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The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – fighting exhausted 
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Corsair
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The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – evaluating DE units.

Boot Camp 0 – Admission
Boot Camp 1 – First Week – resistance to mass shooting
Boot Camp 2 – Second Week – Resistance to a charge
Boot Camp 3 – Third Week – charging destructive power
Boot Camp 4 – Forth Week – killing when exhausted: further rounds of melee
Boot Camp 5 – Fifth Week – doping with a cauldron of blood
Boot Camp 6 – Sixth Week – flag-doping
Boot Camp 7 – Seventh Week – The Monoliths Shooting Range
Boot Camp 8 – Eighth Week – graduation ceremony – unit’s champions.
Boot Camp 9 – Last Week – specialization – departure for War.

Boot Camp extension
Boot Camp 1bis – First Week-end – template vulnerability (considered)

Other DE training rooms (might be considered some day – not necessarily by the same author):
Temple of Khaine’s fencing room
Clar Karond Noblemen’s Arena
Iron Mountains’ Ranch
Ghrond Experimental Lab


It is more exhausting to give a slap
than to receive one.


For a quick conclusion, jump to chapter 2.


Last edited by Calisson on Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:21 pm
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1. Forth Week – fighting exhausted: further rounds of melee.

Principle.
In prolonged fights, all kind of bonuses are quickly lost:
- hitting first
- charge strength bonus
- hatred
- possibly frenzy.

Let’s examine what are the odds in this case.
How does the killing expectancy evolve compared to the first round of charge?

Each unit is fighting each of the opponents who were used in previous threads.
- Norse Marauders, soft targets with little protection, many S3 attacks, but no more frenzy,
- Ogres, soft targets with little protection, high strength (S6) attacks
- Dwarves, medium targets well protected, few S3 attacks,
- Knights, medium targets well protected, many S3 attacks,
- Chariot, hard target heavily armoured, few S4 attacks,
- Dragon, hard target heavily armoured, few high strength (S6) attacks.

There is no penalty for being attacked in the previous week; the missing ranks have been filled up.


1.1. Shielded warriors (using hand weapon)
Not much difference. They were hardly killing anyone when charging, so loosing their hatred is no big deal.
SCR remains more efficient than ACR (but vulnerable to counter charges); no change in CR is expected.
CoB is still interesting: it may increase the CR by 1 against medium targets, possibly by 2 against the softest ones.

1.2. Unshielded Warriors (using spear).
Prolonged fights are very interesting for this unit:
Against soft targets, you can erase between 1 to 4 Marauders and 0 to 4 wounds of ogres before they can strike back. Against medium targets however, you’re lucky to score 1 kill.
The COB brings outstanding results: use +1 attack (except against knights for which KB is more interesting) and you’ll get in average +3 CR against soft targets and, more than half of the time, +1 CR against medium targets.
Against the hardest targets, the 5+ ward save is interesting (1 more survivor).
Overall, this unit with the help of the CoB is likely to win any prolonged combat.


Not killing a lot, being killed en masse, they are helpless in prolonged combats.

1.4. Shielded MXB.
Same results as shielded warriors… but for 4pts more per model and there is spear to choose.

1.5. Corsairs.
They loose 1 or 2 kills against soft targets (expecting 2 kills). They become unlikely to inflict anything on medium and hard targets. Their only chance of winning is the SCR.
COB is more effective for them than it is for warriors: +1attack gives two more wounds on soft targets, KB brings one more dead on medium targets and the ward save saves more of them.

1.6. RHB corsairs.
They remain helpless.

1.7. Shielded DR.
They kill only 1 soft target, and no medium or hard ones. They are bound to loose prolonged melees and you are lucky if you can rescue them or accept loosing them.

1.8. DR.
Same as shielded DR except that they cannot have SCR.

1.9. MXB DR.
Same as DR and more expensive.

1.10. Harpies.
These surprising beasts actually change nothing in their behaviour in following turns of melee: they have no hatred to loose. As long as they survive each round (a challenge for T3, no armour, low Ld), they enter the next round with the same aggressiveness. They are not any better either.

1.11. Armoured shades.
If they survived the first round, they will die later. As mentioned in a previous post, armour hardly makes any difference.

