUUU-
-----------------UUUUU-

Where E = the enemy
D = Dark Riders
U = Friendly unit

The enemy will not be able to charge your unit, and you leave him with the choice of charging the dark riders. If he does not charge them, his unit will stay where it is, as he is not able to march/move forward. If he charges the dark riders they will flee, and the enemy unit has opened up his flank to your unit. In the next turn your unit will be able to charge his unit in the flank, and kill them.

About warmachine hunting/mage hunting: probably this will speak for itself; dark riders can kill warmachine crew/mages. Charge in and kill your target. If the mage is in the unit, charge the unit. It is not bad to have your dark riders fleeing.

If you have questions left, please ask them.

[Dooks dizzo]

Man that certainly does help a lot, thank you. The whole idea of pulling Frenzied units out alone really makes them worth while.

Now if only it wasn't $60 for a single unit of five!

[Commander qupie]

You can use glade riders and warrior bits to convert them... alot cheaper and looks pretty nice. (there are alot of those conversions on this forum if you search for it)
I always use 2 units of darkriders, but almost al my oponents use 2-4 war machines.... so sometimes even my 2 units DR, 3 harpies and 1 unit of shades are not enought to hunt them down...

[Farodin]

Well, all the uses for DR have been said. Oh btw, if you want the dark riders cheaper and not convert them then order them from giftsforgeeks.org.uk there you'll get warhammer much cheaper. I also almost always have 2 units of dark riders, they're essential.

[Dooks dizzo]

Thanks a lot guys for all the input. After reading through this I can seriously see why people love them so much. I am thinking of just running a unit of 8 of them in tandem with my Cold One Knights.

The Glade Riders is brilliant, thanks for that! I can get 16 of them for about the price of 6 DR's.

[Farodin]

You shouldn't put the dark riders in units of 8 because they:
1. Lose very, very much of their manoeuvrebality
2.If they get caught you lose a lot VP
3.The 3 extra models don't help a lot with most of the uses

You best run them in 5 with only a musician and rxb's. This will keep the pts relatively low(117pts).

If you want to use them as cheap "heavy cavalry" then you can use them in 8, but you should equip them with shields, FC, no rxb's, and possibly a warbanner. This way they are just a cheaper version of the CoK, but they are also a bit less effective .

[Dooks dizzo]

Naw you're right. I want to keep them cheap and utility. I was thinking of running 8 because that's how many come in a box

Here's a quick question: can I attach a sorceress on a Dark Steed to the unit without losing their Fast Cavalry abilities? I don't have my rule book on me at the moment.

I was thinking of sticking a level 2 with them to increase their shooting punch a bit with Chillwind for example.

[Farodin]

If you put in a character on steed, which hasn't fast cavalry, in a unit of fast cavalry then the unit loses its fast cavalry rule. If you think logically then it also becomes clear, the char hasn't learnt how to manoevre like fast cavlary does and so the unit can't manoevre as they do without the char.

An example for wich this doesn't count is the Woodelves, in which the horses itself already have the fast cavalry rule, so if you put a char on steed it automatically gets Fast C. rule . But I believe that WE are the only armie with such thing .

[Calisson]

They are just the jacks-of-all-trades in the DE army: You can use them to get a mobile gunline, you can use them to kill just that one model the enemy needs to hold his rank bonus, you can use them to march block, bait the enemy, hunt warmachines/mages, irritate the enemy, etc.

So you have the main use of the DR.

Still, many Druchii competent generals do without them.
You mentioned Charlie, you could also mention the Suicide Elves.

How come?

DR are fagile and expensive.
Endurance 3, little armor (shielded DR don't have the same use) means easy to kill with shooting or magic, and they will quickly die in prolunged melee.
Problem is that they cost quite a lot: 5 riders cost as much as 10 or even 15 infantry.

DR are not that good as a mobile gunline.
5x2 shots after moving, if you can get at short distance, you get 1 or 2 kills, not enough to ruin the enemy's plans.

