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The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – doping with a cauldron of blood 
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Corsair
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The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – evaluating DE units.

Boot Camp 0 – Admission
Boot Camp 1 – First Week – resistance to mass shooting
Boot Camp 2 – Second Week – Resistance to a charge
Boot Camp 3 – Third Week – charging destructive power
Boot Camp 4 – Forth Week – killing when exhausted: further rounds of melee
Boot Camp 5 – Fifth Week – doping with a cauldron of blood
Boot Camp 6 – Sixth Week – flag-doping
Boot Camp 7 – Seventh Week – The Monoliths Shooting Range
Boot Camp 8 – Eighth Week – graduation ceremony – unit’s champions.
Boot Camp 9 – Last Week – specialization – departure for War.

Boot Camp extension
Boot Camp 1bis – First Week-end – template vulnerability (considered)

Other DE training rooms (might be considered some day – not necessarily by the same author):
Temple of Khaine’s fencing room
Clar Karond Noblemen’s Arena
Iron Mountains’ Ranch
Ghrond Experimental Lab


“The policy about drugs and other dopes in this camp is very strict:
Zero tolerance for refusing to take benefit from this excellent combat help.
Anyone refusing to take dope will be prosecuted.
On a second refusal, he will be fired (preferably inside a cauldron).”


For a quick conclusion, jump to the last chapter.


Last edited by Calisson on Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:29 pm
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1. Fifth Week – doping with the Cauldron.

We have seen in previous threads which units are at their best charging, receiving charges or remaining in melee.

This time, we will see how cost-effective it is to use some combat magic in complement of the units.
This week, we'll investigate the COB. The following week, it will be diverse banners.
What is to be evaluated is if, when providing a combat enhancement, the result is sufficiently improved to justify the cost of the enhancement.

We will first determine whether and when it is better to use KB or +1 attack with the COB.
Next, we will examine the COB 5+ ward save cost-effectiveness.
Then we will investigate if taking the COB as combat-enhancement is cost-effective.

“Do I have to drink that?
- No! You just need to smell it, and it can be done at distance. A mere sniff at 24 paces will unveil all your hidden fighting talents. Take a deep breath, my friend, and you'll see the warrior's paradise!”


Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:29 pm
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2. Lore of Khaine

The Cauldron of Blood can be compared to a magic-user on her mount.
The pts value is similar to a level 2 sorceress on a Pegasus. Like a peggy-mounted sorc, it may not join any unit.
For that price, the mobility is far less, but there is a strong resistance to shooting and melee alike. That is just a different defensive system.

Khaine’s Lore has a limited number of spells, only 3, but all 3 are known all the time.
The Lore has no magic missile, just two melee enhancements and a save.
The range is excellent: 24”, all the more that it needs to target only friendly units.
The duration is long, lasting until the opponent’s turn.
The spells are cast automatically; they never miscast nor can be dispelled.

Overall, compared to a magic-user, the COB is far more reliable and arguably as potent, although less versatile.
The COB does not provide additional dispel dice but provides stubbornness to Khainite units and can be upgraded to BSB.

For all these reasons, I like better to compare the COB to a sorceress than to a master and his mount.

“So, your Khaine thing, is it a kind of magic or what?
- Sacrilege! It has nothing to do with magic bestowed by the winds of Chaos. This is the blessing of a God!”


Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:30 pm
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3. +1 attack or KB?

Obviously, sometimes KB has no effect at all and only +1 attack is worth taking:
- If the enemy is immune to KB: US of 3 or more per model (ogres), monsters, chariots…
- If the enemy has no armour save (taking into account the strength of the attack and its AP property).
- if you already have KB (execs).

Now, when the KB has some effect, is it more interesting than one more attack?
Not necessarily.
Let’s do some maths (easy ones).

A = number of attacks.
H = chances to hit
W = chances to wound (depends on the Strength minus the Endurance)
S = chances to pass the armour save (depends on the armour, diminished by the strength of the attack and if it is AP).

