Tourney report @2250: the corsair's avenge

[Master of arneim]

I had a big tourney this sunday, played @ 2250 pts with etc limitations (italian version, so a little different, but main concepts are similar). I had in mind to play corsairs as a must, so I studied for an entire week the list I'd have brought. Unfortunately the first playtest was today, during the tourney

i'll present here a little report of my matches, while in the end I'll show off all the votes for my units, as usual if you've already read other reports of mine.

First of all my list, with a little comment:

Dreadlord on steed with hydra blade, full mondane armour, potion of strenght and ring of hotek

2x1 lvl1 sorc with 2 scrolls and the seal (yes, I fear magic)

20 spears full command with shields

2x6 harpies

2x12 corsairs with champions. everybody has the repeater handbow and the champion has the pair

2x12 executioners with champ

15 bgs with murder banner and champion

6 coks with champion and warbanner

hydra

2 rbt

As I said, the main idea was to present a list with some corsairs inside, and I think that in this edition if you say corsair you say repeater handbow, so the minigun was a must. I thought how could they be effective and I decided that they could be a good substitute of drs, expecially since in the last tourneys I did I faced few warmachines to destroy, while they could do well for diverting charges. Just because that purpose I found out that it would be better field as many units as possible, just to be able to countercharge most of the times, so I went for 2 of exes, the spears, coks and hydra. Heroes were at minimum and because I usually refuse to field the pendant, I went again for the experienced 4+d3 attacks at S7 wtih my lord. Sorceress were there only to stop those nasty horrors that always harass my units (even considering the new faqs about the ring of Hotek). Spears were there to add some ranks and a godd combat resoultion that always represent a threat to anybody.

Going on with the matches.

First game vs Daemons

big nasty stinky fatty creepy disgusting unclean with regen and "yes, I made a nurgling with my a**", lvl 3

Herald of khorne S6 and As 0+ on juggy

Flying herald of tzeentch with glory banner

2x10 horrors

2x6 furies

10 bloodletters

5 hounds

3 nurglings

3 fiends of slaanesh

6 pyros with champion


deployment
--------furies---------HILLLLLLLLLL----unclean------------------ruins---furies
fiends-wood---pyros-horr-blood-horr-nurglings-hounds--------ruins--------
--------wood----------HILLLLLLLLL----------------------------------------------

As you can see horrors and bloodletters were on hill (the left unit of horrors had the herald inside) while he positioned the khorne heral with the hounds. the furies on the left were behind the wood.

My side

corsairs-----wood-exes-spears-----bgs--harpies-----------------------
--------------wood------crop--harpies-------coks--exes-hil---corsairs
-------------wood-------crop------------rbt---------hydra--rbt--------------

my sorceresses went both into the wood, with the idea to stay there for 6 turns. Dreadlord was with bgs, while only at last I decided to field my corsairs in one straight line of 12 on both sides. Crop means crop fields (difficult ground for models that are not infantries, infantries gain soft cover when inside).

I started first. I managed to reache the pyros with my lord that killed them all in 8-9 turns of combat, in the centre I lost half of the bg in an endless match vs nurglings (all killed) and bloodletters (they remained in 3-4). On the sides I early lost my exes because I didn't excaped the charge of the fiends (they were actually at 16 inches away and I rolled 4 for the run!), but I gained half of them with the impressive corsair unit (mainly from shooting). I lost one rbt, while the other (on the right) was charged by a weakened (again thanks to corsairs) unit of furies that was wiped out from the corsairs themselves. The hydra failed under the stinky, but not before helping the coks to kill the herald and his unit of hounds. The exes on the right after forcing the hounds to do a failed charge, regrouped and went forward to take the upper-right table quarter.
The spears were turning around themselves to face those nasty fiends that bypassed my lines after running down the exes, but never entered the battle but were a good aircfraft carrier for my dreadlord when he jumped against the pyros.

In the end I got 300 points more than my opponent, but it was stilla a deuce.

The second match: again Daemons and again glory banner

bloodthirster, as 3+, S7, rerolls to hit

herald of khorne at S7 on juggy (as0+) and glrry banner

herald of tzeentch with fly (maybe) and know all the lore

Herald of slaanesh on snake with the siren song

2x10 horrors

10 bloodletters

2x5 hounds

6 pyros with champ

2 fiends of slaanesh

(no furies)

What I fear most without the disgusting atomic rending stars is surely the bloodthirster. Now that was a great test to prove my list, even considering that the one I faced was a very good player.

Deployment
fiends-sh-Bt--------------------------------------------------hounds------
-----wooooood-horrors-bloodl-hounds-pyros--horrors-----hillllllllll------
-----wooooood--------------------------house---------------hillllllllll------

He positioned the bloodthirster (Bt) and the slaanesh herald (sh) behind the wood, while the bsb went into the bloodletters in the middle. On the right the hounds were behind the hill.
My side

corsairs--hilllllllllllll-spears-harpies-woood-harpies--exes----------------------
------------exes-----------------wooooood---bgs---croppp-hydra-coks-corsairs
--------------------------------------Dl----------------------rbt----------------rbt

Again I extended my corsair in one long line. The exes on the right were in the crop field, while the harpies in the middle were covering my bg. the dreadlord (Dl) was positioned behind the woods, ready to pursue some interesting targets when they would have decided to uncover.