Harpies
Harpies are a lot cheaper.
They don't shoot but no big loss.
They fly 20" above terrain and foe. They take much less room on the ground and are easier to hide from enemy's LOS. So they can better march-block than DR.
They can charge 20" 360° and get after a single character hidden in a unit (except ASF HE) or a warmachine (well, not a dwarven one).
Their biggest drawback is if they bait and flee, their leadership is low and they have no musician.

Shades.
For the same price as DR, you can get Shades.
Same endurance. No armor, but -1 to be shot at, and they hide easily in woods or buildings.
They shoot much better.
They run faster through woods, although in open terrain they are in trouble.
They charge at 360° and, with Great Weapons, they can deal with heavy cavalry, contrary to DR.
However, you march-block only troops in vicinity of their woods, and you don't bait with these troops.
Another drawback is that they take a special slot, but with all the excellent core slots we have, who else than Khainites need all special slots anyway?

Monsters.
Dragons, Manticores, Pegasus and Hydraes can fulfill a similar purpose.
They fly 20" above the enemy where they can march-block and irritate the enemy - the hydra can instead move at full speed through woods.
They can effectively breathe - the Pegasus-mounted Master can shoot 4 shots of handbow.
They can destroy warmachines and mages hidden in units.
However, you would hesitate to bait the enemy with them.
Indeed, their drawback is their price.
Also, they take 1 or 2 hero slots - except the hydra. But who uses all his slots anyway except the heaviest magic list?

The essence of the DE.
DR, Harpies, Shades and Monsters have in common what I call agility.
All of them are good for moving quickly across the battlefield where they can harass/threaten best the enemy.
This ability is shared by most DE armies. I believe it is the essence of the druchii.

You don't need to take all of them, not even most of them.
A few agile units of any kind are always useful, and the more you have, the better will be you ability to shape the battlefield.
You can hardly build a ompetitive DE army list with none of them, I cannot think about any build-up with no-DR/Harpy/Shade/Monster that would not improve a lot with a couple of Harpies.



@Dooks Dizzo & Farodin
Yes, you can put a mounted sorceress or master with DR and still keep the fast cav rules (except shooting for the master).
The problem is that you need 5 rank-and-file models to prevent the sorceress to get shot at. As soon as you loose 1, you're doomed.
Also, using fast cav as babysitter, you will not anymore use them as march-blocker/harasser/baiter, because it is too expansive for that.

[Dooks dizzo]

Very awesome Callison, thank you for the counterpoint!

I am looking at running 2 monsters in my list, so I have those covered. Word on the street is that the tournament circut is going to 2500 so I have some room to work with my list.

Right now I have:

Level 4 on Dragon
Malus Darkblade
Level 2 on foot w/ dagger (who I am thinking of changing up to ride a Dark Steed)
20 x Spears
12 x crossbows
5 x Cold One Knights
8 x Dark Riders (added as soon as I get to a GW)
15 x Black Guard
2 Reaper Bolt Tossers
Hydra

I've got some room and based on what you're talking about I am thinking of adding in a small unit of shades and maybe a unit of harpies as well to compliment the list.

Oh and here's a little trick, I am going to run the 15 BG with nothing but a Banner Bearer (and no magic banner!)

EVERYONE expects you to run a Tower Master w/ Crimson Death (or Hotek) and the ASF Banner. If they see a block of BG with a Standard they will just assume you're using the standard load out and treat it as such.

I am saving about 75-90 points by leaving the command group alone for the most part. Enough to get me a unit of Harpies into the list at the very least.

[Desert icon]

If you put in a character on steed, which hasn't fast cavalry, in a unit of fast cavalry then the unit loses its fast cavalry rule.

Sorry, but you're mistaken.

"Mounted character models may join fast cavalry units and move in the same manner as the unit, but do not benefit from any of the special shooting rules." (WHFB Rulebook, pg. 70)

So, looking at this, the Dark Riders will not lose their fast cavalry rule when a character joins them. This means that putting a character on a Dark Steed inside of a unit of Dark Riders is very useful, if you're planning on going that route.

Personally I wouldn't bother with putting a character in my Dark Riders units, because they're so much better in Cold One Knight units and because Dark Riders are meant to be expendable, but it can be a useful surprise to your enemy if you kinda sneak one in there without him realizing it!