KB is more interesting than one more attack only if:
Chances of KB + chances of killing when KB misses > chances of killing without KB but with 1 more attack
<=> A x H x 1/6 + A x H x (W-1/6) x (1-S) > (A+1) x H x W x (1-S)
It can be seen immediately that H has no effect and can be removed from both sides of the inequality.
<=> A x 1/6 + A x (W-1/6) x (1-S) > (A+1) x W x (1-S)
<=> A/6 + AW- A/6 –AWS + AS/6 > AW – AWS + W - WS
<=> A/6 - A/6 - W + AW- AW + AWS –AWS + AS/6 + WS >0
<=> - W + AS/6 + WS >0
<=> AS/6 > W - WS
<=> A > 6W (1 – S) / S
<=> A x S/(1-S) > 6W

So this is the equation to remember:
A x S/(1-S) > 6W

What is 6W? It is the number of dice rolls that can wound, out of the possible 6 results on a die. That is, if you need 3+ to wound, then 3-4-5-6 can wound, which is 4/6, so 6W is 4.
6W is between 0 and 5. Usually it is close to 3.

Examples:
If you have S3, your opponent has E4, you need 5+ to wound, so W = 2/6, so 6W = 2.
If you have S4, your opponent has E3, you need 3+ to wound, so W = 4/6, so 6W = 4.
By the way, yes, you could KB someone that you could not even wound… So KB is interesting when 6W=0! (unsure if it can ever be met).

What is S/(1-S) = the “armour save factor”?
Save 6+, S = 1/6, S/(1-S) = 1/(6-1) = 1/5
Save 5+, S = 2/6, S/(1-S) = 2/(6-2) = 1/2
Save 4+, S = 3/6, S/(1-S) = 3/(6-3) = 1
Save 3+, S = 4/6, S/(1-S) = 4/(6-4) = 2
Save 2+, S = 5/6, S/(1-S) = 5/(6-5) = 5
where “save” includes the weapon & strength penetration.

A”, the number of attacks, is usually 1, sometimes 2 (BG, WE, corsairs), seldom 3 (frenzied corsairs and WE).
Well, I know, for WE the equation is not valid, the poison changes slightly the equation, I am too lazy to figure out how much (and I don’t own any WE either).


The result of the equation is the following:

For save 2+, it is always more interesting to get KB.

For save 3+, it depends on the number of the attacks.
- with 1 attack, get 1 more attack.
- with 2 attacks,
if you wound on 4+ or less often then take KB;
if you wound on 3+, the stats are the same for KB and +1 att (except for WE, because of their poison, KB is slightly less effective, so take rather +1 att);
if you wound on 2+ then take one more attack.
- with 3 attacks, take KB.

For save 4+, take +1 attack, unless you have already 3 attacks and you wound only on 5 or 6, then KB is better.

For save 5+ or 6+, one more attack is always best.

Example:
Corsairs attacking E3 foes with heavy armour, hand weapon and shield, granting them save 3+:
Is A x S/(1-S) > 6W? => 2 x 2 > 3? => Yes, so take KB.
Now, the same unit was taken on its flank, denying the hand weapon + shield front bonus, and the save is 4+ instead.
Is A x S/(1-S) > 6W? => 2 x 1 > 3? => No, so take one more attack.

Other example: frenzied corsairs attacking 4+ save troops.
If they are E4, KB is better, if they are E3, +1 att is better.


Too much to recall?
Try to remember the simplified version:
Heaviest armour, saving 2+, KB is better.
Next to heaviest armour, saving 3+, a 2nd attack is necessary, and if you have already 2 attacks, then get KB.
Medium armour to no armour, saving 4+, 5+, 6+ or no save, get +1 attack.

“Is it better to have quality or quantity?
Sometimes, you need to kill more. Sometimes, you need to kill better.
But always with respect to Khaine and his blessings”


Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:30 pm
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4. 5+ ward save.

Let's consider that the cost for this ward save is 33,3 pts (the minimal COB costs 200 pts and it can provide its blessing 6 times in a game).
For that cost, we would spare the lives of 1/3 of the expected deaths.

With this consideration, we would find the COB’s 5+ws to be cost-effective if more than 100 pts (33.3 x 3) of the protected unit would have been killed during the player’s turn and the opposing player’s turn: the COB would then spare the corresponding cost.