1.12. Shades.
If they survived the first round, they will die later.

1.13. AHW shades.
Loosing hatred, they kill 1 less soft target. It makes no difference against hard ones (no kill). They’ll die quickly.

1.14. GW shades.
They suffer a lot: striking last, 1 to 4 of them will die before striking. They can only loose the combat (and their lives).

1.15. WE.
These chicks are not made for prolonged fighting. They do not stand the distance. By loosing frenzy and hatred, they loose more than half of their killing expectation. It means that their CR worsens by 6 against Marauders and by 4 against Ogres. Against all others, they drop 1 CR compared to previous turns.
WE are supposed to be specialists of soft targets, but they must win and pursue, or they are doomed in the following rounds.

The CoB, however, brings them a lot more than more attacks or KB or save: it makes them stubborn by merely being in vicinity. So, playing MSU style, WE may well be a dangerous foe in the first round and a natural tar pit in the following ones, allowing some chivalrous help to come and rescue them.

1.16. Execs.
Executioners do not loose much of their efficiency… except that they strike last. Here, the key is the opponent’s number of attacks. With one attack per model, the opponent is bound to loose. With two attacks per model, the number of kills is even. If the opponent has more attacks per model, the execs will loose the attrition war.

With the boost of the COB doubling their attacks, they remain very efficient in subsequent turns of melee:
Facing many high S attacks (Ogres, Dragons) it is interesting to provide them with the 5+ ward save. Facing other troops, +1 att will give them an impressive boost. With the CoB, they are likely to win a prolonged fight against anyone, save the dragon against which they got an even fight.

1.17. BG.
Their performance remains the same as in the first round: their hatred is really eternal. The difference is that in following turns, their high initiative allows them to strike first and therefore to suffer fewer losses.
These tough guys are likely to win the combat, whatever long it is. If, for some reason, they loose, being naturally stubborn with a high Ld will allow them to remain stoically until someone comes and rescue them.
With the COB (+1 attack), they are dreadful.

1.18. COK.
In average, they drop their kill rate by 2. Against armoured troops, they are not good anymore.
The CoB doesn’t help them much and the hydra banner does not work that long. Only their good armour saves them from S3 or S4 attacks.
It means that if they miss the first round of melee, they will become glued, possibly until someone else helps them to get unstuck. It is a good idea to have a supporting unit ready to help the COK get out of a prolonged melee, in order for them to get ready to charge someone else.

1.19. COC.
This is the unit which looses the most of its efficiency in subsequent rounds of melee. A chariot loose 2 ACR compared to the round in which he charged!
However, they are extremely tough and only hard hitters will wound them. Even if they loose from SCR, their good Ld should allow them to stay, and even if they flee, they are quicker than infantry. And they should rally.
Like COK, it is worth having a supporting unit in order to help them to get out of melee and get ready for another charge.

1.20. Hydra & beastmasters.
They would kill 1 less model in following rounds, which is still a lot (1 to 3 kills remaining, depending on the opponent). Hardly anyone can wound the hydra save the dragon. Nothing to worry about, then, the hydra will keep downsizing progressively the unit it faces until that unit has no more SCR, looses combat and autobreaks. No support needed.


Last edited by Calisson on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:23 pm
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2. Discussion about follow-on support and tar pits.

As we just have seen, some troops are more sustainable than others during prolonged fights.
Let’s review what the different categories are.



Some troops need help to get out of melee.

COC and COK, if they don’t win the first round of melee (or if they are charged), need the support of some other troop in order to win that fight and get ready to start another one. It is a good idea to keep some troop in reserve in the nearby when they charge (or are about to be charged).

“These pitiful plebeians are not worth of us fighting them, are they?
Let’s have some of our follower infantry finish off our left-over. “


The hydra is likely to loose the melee against opponents with big SCR. In that case, a rescue counter attack will allow it not to be trampled. In subsequent rounds, the hydra gets more likely to win, after progressively thinning out the opponent’s SCR.



Some troops can remain in melee with little or no help.

Excecs need and benefit a lot from the CoB. Some of them die quickly but the remaining ones kill extremely efficiently. They are doing their job.
The combo Exec backed with CoB is extremely powerful.