[Malathir]

Personally I wouldn't bother with putting a character in my Dark Riders units, because they're so much better in Cold One Knight units and because Dark Riders are meant to be expendable, but it can be a useful surprise to your enemy if you kinda sneak one in there without him realizing it!

As expendable as Dark Riders can be, a careful general can avoid much of these dangers, especially if they're intending to use the DR as out-of-sight mobile gunlines. As such, I find that at least one Sorceress (typically the one with the Tome of Furion in my list) joining the unit brings a lot to the table as far as being offensive with the somewhat short-range of many spells in the Lore ofDark Magic, making her a more active part of the battle from an earlier point of the game and keeps her relatively safe. I run my DR 5 or 6, so the extra model doesn't particularly weigh them down, but it should be remembered that sidling up the table edges with a long unit like this is risky.

Meanwhile, putting a sorceress in CoK is just foolish, as a character that suffers stupidity cannot do anything, including casting spells. Even if it is only for one turn of the game, that is a turn in which the character (and the unit) are doing nothing, and possibly stumbling into a very bad position. Their lower movement, lack of free reforms, and more combat-oriented position in the army make it a poor choice for a caster in exchange for the meager 5+ armour save she would gain. Of course, it goes without saying that for many characters (Masters & Dreadlords) CoKs are ideal for joining them, and often it adds the extra punch to the charge you need to truly break the enemy battle line, and I am all for this. It should be remembered, however, that for those who wish to have a more defensive BSB, attending to the army wherever the benefit of his banner is needed, a Dark Steed is not a poor choice for mobility, much as Wood Elves do with the Alter BSB. Putting him in a unit of DR, however, is somewhat questionable, but I'm sure there are other generals here who can stretch their imagination better than I to come up for a use for such. In the end, it is not to say that DR are a poor choice for characters, but certainly a choice for more delicate ones, or ones who's combat strength might only serve to enhance a flank-charge rather than someone you would want on the forefront.

[Lakissov]

I also run my Tome of Furion L2 in a unit of dark riders. I second the opinion that they are a very good place for a sorceress - and not because DR act like shield against missiles (which they seize to do as soon as even one rider s dead), but because they enable the sorceress to flee from a charge, and then, after rallying, to get out of harm's way (as long as at least one DR is alive).

In previous edition, in a non-magical army, I used to run two hunter nobles (full mundane armour+lance kit, no magic items). It was not uncommon for me to strengthen a unit of dark riders with one of them and send the unit to cleanse a flank of the battle field. The added punch of the noble is worth a lot (even more so with Eternal Hatred).

Also, I'd like to add one thing. Many people on these forums suppose that crossbows are a must for the dark riders; these people more often than not prefer to use the DR for constant avoidance of the enemy. In a non-magic heavy army, I use them quite differently. For me, they are the unit whose main task is to go around the flank of the enemy army and take off ranks (and possibly also score some kills). Of course, a frontal charge against most units is not a viable option, but a flank charge indeed is - especially when combined with a frontal charge of some other unit, like warriors with their ranks. (in a magic-heavy army this is different, of course, and the main task of the DR is to slow down the enemy and delive the steed-mounted sorceresses).

[Calisson]

About characters in a DR mobile gunline:
- you can include a sorceress with short-range spells (like Death Lore), the DR will help her get close safely, and in the secund turn she can move alone and cast all she wants while the DR get busy somewhere else. This can work only against armies with little or no shooting nor magic.
- you can well include a Master with a pair of handbows and add 4 shots with very high accuracy. Youll have to get at less than 8" of the enemy (preferably on the sides...) and run circles around him.
- you can include a sorceress with the Lifetaker and try to stay at 23.5" of the enemy. But the DR mobility is not really required and MXB-men would probably be better.
[edit after Dyvim Tvar: But remember that neither the Master nor the Sorceress would be able to shoot in a turn in which the unit marched. Only the fast cavalry unit troopers can shoot in a turn in which they march. For this reason, Dyvim Tvar tends to give missile weapons only to characters that either don't march (mounted on a flyer or chariot) or that expect to be relatively stationary (in a crossbow unit for example).]