When fighting in a melee against the now familiar six usual standard foes (Marauders, Ogres, Dwarves, Knights, DE COC and naked Dragon), how often does it happen that 100 pts of unit are destroyed in 2 rounds of melee?

In the stats below, I indicate how many models means 100 pts of unit, and which opponent can kill that in two rounds of melee (among the six usual sample opponents that I am taking in the Boot Camp threads).
9,1 Harpies (they cannot benefit from COB anyway)
14 shielded warriors (it never happens)
17 unshielded warriors (it never happens)
10 MXB (it never happens)
9,1 shielded MXB (it never happens)
10 Corsairs (it never happens)
10 RHB Corsairs (it never happens)
10 WE (it never happens)
8,3 Execs (it never happens)
4 wounds of Hydra (it never happens)

4 wounds of COC (it could happen when fighting S6 foes) – remember, the COC has 4 wounds…
5,6 shielded DR (it could happen when fighting S6 foes)
5,9 DR (it could happen when fighting S6 foes)
7,7 BG (it could happen when fighting S6 foes)
3,7 COK (it could happen when fighting S6 foes)

4,5 MXB DR (it could happen when fighting Marauders or S6 foes)
5,9 armoured shades (it could happen when fighting Marauders or S6 foes)
6,3 shades (it could happen when fighting Marauders or S6 foes)
5,9 AHW shades (it could happen when fighting Marauders or S6 foes)
5,6 GW shades (it could happen when fighting Marauders or S6 foes)


Summary of melee benefit:
When we check how many wounds would be taken in the first two rounds of combat, we find out that the COB is cost-effective against strong attacks for some units (BG, COK, COC, shielded DR, DR) and sometimes against many S3 attacks as well (MXB DR and all kind of shades).
However, in all the mentioned cases, even with 1/3 less killed thanks to the CoB, there still would be close to 5 or even more killed. It means that a unit of 5 models would be wiped away, less severely thanks to the CoB, but wiped away anyhow…
The only case when a COB is cost-effective and effective as well is for helping COK facing high strength attacks. However, in melee, the COB can be used aggressively instead. We will see further that it is better to grant the COK an offensive blessing than the ward save in melee.

Overall, the COB 5+ ward save in melee is either not cost effective, or not effective enough to save the unit.

Reducing the kills from 9 to 6 may be cost-effective but not effective!
Building an army with the intention of using the COB only for its ward save in melee is never a good idea. The 5+ ward save must be used only when no better use for the COB is available.


Protection from shooting.This time, there may be many shots towards a single unit.

The question is: for how many expected shots would the COB be cost-effective?
Harpies cannot benefit from COB
shielded warriors: more than 40 shots
unshielded warriors: more than 40 shots
COC: more than 40 shots
Hydra: more than 40 shots

MXB: more than 30 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
shielded MXB: more than 30 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
Corsairs: more than 35 bullets or 40 shots
RHB Corsairs: more than 35 bullets or 40 shots
shades: more than 30 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
WE: more than 30 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows

shielded DR: more than 20 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
DR: more than 20 shots worse than arrows or 35 arrows
MXB DR: more than 15 shots worse than arrows or 30 arrows
armoured shades: more than 25 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
AHW shades: more than 25 shots worse than arrows or 35 arrows
GW shades: more than 25 shots worse than arrows or 35 arrows
Execs: more than 25 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
BG: more than 25 shots worse than arrows or 40 arrows
COK: more than 20 bullets, 30 bolts or 40 arrows


Against shooting, the COB is cost-effective only when receiving more than 20 strong shots (gunpowder, crossbow) on a single unit.
When facing such a strong gun line, it is much more effective to take more models than to protect them with a COB!
Again, COB ward save is never efficient enough against shooting to justify its cost. It must be used only when no better use for the COB is available.


As a conclusion about 5+ ward save:
Do not build your army around this save.
Provide the ward save only when no other efficient use is available.



