Lizardmen - the new book (cheese)

Columind · Post by **Columind** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:58 pm

I wanted to try to make the most competitive list I could imagine.

Given my stubborness in using slow, expensive, heavy infantry as a Slann's bodyguard (yes, even TG), I chose to go lone Slann. This is because I believe now, more than ever, he's capable of holding it's own, being able to see above friendly units and not being a large target, or the power to become basically ethereal.

Kroxigors were nerfed beyond recognition, but I still find them a lot more flexible to defend my lines that saurus or TG, which basically give the Slann's position away, and give focus to my opponent. And I still think magic is our best choice, even though I liked the Oldblood a lot back in the 6th.

So here it goes:

Slann
-General
-BSB
-Ability to cast with an extra dice per spell (obvious one)
-Ability to take 6's in casting away from an enemy mage
-Ability to become "ethereal"
-Cupped Hand of the Old Ones
-Plaque of Tepok
-Power Stone
480 pts

Now this is one mean and cheap lone slann. It will not know the full 6 spells of a given lore, but knowing 5 is a risk I'm very keen on taking for a saving of 35 pts...Cupped hand of the old ones is, sadly, needed, even if just for the sake of an entire magic phase, and it's still cheaper and more reliable than re-rolling on the miscast table, even if just one use only. Ethereal rocks, just have to be careful about characters.

Skink Priest
-Level 2
-Diadem of Power (assuming it's still 35 pts...bah)
-Engine of the Gods
425 pts

I'm still not sure on this one...I like the engine, but it seems too expensive for what's at stake. With the diadem I'll have the chance to convert dice from the not so great heaven lore spells to precious dispel dice to counter greedy VC wanting to raise legions of annoying people.

Skink Priest
-Level 2
-Engine of the Gods
390 pts

Another Engine? yes, if I'm going to be cheesy (for tournaments, it's be cheesy or be alone Laughing ) I might as well be inteligent. 2 Engines seem a bit of a waste, and I have to playtest them of course, but you'll see from the rest of the list how this can be precious against Brettonia, Dwarves, HE, DE and Chaos, for example. Especially with the burning allignment power.

3 units of 10 skink skirmishers with blowpipes
3x70 points = 210 pts

Minimum core? Yes, and I also still just see skinks as far better than anything else, at least in a list of this kind, where we want mobility and flexibility and not static walls of concrete.

2 units of 4 kroxigors
2x220=440 pts

Still see them as the best bodyguard a Slann can have, even though he will rarely join them anyway. They are still multiwound, they still cause fear and they still strike with a very nice strength value. The only problem is taking skinks out of their way, but there is less need for close skink screens with the engine's ward save now. Still rock at wounding dragons and not running away after that.

2 Salamanders
150 pts

I'm sad that they got a nerf, but I've used them in this new way with great results...you just have to be lucky on your artillery dice. Great against infantry. Much better offensively than razordons, incredible as it may seem. Haven't got the points to add a third pack, unfortunately.

2 Razordons
150 pts

After seeing these guys attacking, I was a bit dissapointed...they wound less than the ancient salamanders did. But then I got charged by dragon princes and did a stand and shoot, and 5 dead dragon princes later, I was amazed by their defensive capabilities...mean...very mean. So to add some flexibility in targets, I choose to take one unit of each of our "war machines".

2245 pts (I still have to confirm the cost of the diadem)
12 PD
8 DD
Overall, I like symmetrical structures and builds (run 2 hydras, 2 units of shades and 2 CoK in my current DE list and used to run 2 units of 16 saurus and 2 units of 3 kroxes in my 6th LZ list.), to be able to cope with several kinds of opponents and back each unit up. With the 2 engines, I have the power to soak up enemies using the kroxi and burning alignment them to death.

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Question;

If you kill the skink priest, is the EOTG then neutralized?

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:36 pm

Most likely.

Columind · Post by **Columind** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:11 pm

I believe so...any comments on the list itself? :lol:

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:25 pm

Well I havent' had any chance to playtest the 7th ed. Lizzies... let alone even keep up with the new rules for them before the book comes out.

I do run a lot of lists with no static CR. what made them work was skinks.. the redirection, disruption, and especially deployment fodder. You have a lot of hammers which is what you need in no SCR lists (the engines can hit pretty hard), but I fear that without the skink disruption it will be predictable what your moves will be and you wont' be able to bait your enemies successfully enough. You do have a considerable amount of magic which will help a lot.. though it's scary that the slann can miscast now...even with the re-roll.

My two cents would be to drop a kroxigor from each unit and put in a unit of skinks for each dropped. but it's going to come down to playtesting to see if the units are able to do what you expected them to. I'm really interested to see if kroxigors are going to be worth taking anymore if they're only str 6 but still ws3... that will really hurt.

also, with this kind of list, if you're not bringing a special BSB banner, a BSB is useless more of the time. You're not going to grind many combats out.

hope that helped!

