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The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – Resistance to mass shooting 
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Corsair
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The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – evaluating DE units.

Boot Camp 0 – Admission
Boot Camp 1 – First Week – resistance to mass shooting
Boot Camp 2 – Second Week – Resistance to a charge
Boot Camp 3 – Third Week – charging destructive power
Boot Camp 4 – Forth Week – killing when exhausted: further rounds of melee
Boot Camp 5 – Fifth Week – doping with a cauldron of blood
Boot Camp 6 – Sixth Week – flag-doping
Boot Camp 7 – Seventh Week – The Monoliths Shooting Range
Boot Camp 8 – Eighth Week – graduation ceremony – unit’s champions.
Boot Camp 9 – Last Week – specialization – departure for War.

Boot Camp extension
Boot Camp 1bis – First Week-end – template vulnerability (considered)

Other DE training rooms (might be considered some day – not necessarily by the same author):
Temple of Khaine’s fencing room
Clar Karond Noblemen’s Arena
Iron Mountains’ Ranch
Ghrond Experimental Lab


This is the first Boot Camp thread.
I wish to be able to post one more per week.

For a quick conclusion, jump to chapter 2.


Last edited by Calisson on Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:26 pm, edited 9 times in total.



Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:47 pm
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1. First Week - Resistance to mass shooting.

"This week is easy:
You just go in the middle of the field back there.
You stand still while these guys shoot at you arrows and bolts.
When it's over, you report your deads.
Questions?"

Ooooh, and there is the little surprise:
We just found some working muskets in the Corsair’s market. :twisted:



Principle.

The shooting test is made by 10 human muskets, 10 crossbows and 10 bows, with no penalty.
We compute the likelihood of hitting, wounding, saving.
Multiplied by the number of hits (here: 10), we got the “average” number of kills.
We also further compute the reasonably lucky hits and the reasonably unlucky ones.
Between the “unlucky” and the “lucky” is the expected, normal result.

I want to clarify my presentation of the many figures I provide below:
When I mention:
0,8 2,8 4,8 killed by 10 crossbows
it is NOT, as you are used to see, (hits, wounds, kills). Here, I provide no hits, no wounds. Only kills.
You are used to see posts with only the average number of kills.
Here, the average kills is the middle number.
But I provide also the range of kills to be expected, i.e. you should expect to have between 0.8 and 4.8 kills , and you should not be surprised as long as it stay in this range.
So read: (minimum expected kills, average kills, maximum expected kills)
Which I call, for economy of space:
(unlucky, average, lucky)

the range (unlucky => lucky) is where you should expect the result to happen.
Outside of this range, it becomes statistically unrealistic.
It will happen sometimes, but you must not plan that it could.


If the shooting was to happen with some penalty (distance or cover), then the result would just require more shots but the relative result and the comparison between units would remain unchanged.
So I need not to take this factor into consideration if I want to compare units among themselves.


1.1. Shielded warriors

We will take as reference the Shielded warriors, equipped with hand weapon and shield (7pts each), for other units to compare.

(unlucky average lucky)
1,1 3,3 5,6 killed by 10 muskets
0,8 2,8 4,8 killed by 10 crossbows
0,3 1,7 3,1 killed by 10 bows

Knowing that one warrior costs 7pts, it translates in:
(unlucky average lucky)
7,8 23,3 38,9 pts destroyed by 10 muskets
5,4 19,4 33,5 pts destroyed by 10 crossbows
1,9 11,7 21,4 pts destroyed by 10 bows

In average (10 muskets, 10 crossbows, 10 bows), the unit would loose 18.1 pts worth of warriors.
This last result is what I am interested to compare to other units:
Can I have a better resistance per pts?
If yes, then I would use this cheap or resistant unit to screen more fragile or expensive units.


1.2. Unshielded Warriors.

(unlucky average lucky)
6,7 20,0 33,3 pts destroyed by muskets
6,7 20,0 33,3 pts destroyed by crossbows
2,6 12,5 22,4 pts destroyed by arrows

The average is 17.5 pts of warriors destroyed if they have no shield, 97% of the cost of destroyed shielded warriors.
-3% is really negligible, so take or not shields, it is not a game-breaker.