The match started really badly. Indeed my opponent was kind and all, but a pair of misunderstanding signed my game from the beginning. First there was a discussion about the house (before choosing the side): my opponent assumed that it had only one floor, while I've always played with 2 floors and he even denied to decide at 4+... I let it pass, even if it would have been interesting having the chance to shoot with 10 corsairs from the building, while he only had 6 pyros... The second thing that really surprised me was that in his first turn, when I moved my bg in front of the house (with one floor at this point) and so covering my dreadlord that was behind... he said that the building was high enough to see over the bg, being able to shoot on my dreadlord, while I've always assumed that a one-floor building isn't able to see over "human" models... I let it pass, in the end I was sure with my 1+ armour save... that promptly gained 3 1s on 7 wounds. The dreaddy left the game with his ring, saying goodbye to all his supporters, In his first turn I lost about 370 pts and the only chance to get some wounds in hth with the bloodthirster...
The game was hard, but really tactical and enjoyable.
While the right flank wiped out the hounds, giving a nice bait to the bloodthirster when my coks rushed trought the hounds (and I gladly sacrificed them to pull off the table the Bt that stayed out of the game for quite the entirely match), the left flank collapsed when I was forced to charge the slaanesh herald with my spears, exposing the flank to the bloodletters with the bsb. Then I moved badly, allowing his 2 fiends of slaanesh to pursue a unit of harpies into the wood. After killing one model with magic+shooting, the other managed to escape the wood, charging both rbts in 2 turns. That was caused by a big mistake I did when I positioned my harpies in front of the fiends, trying to force them to overrun into the spears that were still able to move at that time.

In the middle the situation was really interesting but still not painless. I charged the house with the flamers making 5 wounds with the bg but still bouncing. Then I was forced to turn, keeping my flank alongside the wall of the house, staying on one rank with the champion in the first position. That way I managed to survive a charge of the hounds that were in the middle that made only 1 wounds on the champion when charged (you cannot do more wounds if you're engaged only with the champion), but my opponent wisely got a flank charge with the pyros that in the meantime exited the house. At this point I was ready for a couple of countercharge (with both the units of exes, one on the hounds and the other on the flank of the bloodletters that had pursued my poor speamen). Double fear check failed meant the charge of the bloodthirster on the right exes and an endless hth with the hounds that charged my exes with the help of the damned pyros. I then reached that combat with the hydra, but not in time to save the unit.
The corsairs did well. On the right I wiped out an entire unit of horrors only with the rhb, on the left I was a bit unlucky when I failed the only one panic check they get in the whole game, running out of the table.

In the end 16-4 for my opponent, but I really played with some handicaps...

Last game against a fellow druchii!

Dreadlord with pendant on steed, enchanted shield, sword of might, potion of strenght, Ha and Sdc.

1lvl1 with 2 scrolls

cauldron with bsb

2 assassins (one with touch of death, rune, black lotus, the other with rune, manbane)

2x10 xbows with shields and mus

2x6 harpies

5 drs with mus and xbows

2x6 shades with great weapon

5 coks with champion

13 bgs with asf banner

hydra

Deployment

------harpies-cauldron----------------------HILLLL--------
Drs-hydrawood--coks--bg------------------xbows----------
-----woooood--------harpies-----------------HILLL----xbows

He positioned all of his shades in the wood on the left, in front of the hydra, while the sorceress went behind the cauldron. The dreadlord joined the bg. On the right there was a hill where he positioned one unit of xbows.

My side

corsairs--exes-exes-spears-wood---harpies------coks------------corsairs
----------crooop---harpies-wooooood-bg--------------------HILLLLL-----
Rbt------crooop----------woooooood---------------------------------------

The other rbt went into the wood, beside there was the hydra always in the wood. To note that in front of the bgs there was a big rocky formation (just in the middle of the table) that in the end divided in two side the table, being unpassable and covering los. Again the corsairs were on one rank. One sorceress went with the bg, while the other joined the corsairs on the right.

This match was really easy because my opponent was really unlucky and made some serious mistakes. He let me go first and in 2 turns there was only one cok by his side. My right corsairs rushed forward and kept busy bothe the units of xbows for the whole game (with an extra help from chillwind) until came the coks that wiped out everybody.
My hydra litterally burned the bg in 2 turns, because I really gained a good position and stopped his movements with my harpies. His was killed (harpies vs harpies, I charged though) and the other fell when I bounced off the drs that decided to charge into my right corsairs, overruning into them that was behind the hosemen. His hydra was diverted for the whole game, founding its death thanks to the rbt and the last chage of one executioners unit. The spears with the lord stopped a charge of shades bumped by the cauldron, but inctredibly they hadn't the assassin! The other unit was reached by my left corsairs that fluffed all of their attacks in the first turn, did a snake eyes on the break test and, even if loosing and going out of the table, got a pair of wounds (that let me gain a mortal panic check when I shoot with my rbt against them the next turn). My hydra, after burning the bgs, reached the cauldron, killing everybody in one single turn. His dreadlord charged my bg, staying there for the whole game.