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:08 pm

I beat that monster lists will become a LOT more popular! Carnosaur, 2 or 3 stegadons, salamanders, razordons and 3 units of skink skirmshers for annoyance.

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:05 pm

oh im sure people will find a way to exploit a godzilla list now... columind has a slann though... not a godzilla list.

Maligance · Post by **Maligance** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:43 pm

Word has it you can now fit the diadem and a scroll on a skink priest, meaning the diadem is at most 25 points.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:11 pm

I was not happy when I saw that Stegadons are now Special. They are 235pts, but still, that gives Lizards the option to take 4 T6 Terror causing monsters, which is a bit much in my book. Further, I didn't see a ton of competiton for the Special slots, so I worry about how many of these Stegadons we are going to be seeing.

On the flip side, I am very glad to see Slaan and Salamanders nerfed (especially Salamanders). Overall, I do think the Lizard book has been weakened, but the Stegadon thing just bugs me.

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:48 pm

Slaan haven't been nerfed Grog, not if you kit them up anyway. They can miscast now but theres an item to transfer miscasts to your opponent's mage. They can't mix lores but they're cheaper if relating to 2nd gen, and have some nice bonuses. Not being a large target is great, you can make them ethereal and cause terror too.

Columind · Post by **Columind** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:07 pm

My list is illegal in the sense that the rebound miscast and the plaque of tepok are both arcane...I thought the first one was enchanted. Even so, that could be corrected by giving the slann the ability to know an entire lore and still keep the rebound miscast, it would be 35 pts more expensive though.

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:31 am

On the flip side, I am very glad to see Slaan and Salamanders nerfed (especially Salamanders).

Don´t be so sure about that! They have definitely become a bigger liability but imagine 3 of those templates fallin on your black guard ar anything else! It´s possible to get more hits than before but with a -3 AS!

I don´t think that they got nerfed but we will have to wait and see.

Post by **Grogsnotpowwabomba** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:30 pm

Rugi wrote:
On the flip side, I am very glad to see Slaan and Salamanders nerfed (especially Salamanders).

Don´t be so sure about that! They have definitely become a bigger liability but imagine 3 of those templates fallin on your black guard ar anything else! It´s possible to get more hits than before but with a -3 AS!

I don´t think that they got nerfed but we will have to wait and see.

Not nerfed in potential, but they take much more skill than before, and are much more random than before. I'm fine with this.

Rugi · Post by **Rugi** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:42 pm

Not nerfed in potential, but they take much more skill than before, and are much more random than before. I'm fine with this.

Me too

Kheel · Post by **Kheel** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:11 am

This is interesting indeed. I'm one to say that they got buffed quite a bit.
Possible to take 6 terror causing T6 stegadons (US 10!!! eveb if skinks killed) And they also come with huge ballistas of some sort.
Possibility to give skinks a kroxygor, which makes them cause fear. Cheap skinks in great number with ONE kroxygor still is a big unit that cause fear.
The slann not being a large target, and possible ethereal!! What the duce? And also bump miss casts over to opponent instead of slann itself.

There were alot more of these things I thought of when I read a preview of the army list, but can't remember them all in the head. Its less than two weeks till the book is out, and then we will all know for sure.

To me, Lizardmen is now the army who eats cheese, not Skaven Skryre Army o' Death (SSAD)

Oh yeah, there was something about the terradons also that had me move my eyebrow slightly... Can't remember what it was though.

Post by **Dalamar** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:16 am

Single kroxigor will make skinks immune to fear but only the kroxigor itself causes fear.

Fear transferring works only with monstrous mounts and their riders (terror/fear causing monster makes its rider cause terror/fear as well)

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:53 pm

Kheel wrote:This is interesting indeed. I'm one to say that they got buffed quite a bit.
Possible to take 6 terror causing T6 stegadons (US 10!!! eveb if skinks killed) And they also come with huge ballistas of some sort.
Possibility to give skinks a kroxygor, which makes them cause fear. Cheap skinks in great number with ONE kroxygor still is a big unit that cause fear.
The slann not being a large target, and possible ethereal!! What the duce? And also bump miss casts over to opponent instead of slann itself.

There were alot more of these things I thought of when I read a preview of the army list, but can't remember them all in the head. Its less than two weeks till the book is out, and then we will all know for sure.

To me, Lizardmen is now the army who eats cheese, not Skaven Skryre Army o' Death (SSAD)

Oh yeah, there was something about the terradons also that had me move my eyebrow slightly... Can't remember what it was though.

The thing about the terradons may be the special character who lets them come in from a table edge like miners. probably not worth it though because he's weak and expensive.

and are you saying that lizzies are the new cheesy army or they're good at dealing with cheesy ones? Because there's no way the new lizzie book has the power creep VC / daemons have...

I a little disappointed with the lack of magic banners.. it seems all the new books are getting close to a dozen a piece and we still only have 4/5.