“Khaine wants blood.
Khaine wants kills.
Khaine likes better increasing your kills than preserving your lives.
Only when you cannot kill anything does Khaine consent to preserve your killing potential for the future.”


Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:31 pm
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5. Cost-effectiveness considerations.

Warning: This chapter is off-topic.

Trying to define the cost-effectiveness is very hard.
In this paragraph, I just explain what I mean by cost, effectiveness, and cost-effectiveness.
No result in this paragraph, just definitions and explanations, in order to explain how far from mathematical accuracy it is.

Cost.
What is the cost of the COB? Let’s consider it is 200 pts, the bare minimum.
How can I compare it to the cost of a banner? No banner costs that much! Unless you take the BSB.
We need to refine that.

COB and banners are used to enhance melee. The more melees are fought by the boosted unit, the better the points are spent.

Now, our experience shows that a melee unit is never in melee all 6 turns of a battle.
Let’s consider that an average melee unit (seeking the melee for which it is designed) manages in principle to get twice in melee in a full game. I don’t say it is a statistic, but rather it is my best estimation. That would mean that the cost of the unit is spent mostly for that two turns of melee (not taking into account anything for staying alive, occupying ¼ table…). If I boost the unit with a banner (or a BSB), the cost of the banner will be spent just for those 2 rounds of melee.

As a comparison, how often the COB will “help” units in melee in a game? More often: there's nearly at any time some fighting unit in vicinity, not always the same, which will benefit from the COB's blessing. Let’s assume the COB is melee-effective during 4 rounds, the blessing jumping from one unit to another one according to the needs. If it was the case, then the cost of the COB could be spread over 4 turns of melee. This is twice as many melees than the previous 2 turns considered for a melee unit.

For this reason, I intend to “charge” only half of the COB’s value, while I will “charge” the total value of a banner when I will study them, just because the COB’s help will be likely to be used twice as often as the banner’s help.


Effectiveness.
After the cost consideration, already debatable, what about the effectiveness consideration?
A unit is effective in melee if it destroys the opponent.
Would the same unit, by killing twice as many models thanks to the COB, be considered twice as much efficient?

Not necessarily.
Let’s consider 10 warriors, and compare them to the same unit COB-boosted with twice as many attacks.
They charge a magician. Instead of making 2 wounds, they will make 4. Same result (dead magician), the magician has only 2 wounds.
Now, they charge a COC. Instead of making 0 wounds, they will make still 0 wounds in average. Same result.

There we can see with these two examples that by doubling the “killing production”, we do not double necessarily the efficiency.
This is because the killing efficiency is not linear, but has a threshold. It becomes very complex to evaluate, and certainly beyond my mathematical abilities.

So why bother trying to establish a cost-efficiency at all?
Actually, I do not intend to define a scale for effectiveness, but rather to determine if something is more or less effective than something else.
Being more effective will just mean here to make more killings. Of course, it may not be the case, because of the threshold effect. However, in the course of many combats, making more kills will sooner or later mean something, in average. I know it is not perfect but this is what I will take, not being satisfied by an mere inspired feeling after a good breath.


Cost-effectiveness.
I will consider that any poor result is not cost-effective, even if achieved at low cost: we need results.
I mean, if instead of 0.1 kills expected, I get 0.3, it is not significant and I consider it not cost-efficient.
Among the significant results established in my spreadsheet, I divided the kills to be expected by the cost of the unit, multiplied by 100pts, and the result is the “kills per 100 pts”, which allowed me to compare the units to each other. Incidentally, I considered the COB to cost 100 pts (it costs 200pts but is used twice as often as units or banners), which allowed it to be compared to the units.
In this thread, I will consider only units where all members can fight, everyone in the front rank and no rank bonus.

This is what I will be dealing with in the next paragraph.


Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:32 pm
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6. Cost-effectiveness of a COB.

We consider the COB at his best (KB or +1 att, whichever is best).

With the previous considerations, is the COB cost-effective?
For which units is the COB's help most cost-effective?