“Khaine will be satisfied. Both for our kills and for our deaths.”

BG are at home in the melee, where they fear no shooting nor magic missiles. They can stay with little or no support. The Cob boost will benefit them heavily.

Only in case they can benefit from the help of the CoB, big blocks of Warriors, shielded or not but using their spears, are not unlikely to win the attrition war.

The same is valid for corsairs as well, with a greater influence of the CoB.



Some troops may resist long enough for their sacrifice to be useful.

Big blocks of Warriors, shielded or not, will loose gradually their SCR. As long as they are killed in a sustainable rate, they may delay the enemy for a long time.

The same applies for big blocks of corsairs.

WE die quickly, however, these frivolous chicks refuse to quit if they are made stubborn by the CoB!
Especially backed with a COB BSB, they make a highly effective tar pit… as long as they last, loosing 2 to 4 of them each round.
The combo of many small WE units in range of a COB BSB should prove very long to overcome in melee… providing ample time for a gallant’s rescue.

Witchbrew can be used instead of CoB (even if the DH has been killed, the witchbrew keeps its effects), however, their morale test would still suffer from their many losses and the enemy’s SCR, so witchbrew cannot be considered as the “poor WE’s cauldron”.

“- Break away, girls, I’m telling you, it’s hopeless!
- Shut up you macho! Enough of male ruling! We stay as long as we decide!”




Some troops are helpless in melee, any help is a pure waste.

Their best hope is to loose combat before they are all killed, flee as quickly as possible and remain unnoticed when they rally.
Small units of warriors, MXB, RHB corsairs, small units of corsairs, all kind of DR, harpies, all kind of shades are to be considered like this.


Last edited by Calisson on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:24 pm
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3. End of the third week.

“Shame on you! You claim to be able to fight but when facing the slightest resistance, you’re worth nothing. "

To be continued in another thread.
(see hyperlinks in the beginning of the thread).

There are still unanswered questions:
Examine if the COB is cost-effective (+1 att or KB, costing 200pts/6, not working on mounts nor harpies), same for the hydra banner (+1 att, costing 202 pts, replacing COB for cavalry), and AP banner (25 pts + standard bearer).
We will examine that in the following Boot Camp Weeks.

If you find that some of the conclusions drawn here are inconsistent with your own feeling, it could be worth investigating. I could further analyse the reasons for the divergence – or identify the flaw in my reasoning, and correct it for the sake of all D.netters.

I am eager to learn about actual successful / unsuccessful live experience in application of this lengthy theory-hammering.

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Last edited by Calisson on Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:25 pm
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4. Stats Records.