Of course, the stronger are the missile attacks, the lesser interesting are shields.
When facing stunties, shields are not paying back their cost ; when facing woodies, they are worth taking.
If you have to take the same army against a succession of opponents including both handguns and bows, then either you choose to optimize against Dwarves/Empire (and you take no shield) or you optimize against WE/Orcs (and you take a shield).

For the following units, I’ll usually just examine the pts % difference in order to keep the thread short, unless some detailed stats are interesting to discuss.


1.3. MXB.

With +61% more pts destroyed, they are more vulnerable to shooting and make obviously a bad screen.


1.4. Shielded MXB.

Only +58% more pts destroyed. The shield does not make a tremendous difference.
What the shield protects effectively against arrows is exactly lost against bullets.
If you’re sure not to have powder weapons in front of you, the shield is an excellent option.
If you are sure to have powder weapons in front of you, the shield is a bad option.


1.5. Corsairs.

The “killed” stats being
(unlucky average lucky)
0,8 2,8 4,8 killed by 10 muskets
0,5 2,2 4,0 killed by 10 crossbows
0,2 1,3 2,3 killed by 10 arrows
When translated into pts, it is 15% more pts destroyed than shielded warriors. We can get more nuances:
100pts of shielded warriors will be destroyed by the same amount of arrows than 107pts of corsairs.
100pts of shielded warriors will be destroyed by the same amount of bolts than 114pts of corsairs.
100pts of shielded warriors will be destroyed by the same amount of bullets than 119pts of corsairs.

The SDC helps reducing bullet’s casualties, but it is not enough to compensate for its price. Only against arrows does it roughly compensate for the price.
The difference not being that great, either one can make a cost-effective curtain for a more expensive unit.


1.6. RHB corsairs.

Same as AHW corsairs, obviously.


1.7. Shielded DR.

+107% more than the reference, i.e. twice as many pts of DR are lost than would warriors pts have been lost by the same shooting.

Don’t expect miracles. The full stats are:
(unlucky average lucky)
0,8 2,8 4,8 killed by 10 muskets
0,5 2,2 4,0 killed by 10 crossbows
0,2 1,3 2,3 killed by 10 bows

For those interested, shielded MXB DR are destroyed at a pts rate +137% higher than the reference.
I doubt anyone would take this strange unit, loosing its fast cavalry agile movement and its 360° shooting. I won’t discuss it again.


1.8. DR.

+144% more pts of DR are destroyed compared to the same shooting against the reference shielded warriors.
Here you see that a very inexpensive shield (6% of the DR) can decrease a lot its vulnerability.
The cost/benefit improvement brought by a shield is +17%. The big drawback is loosing the fast cavalry rule.
If you wanted your DR primarily to serve as a fast-moving cover for someone else, you better consider providing them with a shield.


1.9. MXB DR.

+215% more. No better protection, higher price. It is a perfect nonsense to shield anything with MXB DR.


1.10. Harpies.

At +23%, harpies are the most mobile screen.
(EDIT: being skirmisher improves a lot the figure: it would be +86% otherwise)
(unlucky average lucky)
0,5 2,2 4,0 killed by 10 crossbows & muskets
0,3 1,7 3,1 killed by 10 arrows
Keep in mind that the low Ld makes them prone to flee if they loose 2 of them, which happens most of the time.

EDIT: Comparing harpies and all kind of DR, we can tell that the most effective high mobility screen is made by harpies, much more cost-effective than shielded DR, themselves much more cost-effective than naked DR.
Take also into account that harpies are more mobile than DR; especially shielded DR.
DR have larger bases, but harpies are skirmishers so they can shield a larger area.


1.11. Armoured shades.

+91% (EDIT: it would have been +174% without skirmishing)


1.12. “Naked” shades.

+80% more pts lost than the reference (EDIT: +170% if they had not been skirmishers).
EDIT The armour is not even paying back its points, the reduction of KIA does not compensate the price of the armour (the armour is cost-efficient only for arrows, i.e. 1/3 of the present test).
So, unless you're facing only a few arrows, don’t buy any armour for shades.


1.13. AHW shades.

+91% (EDIT: would be +187% without skirmisher rule)


1.14. GW shades.

+102% (EDIT: would be +204% without skirmisher rule)


1.15. WE.

+69% more pts lost than the reference. Which is less than harpies!
Actually, WE suffer from arrows twice as much as warriors & corsairs (from a cost point of view). It is a very good idea to screen WE with core infantry.