The results of my evaluations on units of 5 models (all hitting), fighting the usual foes considered in the Boot Camp threads, are:

Execs are the best receptacle for the COB blessing.
You can expect 3 additional kills just thanks to the COB's blessing on 5 Execs against soft or medium targets alike! Against harder targets, the COB adds at least 1 more wound for 5 execs.
For a development on how to use the Execs and COB, see the thread:
MSX = 3 execs + COB = The "Burger Khaine"
This thread received some comments from experienced people.

The COB will be nearly as effective with GW-shades and COK (especially when charging).
For these units, the COB will deal nearly around 2 additional kills just thanks to the COB boost on 5 models of the considered unit.

The COB is half less as effective with BG, and with warriors (2 rows of 5 models using their lance), WE, and any kind of DR (especially when charging).
With them, a COB would routinely add 1 more kill per 5 models of the considered unit (per 10 models for the warriors using their lance).

For all other units, the COB is just not worth its cost.
Sure it would boost them, but don’t expect even one more kill in average per 5 models of the considered unit.

The meaning of that is, if you hesitate between several units to benefit from the COB, and if all units are roughly the same size (5 models hitting in the front rank), you should provide COB's boost, with the priority below, to:
Execs, GW-shades, COK,
BG, lance warriors, WE, DR
Anything else.


As a comparison, 100 pts of MSU units, where all models could hit, would deal in the same standardized sample fights I'm using in the Boot Camp threads, but without COB:
6 kills for 100pts of WE
4 kills for 100pts of Execs and BG
3 kills for 100pts of lance warriors, Corsairs and COK. The COB at its best is in this range.
2 kills for 100pts of GW shades, shielded warriors, hydra, DR, COC, ahw shades. You must be happy if you can bring the COB to this level.
It means that, when building an army list, you should be aware that the killing expectancy of 100 pts of WE is more than Execs and BG, and so on.
Of course, if you pay for additional ranks, then the cost per kill rises and the kills per 100 pts decrease.


Let's combine the consideration of COB cost-effectiveness with consideration of the killing expectancy of 100 pts of different units. That could help design an army.
We find that for Execs in more than a single rank, the COB is a cost effective boost.
COB is cost-effective with GW shades. However, these fragile troops with no SCR are not likely to survive several fights.
The COB is quite effective with COK. However, it is much slower so its effectiveness may not be available.
For these units, paying for a COB rather than take another unit makes sense.
With BG, 100 pts of front line would bring 4 kills when the COB would add 1 more: it seems better to build a bigger BG unit than to make a combo with COB. Same for warriors, WE, DR and everything else.


As a conclusion, the COB is a must-have with execs.
When creating your army, you should consider taking a COB as soon as you take some Execs, and you should take enough Execs to make sure they survive long enough to get the benefit of the COB in melee (as a rule of the thumb, 20 Execs seems good, either in 1 big block, 2 medium units or 3 small MSX units).

If not taking Execs when building your army, however, the COB may not be that much interesting and you could rather consider to take more units instead. Its killing enhancement is not enough to justify its cost, but I did not include other considerations such as making Khainites stubborn, denying pts, occupying ¼ table, and the priceless convenience to add a boost just where it is needed.

While playing, once you have a COB, then it will benefit not only to Execs, but also to GW-shades, COK, BG, lance warriors, WE, and DR.
It is a good idea to keep this kind of units in range of the COB and to let other kind of units out of range.


Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:33 pm
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7. End of the fifth week.

“(singing) Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of blood...
- oh, I see, they forgot to warn you, don't drink too much at one time. By the way, don't have some more too soon or you'll get addicted. But are you in a state to hear this advice?”


Next week, we will see what happens with the other combat enhancements: banners, standards and pennants.

If you find that some of the conclusions drawn here are inconsistent with your own feeling, it could be worth investigating. I could further analyse the reasons for the divergence – or identify the flaw in my reasoning, and correct it for the sake of all D.netters.

I am eager to learn about actual successful / unsuccessful live experience in application of this lengthy theory-hammering.

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Last edited by Calisson on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:35 pm
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8. Stats Records.

“What becomes of fighters after having smelled or drunk the content of the Cauldron must remain a Khaine's mystery.
Nobody should dare ask the Supreme Mistress Hag Queen.
Ever.”