Stats below are obtained in prolonged fights, after loosing all kind of bonuses (hatred, frenzy, strength).
Warrior & shield fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -3,2 2,0
Warrior & shield fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 0,4
Warrior & shield fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,2 0,5
Warrior & shield fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,2 0,3
Warrior & shield fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,2 -0,1
Warrior & shield fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,3
Warrior & shield fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,6 -0,1
Warrior & shield fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,5
Warrior fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -5,0 3,7
Warrior fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,4 2,4
Warrior fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,8 0,9
Warrior fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,8 0,6
Warrior fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,9 -0,2
Warrior fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
Warrior fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,8 -0,3
Warrior fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
MXB fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -5,3 1,5
MXB fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 0,4
MXB fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,9 0,3
MXB fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,9 0,2
MXB fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,9 -0,2
MXB fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,3
MXB fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,8 -0,3
MXB fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,5
MXB & shield fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -3,2 2,0
MXB & shield fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 0,4
MXB & shield fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,2 0,5
MXB & shield fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,2 0,3
MXB & shield fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,2 -0,1
MXB & shield fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,3
MXB & shield fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,6 -0,1
MXB & shield fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,5
Corsair fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -4,0 4,0
Corsair fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,4 2,4
Corsair fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,9
Corsair fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,7
Corsair fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,1
Corsair fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
Corsair fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,3 -0,3
Corsair fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
Corsair & RHB fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -4,3 1,8
Corsair & RHB fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 0,4
Corsair & RHB fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,4
Corsair & RHB fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,3
Corsair & RHB fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,1
Corsair & RHB fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,3
Corsair & RHB fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,3 -0,3
Corsair & RHB fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,5
DR & shield fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -2,9 4,1
DR & shield fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,6 1,9
DR & shield fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,1 1,0
DR & shield fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,2 0,7
DR & shield fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,2 -0,1
DR & shield fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
DR & shield fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,1 -0,2
DR & shield fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
DR fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -4,0 4,0
DR fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,6 1,9
DR fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,9
DR fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,7
DR fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,1
DR fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
DR fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,3 -0,3
DR fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
DR & MXB fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -4,0 4,0
DR & MXB fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,6 1,9
DR & MXB fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,9
DR & MXB fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,5 0,7
DR & MXB fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,1
DR & MXB fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
DR & MXB fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,3 -0,3
DR & MXB fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
Harpies fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -7,7 2,7
Harpies fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 1,5
Harpies fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -2,7 0,5
Harpies fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -2,8 0,3
Harpies fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -2,2 -0,3
Harpies fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
Harpies fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,5
Harpies fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
Shade & armour fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -5,0 2,1
Shade & armour fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 0,4
Shade & armour fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,8 0,5
Shade & armour fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,9 0,3
Shade & armour fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,9 -0,2
Shade & armour fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,3
Shade & armour fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,5
Shade & armour fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,5
Shade fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -6,0 1,8
Shade fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,7 0,4
Shade fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -2,2 0,4
Shade fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -2,2 0,2
Shade fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -2,2 -0,3
Shade fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,3
Shade fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,5
Shade fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,5
Shade & AHW fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -5,5 4,6
Shade & AHW fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,4 2,4
Shade & AHW fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -2,1 1,1
Shade & AHW fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -2,2 0,8
Shade & AHW fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -2,2 -0,3
Shade & AHW fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,5
Shade & AHW fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,5
Shade & AHW fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,7 -2,2
Shade & GW fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -5,0 3,1
Shade & GW fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -4,9 1,9
Shade & GW fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,7 2,2
Shade & GW fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,8 2,1
Shade & GW fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -2,2 -0,3
Shade & GW fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,1 1,5
Shade & GW fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,5
Shade & GW fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,6 -1,7
WE fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -5,5 4,6
WE fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -4,8 4,0
WE fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -2,1 1,5
WE fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -2,2 0,8
WE fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -2,2 -0,3
WE fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,1 1,4
WE fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,5
WE fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,6 -1,3
Exec fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -3,0 3,6
Exec fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -4,4 2,4
Exec fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -0,4 3,5
Exec fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -0,7 3,1
Exec fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,1
Exec fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,4 2,4
Exec fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,3 -0,3
Exec fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,4 -0,9
BG fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -2,6 6,5
BG fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -4,8 4,0
BG fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -1,3 2,9
BG fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -1,3 2,6
BG fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,5 -0,1
BG fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,1 1,6
BG fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -1,3 -0,3
BG fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -4,6 -1,9
COK fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range 0,3 6,2
COK fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -3,4 4,3
COK fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -0,2 2,7
COK fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -0,2 2,4
COK fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -0,4 0,0
COK fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,1 1,6
COK fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,6 -0,1
COK fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -3,7 -0,4
COC fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -0,3 2,5
COC fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -5,1 0,8
COC fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -0,2 1,1
COC fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -0,2 1,0
COC fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -0,3 0,0
COC fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,0 0,6
COC fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,5 0,0
COC fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -3,7 -0,9
Hydra fighting Marauders expect an active CR in the range -1,5 6,9
Hydra fighting Ogres expect an active CR in the range -3,1 6,4
Hydra fighting Dwarves expect an active CR in the range -0,7 3,6
Hydra fighting Heavy cavalry expect an active CR in the range -0,7 3,4
Hydra fighting Horses expect an active CR in the range -1,0 -0,1
Hydra fighting Chariot expect an active CR in the range 0,2 2,6
Hydra fighting Mount expect an active CR in the range -0,3 0,0
Hydra fighting Dragon expect an active CR in the range -2,4 1,5.


Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:26 pm
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There are a couplr og assumptions here that do not have to be so:

a second round of combat can also be yhe result of the opponent rolling snake eyes on their break test, so, WE do not have to have lost frenzy for example.

also, almost every time we sill strike first on ini. only the hydra and cold ones can be assured off of going last, and GW using execs/shades

also, execs can easily have chosen hw over gw to keep on fighting in ini (when it does not matter on AS, or hardly matters, and ye can see a loss coming, why not? they do not lose KB for using hw.

another very important part is where they stand, a true druchii will still try to take the flank, less attacks against instead of frontal attacks.

Basically, this does not compare to my experiences, but that is actually mostly dye to for example, using dheilded warriors with spears, execs with hw, but most off all, where i charge, i try to minimize enemy attacks (flanks over rear) and a second round is most often due to enemy making a breaktest.

all sacrifices are wiped out in turn 1 or are planned to survive on stubborn (exception, when i roll snake eyes for the lone surviving harpy, which i do quite often it seems)

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Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:41 pm
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@ Mirz Do Ordas 2
Thank you for your clarification requests.

The asnwers I can provide are as follows:
a second round of combat can also be the result of the opponent rolling snake eyes on their break test, so, WE do not have to have lost frenzy for example.
Yes, true.
Frenzied troops do not loose their frenziness except after loosing once a melee. Hence they may loose it or not.
As the thread is about fighting while exhausted, I dropped the frenziness (for Marauders as well).
In this way, you can only have a good surprise if they keep the frenziness... provided they survived at all, which is very far from granted.

also, almost every time we sill strike first on ini. only the hydra and cold ones can be assured off of going last, and GW using execs/shades
True.
I took this point into account, but only in my discussion, not in the numbrers provided in the last post.
I mean that, for example, when I expected the DE to kill an average of 2 Marauders out of 5, I did take into account that the DE killed by the remaining Marauders should be 3/5 of the number I provide in the last post.
However, most of the time, some the hits are not very effective (either DE's or their foe's) and initiative does not make much difference in the amount of DE killed by the enemy.

also, execs can easily have chosen hw over gw to keep on fighting in ini (when it does not matter on AS, or hardly matters, and you can see a loss coming, why not? they do not lose KB for using hw.
True. In that case, the stats for "naked" shades apply (they are just more expensive, hence less cost-effective). It is up to you to choose.
Now, most of the time, it does not make much difference, shades are very vulnerable anyway.

Also, you should be aware that KB is not that much effective: it has no effect on chariot, monster, ogre nor marauders (having no armour). And it happens only once every 6 wounds (requiring to hit successfully first).
We will see that better with the next thread about "doping".

If they are charging, GW are always more effective, so better take the risk to strike last on following turns (except against troops with low armor).
If they are not charging, they are dead anyway, but their little hope is still to use, once, GW for the survivors if requested by the enemy's armor, or their handweapon if facing E3, svg5+ troops. They will die at the end of next round anyway.
That is just my opinion after having seen the stats for only 6 different foes. All real combats are specific.

another very important part is where they stand, a true druchii will still try to take the flank, less attacks against instead of frontal attacks.
Basically, this does not compare to my experiences, but that is actually mostly due to for example, using sheilded warriors with spears, execs with hw, but most off all, where i charge, i try to minimize enemy attacks (flanks over rear) and a second round is most often due to enemy making a breaktest.

Very true! It is not my topic, I wanted to isolate the ACR factors, but of course, you should try to deny the opponent's SCR whenvever you can.
Actually, with the previous army book, it was mostly through this kind of behaviour that DE could usually win, and not by ACR.

all sacrifices are wiped out in turn 1 or are planned to survive on stubborn (exception, when i roll snake eyes for the lone surviving harpy, which i do quite often it seems)
That is another topic. I fully agree that you should not expect the lightest troops to survive at all, and that stubborness is very useful for the eventual last survivor to delay the enemy one more turn.


Thank you so much to participate in the discussion, at least it shows an interest in my thread. :D
I hope that this kind of modelization helps people to establish a proper army list, without too wrong expectations, and help them also to have sound reactions during battles.
My aim in these threads is not to give whatever "Truth" for everyone to accept without criticizm.
On the contrary, I am glad to start a debate.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:00 pm
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