1.16. Execs.
+72%. As cost-effective as WE in average. Execs loose more pts than harpies against bullets, but less against arrows.


1.17. BG.

+86%. Which is better than DR, even shielded!
Against arrows, bolts, or bullets, it is always more cost-effective to buy more BG than to screen BG with DR (shielded or not).


1.18. COK.

The stats are:
(unlucky average lucky)
0,3 1,7 3,1 killed by 10 muskets
0,1 1,1 2,1 killed by 10 crossbows
0,0 0,4 0,8 killed by 10 arrows
leading to 59% more pts lost than the warriors in average.
Actually, against arrows, they are more cost-effective than shielded warriors, which means that COK do not need any screen versus arrow shooting, or that they can be used themselves as a screen for other units!


1.19. COC.

The stats are:
(unlucky average lucky)
0,1 1,1 2,1 killed by 10 muskets
0,1 0,8 1,6 killed by 10 crossbows
0,0 0,3 0,5 killed by 10 arrows
The COC fears not the arrows. Bolts & bullets are a little more worrisome.
The high price of the chariot is spread over 4 wounds, so each wound is worth only 25pts.
Overall, the chariot looses 2% more pts than the warriors for a similar shooting.
Against arrows, it is incredibly more efficient than shielded warriors: 40% more cost-efficient! A chariot is the most cost-effective cover against arrows (from side shooting because of the chariot is longer than wide).


1.20. Hydra.

The stats are:
(unlucky average lucky)
0,1 0,9 1,8 killed by 10 muskets
0,0 0,6 1,1 killed by 10 crossbows
0,0 0,2 0,4 killed by 10 arrows
The Hydra fears not the arrows. Bolts and bullets may be just a little more a nuisance.
The high price of the hydra is spread over 5 wounds, and I count the two handlers for free…
Even with “free” beast masters (who cannot be targeted), the hydra looses -10% less pts than the reference for a similar shooting.
The hydra is the most cost-effective cover, with the single exception of naked warriors that soak more bullets for the pts (but not arrows not even bolts).


Last edited by Calisson on Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:05 pm, edited 22 times in total.



Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:48 pm
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2. Discussion about resistance to shooting and screening units.

Now we can segregate between the units and tell who can withstand shooting and who cannot:


Some units are cheap or resistant, they loose not too big a pts value when shot at by many low strength (S4-AP max) shooting.
These units are:
hydra, unshielded warrior, shielded warrior, COC
corsairs (AHW or RHB), Harpies,
COK
(if COK are facing arrows or other low strenght attacks).
Hydra and COC being the most cost-efficient against arrows, all others being equivalent.

These units are well enough protected for their cost.
They need no missile protection and can be used as screens to protect the other units.
Of course, when facing high S missile/magic attack (or attack negating saves), then the cheaper the better (i.e. unshielded warriors only).

Using the COB 5+ ward save is not worth if you hesitate to use the CoB on someone else (except for high strength attacks).


Some units are less sturdy and deserve to be protected by the more robust or cheaper units above.
These units are, ranking from the most cost-effective cover to the worst:
Shielded MXB, Unshielded MXB, WE, Execs, BG, all kind of shades, Shielded DR.
COK
belong tot his category only for missile of strenght higher than arrows).

These average-protected units should not be used to protect units in the same category, because it is not cost effective:

Instead of screening BG with DR, it is more cost-effective to take more BG!
You need to understand that 100 pts of BG can absorb the same amount of shooting than 131 pts of naked DR. It is nonsense to screen BG with DR! … unless you have another additional role for the survivors of the screen (such as charging warmachines).

Using the COB 5+ ward save is a good idea for these units.


Some units are very fragile and must avoid any kind of shooting, which would be highly rewarding for the opponent.
These units are:
unshielded DR (naked or with MXB).

Using the COB 5+ ward save for these units is quite desperate and probably will not be enough to save them.




Conclusion, about buying protection versus mass shooting:

- MXB must take shields when facing arrows: they are likely to face a missile war and benefit a lot from it.

- DR benefit a lot from a shield, however, they loose the fast cavalry rule, so it depends on the planned use.

- Shades do not benefit from armour, so I would advise not to give them armour.

- For spear warriors, the high relative cost of the shield balances nearly exactly the benefits. The benefit is more about versatility than protection.


Last edited by Calisson on Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:23 pm, edited 8 times in total.



Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:49 pm
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3. End of the First week.

No raining, no training.
Here it rains arrows and there's no umbrella.


After my initial post, I added the influence of bullets as well.
Of course, it improves the relative interest of the cheapest units.

Other kind of evaluations to be posted in another thread
(see hyperlinks in the beginning of the thread).

"During the Second Week, they say we’re gonna be stampeded by ogres and all kind of foes."

If you find that some of the conclusions drawn here are inconsistent with your own feeling, it could be worth investigating. I could further analyse the reasons for the divergence – or identify the flaw in my reasoning, and correct it for the sake of all D.netters.

I am eager to learn about actual successful / unsuccessful live experience in application of this lengthy theory-hammering.

_________________
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:50 pm
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Please take note that I added above the influence of fire weapons.

4. Stats for the record.

Here are some of the stats I used below.
You don't need to read that stuff.
It is just provided as a quick reference.

- How many killed this week?
- See below the body count, mylord.


The three figure provided indicate, for 10 unmodified shots:
lower expectancy - average expectancy - higher expectancy
Bullets kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 Shielded warriors
Bolts Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 Shielded warriors
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 Shielded warriors
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 Unshielded warriors
Bolts Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 Unshielded warriors
Arrows Kill 0,4 2,1 3,7 Unshielded warriors
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 MXB
Bolts Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 MXB
Arrows Kill 0,4 2,1 3,7 MXB
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 MXB with shields
Bolts Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 MXB with shields
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 MXB with shields
Bullets Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 Corsairs
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Corsairs
Arrows Kill 0,2 1,3 2,3 Corsairs
Bullets Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 Corsairs RHB
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Corsairs RHB
Arrows Kill 0,2 1,3 2,3 Corsairs RHB
Bullets Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 DR with shields
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 DR with shields
Arrows Kill 0,2 1,3 2,3 DR with shields
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 DR
Bolts Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 DR
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 DR
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 DR with MXB
Bolts Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 DR with MXB
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 DR with MXB
Bullets kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Harpies
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Harpies
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 Harpies
Bullets Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow armoured
Bolts Kill 10,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow armoured
Arrows Kill 0,2 1,4 2,6 Shadow armoured
Bullets Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow naked
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow naked
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 Shadow naked
Bullets Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow AHW
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow AHW
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 Shadow AHW
Bullets Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow GW
Bolts Kill 0,5 2,2 4,0 Shadow GW
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 Shadow GW
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 WE
Bolts Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 WE
Arrows Kill 0,6 2,5 4,4 WE
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 Execs
Bolts Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 Execs
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 Execs
Bullets Kill 1,1 3,3 5,6 BG
Bolts Kill 0,8 2,8 4,8 BG
Arrows Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 BG
Bullets Kill 0,3 1,7 3,1 COK
Bolts Kill 0,1 1,1 2,1 COK
Arrows Kill 0,0 0,4 0,8 COK
Bullets wound 0,1 1,1 2,1 COC
Bolts wound 0,1 0,8 1,6 COC
Arrows wound 0,0 0,3 0,5 COC
Bullets wound 0,1 0,9 1,8 Hydra
Bolts wound 0,1 0,7 1,4 Hydra
Arrows wound 0,0 0,3 0,5 Hydra

If the stats are of any help, let me know, I am not sure if I need to post them in the other Boot Camp threads.
EDIT: harpies and all kind of shadows do benefit from the skirmisher rule.

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Last edited by Calisson on Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:19 pm
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well, looks like a nice point per bullet summary, unfortunatly, those numbers only assume ye want to let your stronger troops cower behind the weaker troops and thys be at the very least 1 turn later in HtH, but probably even 2, if your screening units do not cause a lot of panic in your main units.

the idea of screening your own missile troops does look a bit wierd to me, since that means you will also have not much to shoot at yourself.

if ye ask me, the best missile defence is is get up close nad personal very quickly indtead of trying to advance slowly after a row of arrow catchers. to me that means it is harpues al the way for turn 1, and in turn 2m those nasty shooters should be engaged in melee, and then i do not care wether they have a blowpipe or a repeater handgun, they all die the same

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Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:34 pm
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Mirz Do Ordas 2 wrote:
well, looks like a nice point per bullet summary,

=> Thank you, that was the idea. ;)

Quote:
unfortunatly, those numbers only assume you want to let your stronger troops covered behind the weaker troops and thus be at the very least 1 turn later in HtH, but probably even 2, if your screening units do not cause a lot of panic in your main units.