The Covenant's cook.


Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:35 pm
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You should factor into your equations the fact that in many instances, a Druchii General would run infantry blocks such as Corsairs, Executioners and Black Guard 7 wide. Probably Witch Elves too.


Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:49 pm
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True.

I did not include any character in the Boot Camp threads because:
- they are above the mundane concept of the Boot Camp (fluff reason);
- my Boot Camp threads are long already, to increase their size to the point of evaluating each possible combo with one or several characters would make them terrible to read (alledged reason) - and worse to write :roll: (real reason).

I choose to keep all units 5 wide for comparison purpose.
I do not advocate to keep them 5 wide, as you will see in the next "Week".
As the evaluation is usually "per point", having a 5 or 7 wide unit does not change anything for the front rank - it just increases the cost of the additional rank.

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:43 am
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I would second your advice about never using the 5+ ward unless you've nothing else to do. If you're using it to - for instance - protect a unit that has recieved a charge, you've already made a mistake. You should have used your excellent Dark Elven units of botheration - i.e. Dark Riders, Harpies, Shades - to ensure that your killer unit got the charge.

That's the point with the Cauldron, and all the other Khainite units. Charge or die. Let other Elves die to obtain this favourable circumstance. Khaine would be better pleased that such insignificant creatures die than his own chosen. So the 5+ ward is only to be used for protecting units from shooting or magic in the first turn or two when there is no melee happening, you know, just because you can.

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Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:01 am
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Please don't crucify me for threadomancy - I figured as this is the DRAICH then any extra info/thoughts might help - I think I disagree with the statement that its wasted on any other units as I think corsairs with 2 hand weapons make idea choices for any cauldron effect: more so with KB than witch elves as they dont have the 'poison blocker' effect - ie. any poisoned hits can't then cause KB - corsairs can as they have no poisoned attacks :) Corsairs have numerous builds that can then capitalise on the Cauldron - for instance either of the commonly used Corsair Banners (Sea Serpent Standard or Banner of Murder) works excellently with +1Attack, and SSS more so with KB :D

Anyway just some additional thoughts! Thats for the reference though Calisson - ever extremely useful with great input and ideas - point taken on the executioners front: I think 2 units of 12 would work great with the Cauldron - perhaps one with a ASF Hag BSB? Seems pretty common - as a quick aside however, how would this unit compare to a similarly costing unit of 6 Cold One Knights?

Ie. would 12 Executioners (No BSB with ASF, 2x6 formation, or possibly 7 with 5 behind) do better or work than a unit of 6 COld One knights + Cauldron? Is there a limit of when COKs would work better/worse - eg. against harder targets would COKs prove better or would Exes beat them?

Its a debate Ive been having in my lists: COKs or Exes??!!

- Beanz

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Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:53 am
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I'll admit that I've never used Execs but from my experience CoK with the blessing are simply amazing. They can take on many unis from the front and have a much longer charge range than Execs do. They also have greater survivability due to better armor save but have less wounds per unit as a result.

Every once in a while stupidity will bite you but for me its worth the advantages. I can't really think of a reason when I would take Execs over CoKs. Anything that Execs can do CoK can do just as well or better. CoKs are better on the charge (steed attacks) and arguably better in subsequent rounds( no GW, good initiative, 2 S4).


Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:42 am
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Dangerous Beans wrote:
Please don't crucify me for threadomancy - I figured as this is the DRAICH then any extra info/thoughts might help
=> it's not threadomancy: the 7th army book is still in use, ;) AND you bring forward some elaborated argument.