However, if you have a sorceress in DR unit while the enemy has at least two missile units or a strong magic phase,
then the first round of enemy shots will reduce the DR to less than 5 and the second will randomizely hit the sorceress, and the survivors will have to pass a Ld test and may flee.
The only good news is, if they rally [edit after Malathir: but only after fleeing a charge], they are able to move and cast (and shoot for the DR, not the character). If the sorceress was alone when rallying, she could have cast but not move.


About a character in a non-shooting DR unit.
- As Lakissov stated, a light Master (little magic objects) adds a lot of punch, and can even charge alone from the unit while the unit moves to threaten something else and then the enemy has TWO small threatening units running circles inside his lines.
- On the other hand, a sorceress benefits only from the fragile protection and the reform possibility. You don't want her to go in melee (see below), so the only use left for DR is not that much interesting. MXB DR would be better, at least they could also shoot.


About a sorceress inside a COK unit:
If she is mounted on a Dark steed, she CAN cast even if the whole unit gets stupid (because her mount is not stupid).
However, she will have to move 3.5" forward like everyone, she cannot leave the unit.
If she is monted on a CO, she will get stupid as anyone.
The main problem is that you want COK to go into melee, while you want the sorceress to stay away from the melee, this is why a sorceress in a COK unit creates difficulties.
Even if you take her a bodyguard (a Master just to protect the sorceress), while in melee, the sorceress would not be able to cast anything, so you loose the rounds of magic when in melee, which is just where you wish the COK to be...
And also, with the high cost of COK, you are likely to take only 5 or 6 of them in a unit, and as soon as the number of regular ones drops below 5, the sorceress can be randomly hit by missiles and looses the "Look Out Ma'am".

[Malathir]

However, if you have a sorceress in DR unit while the enemy has at least two missile units or a strong magic phase,
then the first round of enemy shots will reduce the DR to less than 5 and the second will randomizely hit the sorceress, and the survivors will have to pass a Ld test and may flee.
The only good news is, if they rally, they are able to move and cast (and shoot for the DR, not the character). If the sorceress was alone when rallying, she could have cast but not move.

Unfortunately, your good news isn't terribly good news, as Fast Cavalry can only act normally when rallying from a flee reaction, and not from other sorts of panic or breaking from combat. This reduces the function of them should the enemy target them. However, much of the idea (and advantage) is in the avoidance of such lines of fire whilst setting yourself up for shooting and magic, and possibly march-blocking. I have had the good fortune, as well, as to have my opponents think very little of my dark riders in the first (crucial) turn or two of the game where it regards her. Indeed, I've even had the unit in the end charge the flank of an unwary dwarf gunline, cutting them to pieces for underestimating the unit. Of course, a Hydra on the table, or Blackguard are bound to scare much of the fire away from simpler, light units like DR, but you cannot rely on this as a tactic of any sort - weigh each of your opponents individually, and react to their actions as bet you can to keep to your own battle plan, obviously.

For a note, I tend to give this DR-accompanied Sorceress (Level 2, always) the Tome of Furion, a Power Stone, and a Null Talisman (thanks to the convenience of the rules on Scroll-type items). Power Stone is definitely the most important part of the recipe, however, as the extra spell may be something pivotal such as Soul Stealer or Black Horror, or sometimes even a tide-changing Word of Pain you must see go off. Typically this sorceress will not get more than 1 spell off each phase, but it is well worth it, as it is a full 6 turns typically of spellcasting, versus what I find 4-5 with sorceresses on foot. This, coupled with the shooting of the unit of 5-6 DR makes them a simple looking, but powerful firing platform.