=> I do not assume anything. I kind of measure the resistance to missiles, and I determine who is the least vulnerable (from a cost/efficiency point of view).

You're right in that I do recommend to give a thought about screening fragile/expensive troops with more appropriate troops... but only if practical.
It does not need to slow you down. There will always be 1 turn when you have to expose your most precious troops. What I want to prove is that you don't have to do it during the whole progression.

For example, when deploying your troops, if you fear to be shot at and there is no terrain to hide behind, you may screen some of your troops with cheaper or more resistant ones.

Quote:
the idea of screening your own missile troops does look a bit weird to me, since that means you will also have not much to shoot at yourself.
=> Agree with you. Of course, you can't screen your shooting troops.
An exception still: when deploying, you may wish to cover all your troops (including MXB!) with a long line of warriors, couldn't you? Then if you loose the first move, you've protected vulnerable troops with the most cost-efficient ones. When arrives your turn to play, just move the screen away.


Quote:
if ye ask me, the best missile defence is is get up close and personal very quickly instead of trying to advance slowly after a row of arrow catchers. to me that means it is harpies al the way for turn 1, and in turn 2 those nasty shooters should be engaged in melee, and then i do not care wether they have a blowpipe or a repeater handgun, they all die the same
It is a sound tactic.
I hope that you noticed in the post that it could be more cost-efficient to take shielded DR instead of harpies, they could resist much more shooting. The drawback, of course, is that they do not fly.


In a future thread, I will also examine the offense.
There I expect to "measure" that harpies are scrap in melee compared to DR.

In another thread, I intend to compare the overall performance of all units.
Only then I will try to conclude about their recommended use.

I do not expect revolutionary results.
Most likely, I will just "measure" what you already know through observation of the army book, intuition and experience.

However, I already found an interesting, unexpected result about shielded DR, that hardly anyone seems to appreciate. Hopefully it will rehabilitate them.

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Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:41 pm
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Quote:
1.10. Harpies.

At +86%, harpies are the most mobile screen.
The full stats show that lucky crossbows could blow away “more” than the full 5 unit, wasting the extra shots.
(unlucky average lucky)
1,1 3,3 5,6 killed by 10 crossbows & muskets
0,6 2,5 4,4 killed by 10 arrows
Keep in mind that the low Ld makes them prone to flee if they loose 2 of them, which happens most of the time.


Have you taken into account that harpies are skirmishers and tough more difficult to hit? Bows should kill 1,7, crossbows and muskets 2,2.

Otherwise nice job! I really to read warhammer in numbers :) Feels like playing poker.


Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:25 pm
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Rugi wrote:
Have you taken into account that harpies are skirmishers and tough more difficult to hit?
You are right :oops:
I just edited throughout the thread the stats and the conclusions.
Shades also benefit from skirmisher rules and are not as bad as I stated initially.
The biggest difference is for harpies:
they belong in fact to the "cheap & resistant" category (nearly as good as corsairs).

I edited my spreadsheet as well, so that I will not make the same mistake again.

Thanks for double-checking.
Quote:
If you find that some of the conclusions drawn here are inconsistent with your own feeling, it could be worth investigating. I could further analyse the reasons for the divergence – or identify the flaw in my reasoning, and correct it for the sake of all D.netters.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:28 pm
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In the section of the black guard, you say that's more effective to buy more bg than harpies. But with your recent edit, harpies are just +23% and not +86% like bg. Or maybe I missed some details


Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:13 pm
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You're right. Thank you for the correction.
I checked back in my excel file and edited with the information.
Harpies are a good screen for BG inded.

There remains a discovery (at least for me), which is that DR are not cost-effective at all as screens, be it with shield or without.

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:12 pm
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well, the reason i use harpies for screens is not only their resistance vs BS being skirmishers, but also:
turn 2 they can charge thsoe shooters and thys be not in the way for the other troops,
2 they do not cause panice when fleeing.

it is not onlyu how few models ye lose as a screen that counts, but also wether it could ruin yer pther plans when they flee, and chances are, a screen will flee through the screened unit. and a good player will force as many panice tests as possible.
this concludes for me, there are only a few units you want to screen, namely black guard and execs, the monsters are not screenable due to large targets, else those would be a good choice too

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Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm
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