Calisson - ever extremely useful with great input and ideas
Welcome! I was wondering how apreciated was this work :D

I think corsairs with 2 hand weapons make idea choices for any cauldron effect: more so with KB than witch elves as they dont have the 'poison blocker' effect - ie. any poisoned hits can't then cause KB
WE are still better thanks to inherent frenzy: 3 attacks instead of 2, and only 1/6 got poison and not KB

Corsairs have numerous builds that can then capitalise on the Cauldron - for instance either of the commonly used Corsair Banners (Sea Serpent Standard or Banner of Murder) works excellently with +1Attack, and SSS more so with KB
True. In this thread, I studied only CoB, not banners.
I mentioned the SSS+CoB option for a corsair über-unit in the last "Boot Camp" thread. I believe it would be efficient.



would 12 Executioners + Cauldron (No BSB with ASF, 2x6 formation, or possibly 7 with 5 behind) do better than a unit of 6 COld One knights + Cauldron? Is there a limit of when COKs would work better/worse - eg. against harder targets would COKs prove better or would Exes beat them?
Basically, Execs kill exactly the same targets as charging knights (excluding the CO).
The COB benefits the Execs in the same way as the knights (excluding CO).
The knights have the help of the CO (which are not boosted by the CoB), but they become much less efficient than Execs when not charging.
Overall, the COB is more efficient for Execs.
The target has no influence on the comparison.
In addition, I made my stats for a unit of 5. In your setting, the Execs get +1 rank bonus. This reinforces the efficiency of Execs.
On the other hand, I did not examine the vulnerability to shooting! Just the killing efficiency. For a comprehensive analysis, see the last Boot Camp
Thanks for your imputs.

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Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:32 am
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Fine, makes me rethink the COB in under 2000 pts.

But one thing: Where is it stated, that harpies cannot beneift from the cauldron?
MY AB states friendla unit within 24".

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Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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P.55, harpies' bestiary: they are not affected by the coB.

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Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:42 pm
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HI callisson,

The artickle is nice. is goes very deep. However my personal question to you is.

Do you honestly think the cauldron is worth in points? of course it depends on the armys size. Say 2000 points. As i feel very confident when i field one.,


Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:59 pm
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Arnold Layne
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That's not really what this article is about. This is a discussion of what to do with a Cauldron if you've got one. For two hundred points you could certainly get a good lot of troops, which is always nice. The Cauldron is a bit more user-friendly, a bit less prone to failure, but it doesn't have a back up plan, in the way that having a few more units does. It is worth it, but it's a question of style. I think a Cauldron is worthwhile in pretty much all sizes of game - although under 1000pts it comes to a choice between this and a Sorceress, and the Sorceress is usually a better option.

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Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:54 pm
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Zenith wrote:
Do you honestly think the cauldron is worth in points?
See my conclusions at the end of £6: the COB is a must-have with execs.

If not taking Execs when building your army, however, the COB may not be that much interesting and you could rather consider to take more units instead.


I made the study before I ever fielded a CoB.
Now, I play with a COB and no execs.
I consider that COB + other unit = nice über killing machine, for the pts of an über unit.
I apreciate that I have 3 or 4 potential über units for the price of 1.
This is what COB brings me: adaptability.

For 200 pts, I could have 10 crossbowmen and 5 DR. Worth? Difficult to say. Just game style.

The trick to understand is that the COB is worth little by itself. Its value depends on whether it can be made of good use, on several units.
Taking a COB with a single melee specialist is a bad idea because that single unit will be killed by shooting and your COB will be wasted.
Take a COB with several melee hard hitters, it's an excellent investment as long as one of your units goes in melee actually.

At 1000pts with 3 units of 8 Execs, it is nice.
At 2000pts with a shooty/magic army plus 20 Execs, it is useless.

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Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:20 pm
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Yes indeed, i though of that too, the not-take-only-one-combat unit.

I currently field: 18 strong BG unit - 10 strong EXEC unit - 6 CoK - 1 war hydra.

thats makes a cauldron worthy right. Even a killing blowing hydra could be nice.


Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:32 pm
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Bold as it may be, I would like to make a short remark about the 5+ Ward Save: It does control the opponents movement. Calculating the gains of a charge will be a lot different with the ward in place, in particular on the Hydra.

It is a whole different prospect of charging a hydra with or without the ward save. Thus, you can position it in charge range of an expencive looking enemy hammer and snicker as the opponent dismayingly does the math. The change is from a possible to a probable tarpit, forcing the opponent to react to your plan rather than exectuting his own.

The same goes for blocks of SCR troops albeit to a lesser extent.

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Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:11 pm
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