[Ehakir]

About a sorceress inside a COK unit :
If she is mounted on a Dark steed, she CAN cast even if the whole unit gets stupid (because her mount is not stupid).
However, she will have to move 3.5" forward like everyone, she cannot leave the unit.
If she is monted on a CO, she will get stupid as anyone.
The main problem is that you want COK to go into melee, while you want the sorceress to stay away from the melee, this is why a sorceress in a COK unit creates difficulties.
Even if you take her a bodyguard (a Master just to protect the sorceress), while in melee, the sorceress would not be able to cast anything, so you loose the rounds of magic when in melee, which is just where you wish the COK to be...
And also, with the high cost of COK, you are likely to take only 5 or 6 of them in a unit, and as soon as the number of regular ones drops below 5, the sorceress can be randomly hit by missiles and looses the "Look Out Ma'am".

BRB page 52, 6th paragraph. Units failing their stupidity prevent themselves from shooting, charging and casting spells.
The sorceress is part of the unit, ergo no spells for her that turn.

[Darluith]

One for two of you. First order for Malathir. It applies when any fast cavalry unit has rallied from any flee reaction (break test/panic counts). You my confused friend are reading half of the Feigned Flight rules located in the Fast Cavalry section of the BRB. For all fast cavalry it is such that they, on any rally; can indeed fire and any mage in the unit can indeed cast spells.

And for you Ehakir, the Dark Steed is not subject to stupidity so therefore niether is the sorceress. The only thing is, putting a different mount into a unit of CoK's makes it lose 2" of movement and carries forth with whatever movement the unit does (to include its stupidity move).

Edit: My apologies to Malathir as you were correct on the flee reaction. However, don't forget about the fast cav ability to do it whe returning from a of table edge pursuit so that you know it happens in more than one scenario.

[Right hand of khaine]

Dark Riders are useful for all the reasons that have been posted above. I do however agree that they are very expensive. I had thought that the points system was supposed to represent a unit's value in the game, but it appears that Games Workshop think we should pay through our nose as well.

If you want to try Dark Riders, then either convert them from other plastic models or buy them from somewhere else such as giftsforgeeks.org.uk as was mentioned or Ebay.

I have to say I would not be surprised if GW was in financial trouble because if most people are like me, then they get the majority of their models second hand off Ebay rather than from retailers.

In my opinion practically everything should cost only half of what it does.....but that is just my opinion.

Right Hand of Khaine

[Jayboss]

I think the wise words above pretty much say it all.

I just wanted to second that I also don't agree that Dark Riders should always be taken with rxbs. I guess it depends on the opponent you are playing and the role you expect them to play though.

Against shooty armies I prefer to field them without rxbs. If they do have rxbs, I am not as tempted to use them super aggressively, as with them they are very juicy targets for the opponents missile fire. Vs shooty armies, invariably I find harpies and shades to be better options. They both skirmish and so are harder to shoot, they both cost less, and between the two they cover all the roles of dark riders excepting being able to feign flight and acting as flankers to reduce rank bonus. But then again the dark riders would probably have been shot up some, lost a rider and not have enough unit strength to negate a rank anyway.

Still, shades and harpies don't count to your core requirements, so dark riders are often useful to fill those slots with something that, given their amazing flexibility, you KNOW will be useful somehow, even if it isn't as efficient as something else could have been.

Oh yeah, someone else said it before and i wanted to reiterate: they are better at their job in 5s than in 8s. No matter that you have 8, just leave three at home and be glad you are three closer to your next unit of 5 :-)

[Dyvim tvar]

About characters in a DR mobile gunline:
- you can well include a Master with a pair of handbows and add 4 shots with very high accuracy. Youll have to get at less than 8" of the enemy (preferably on the sides...) and run circles around him.
- you can include a sorceress with the Lifetaker and try to stay at 23.5" of the enemy.

But remember that neither the Master nor the Sorceress would be able to shoot in a turn in which the unit marched. Only the fast cavalry unit troopers can shoot in a turn in which they march. For this reason, I tend to give missile weapons only to characters that either don't march (mounted on a flyer or chariot) or that expect to be relatively stationary (in a crossbow unit for example).

[Xtickx]

Oh yeah, someone else said it before and i wanted to reiterate: they are better at their job in 5s than in 8s. No matter that you have 8, just leave three at home and be glad you are three closer to your next unit of 5 :-)

You could even turn 1 of the 3 imediately into a character, because when you buy your next box you will be able to make another 10dr!

Oh and yeah stick to 5 wide.