Sorry columind.. I was trying to keep it on topic. I gave you my two cents.. I guess everyone else was more interested in theory

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:12 pm

Lizardmen have always been a difficult army to face and that isn't about change. The only real change is in the 'crutch' section of the army, away with Jag Saurus/Oldblood and in with 2+ stegs in most armies. No more 3 salamanders in every army but there will still be a unit of sallies/razodons, and spear saurus will pop up allot and be effective as MSU 10man units.

No difinitive change in the style of the army, or the way it plays, IMO.

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:23 pm

i agree Igor... I was really disappointed when the rumor about the spawnings was disbanded. I thought it would allow a lot of great army variety if they just allowed any spawning as a unit upgrade that wouldn't change them from core to special/rare. It could have been like in the white dwarf where it had to be army wide if they wanted to compromise, but now they've limited the army play types. Slanns are cheaper and arguably better.. and steggies will be all over the table. I think we're going to see the same lizzie lists from now on for the most part which is quite sad.

Kheel · Post by **Kheel** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:12 am

furiouscado wrote:I think we're going to see the same lizzie lists from now on for the most part which is quite sad.

indeed.

Dalamar: About fear causing skinks, thats a relief actually that they do not cause fear with the full US, but to get immune to it isn't so great because they roll the 3 dice intead of normal 2. Still something to draw benefit from. I saw that the kroxygors aren't really protected either in these units. They are quite easy to kill with shooting. But to have 5 or 6 small units with 8 skinks and 1 kroxy that move 6 is nice to flank with I guess, also to hunt warmachines.
The normal skinks can't scout anymore also. Thats a relief. The skink scouts with mage in them was horrible, since slann could cast spells from those mages. Devastating spells in 1st round is very nasty.

after a few thoughts, I don't think they are all that great since some of the old things are gone and replaced with new things.
But they are still good cheese eaters (capable of dealing with cheesy armies - yes)

Mightypeon · Post by **Mightypeon** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:56 am

I actually believe that the new Salamanders are in fact stronger than the old ones.

Against infantry, new Salamnders simply do more hits. In addition, Flaming attacks make the a great and awesome counter to the ever prevalent Regen Bunkers.
3 Sallies cost some 240 points though, but have the definity potential to make back this points in one shooting phase.

Razordons are "meh", yes, they could deal with Skirmishers, however you can get a full Skink unit for each Razordon, and I bet that 30 Javelins will usually cause more damage than 3 Razordons.

Lizards have the potential to become the new kings of MSU, due to 2 very strong MSU choices:
12 Spear Saurusses, Musician: 150 points
Rally on a Coldblooded 9, can beat light infantry blocks by themselfs, ok, MV4 aint the world but whats not to like?

12 Skinks, Kroxigor Musician: 121 points,
quite cheap, fast, has 2 ranks and strikes with some fairly respectable 5S3 and three S6 attacks. Out of this attacks, 3 S6 and 3 S3 attacks could be directed on a character, which will on average kill mages.
Also, they are hard to outmaneuver. If you for example place 5 Dark Riders at their flank, they could make a full reform and fire their 12 Javelins. Against Riders, that should make 4 wounds=> 2-3kills, likely leading to a panic check and significantly reducing the efficiency of the unit.

Also, the Stegadons are available and pack some nice killing power on a small frontage. A Combo charge by one of the small Skink Krox units and a Stegadon could easily break quite a number of opponnets, even if both units go to the Front.

They also have some nice if expensive magic defense, even without a Slann.
A Skink Mage on a EOTG with the Diadem can generate 6 Dispell dice on his own (2 pool, 2 for the Skink, 2 from the Diadem). The whole thing costs 400+ points, but it is also available below 2K.

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:30 pm

Good points Mightypeon.

I've crunched a few lists on army builder yesterday and came up with this, it was my first and ai think it's quite nice;

Saurus Oldblood, Carnosaur, Blade of Revered Tzunki, Enchanted Shield, Bane Head = 460

- what no Blade of Realities?!?!11?!

Skink Chief, BSB, Terradon, LA, Spear, Blowpipe, Shield of the Mirrored Pool, Venom of the FF Frog = 164

Skink Priest, lvl 2, EotG A.Stegadon, Diadem, Scroll = 440

12 Saurus, Spears, Std = 156

10 Saurus, spears = 120

10 Saurus, spears = 120

10 Skermishing Skinks = 70

10 Skermishing Skinks = 70

10 Skermishing Skinks = 70

5 Chameleon Skinks = 70

4 Terradons = 120

Salamander = 75

Salamander = 75

2000pts

Furiouscado · Post by **Furiouscado** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:51 pm

I like it. I'm also shocked they took away the blade of realities.. it was useless until the new daemons came out.. they just love maintaining that power gamer potential for daemons... While the old book was out I wanted to make a Nike Saurus Oldblood with that and see how it worked. Now we won't get the chance seeing as the CotJ and the BoR are gone...

Hans von darkelf · Post by **Hans von darkelf** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:11 pm

Just a question, pardon my ignorance, what did the Blade of Realities actually do?

Geoguswrek · Post by **Geoguswrek** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:27 pm

something about no ward save, daemons take double wounds.