In the end of the game my opponent said that he hid one assassin into the bg and the other in the xbows unit that fled off the table.

20-0 for me and a good 34 points in total.

Now to the votes!

Dreadlord "the hydra's son" 7: in the first game he did what he had to. Reach the pyros - kil them all. In the second game... well... in the third he wiped out the shades, but still his Ld is unpredictable in my opinion. The ring didn't do much so I even not know it was there.

Sorceresses "twin stars": 7. With the new faqs and the ring getting nerfed, having 1 more dd really saved my a** expecially in the first game. In the last I played over the only 3 dd of my opponent, and chillwind made some sound.

Spears "Cinderella men": 5+. They really didn't work this time. Sure they are a safe place when you need to launch a dreadlord, absorbing the S&S reaction, but they really were overshadowed by other infantries. Still an importan part of the list in my opinion.

Corsairs "the rabbits in the hat": 8. Oh yessss!!! Mission accomplished! They worked very well, seriously threatening every light unit around and being able to deal some serious damage to those nasty flyers. On the other side they need to be on one rank to maximize their shooting. Having 5-6 model behind the first line is really useless, so that means you need some room to move them. My advice is to keep on flanks and turn them towards the middle, getting a wide los. They killed half of the fiends in the first match, resisting on the charge of those damned daemons, and protected very well a rbt. In the second game one unit cancelled 10 horrors and kept a table quarter, while the other threatened the fiends and one unit of horrors with the herald. Only the panic stopped them. In the third match they bounced off the drs, pursued into the harpies and then reached the shades getting some wounds off. Really nice!

Harpies "fake targets": 8. Having so many units by my side and forcing the enemy to go into the directions you want is simply amazing. The only mistake I did I payed 200 pts.

Executioners "2 is better than one": 7+. As their nick says having two really mix your cards during the game. With only 156 pts you get a unit that can stand some important charges, be a diverter, be a flanker, or just something that can absorb some important damage from enemy fire (6 wounds) before starting to crumble and be ineffective).

Black guards "the wall": 7. Of course without the Hag graef banner they're not so strong, but the fact remains. They've to be destroyed till the last one most of the time if the opponent wants to get rid of them. Advice: fire from pyros really samages their health, even with the S&S reaction.

Coks "Jurassic Park is back": 7. Having so many infantries and the hydra, they risk to pass untouched untli the combat phase. In the first match they send home hounds with the herald of Khorne (with a bit of luck by my side). In the second game they atomize 4 hounds overrunning and attracted the bloodthirster out of the table. In the 3rd they do only 110 pts, but remain all alive.

Hydra "flamethrower": 7,5. Always strong and reliable. Many times it's better to breath than to attack in meelee. This is in most of the case understimated.

Rbts "starlances": 7. This time they work really well, and they uberbolt always scaries daemons. Easy to get for the opponent as usual, but corsairs help to keel them alive.

Thanks for reading.

[Calisson]

Thanks for the report, and GO CORSAIRS!

In your list, a couple of questions, with the appreciation of the battles fought.
Dreadlord: understood.
2x1 lvl1 sorc: didn't you regret not to spend 35pts for a level 2?
20 spears full command with shields: I would have expected the warbanner. Why not? Of course, it did not make a difference at the end.
2x6 harpies: why not 2x5? Was it more effective?
2x12 corsairs with champions & rhb. Wouldn't 2x10 with muso be nearly as effective, cheaper and not as wide?
2x12 executioners with champ: Why champ rather than muso? Did you regret not having a pennant? Was the size appropriate?
15 bgs with murder banner and champion: understood.
6 coks with champion and warbanner: understood. A muso wouldn't hurt, would it?
hydra: clear.
2 rbt: clear.
Overall, you see that I am puzzled with your choice of champions rather than musicians.

It seems that you made good use of each of the units (possibly less for the warriors).

Having faced a CoB, do you think it would have made a great difference if you had taken a CoB instead of warriors?
Noting that corsairs can serve as an "aircraft carrier" for dreadlord as well.

Complimenti. Grazie e in bocca al lupo per le prossime battaglie. (italian edited)

[Benmannen]

Thanks for the report!

Nice to see a bit different list. I've actually not used RBT much at all since the new book came out. I find that 10 Xbowen with shields and a musician do a lot more damage and can fight pretty well for about the same point cost.

I tried Corsiars with handbows and they were a big let down for me. I just could not get their points back, but I think I have to give them another go after reading this

Maybe a unit with the Frenzy banner would help but then you wint be able to shoot as much... Could be fun though. 2 units is probably key too to be able to evaluate them properly.

[Master of arneim]

ok, thanks for the replies.
I've to say that using that list was really fun and my opponents really understimated my corsairs until they realized how many shots they can do.

@ Calisson:

- sorceresses: I preferred not to get the +1 level. Here's the answer: first I din't had the points , second I think that when using magic you go heavy or nothing in a limited contest. I played with limitation of 10 pd per phase, much similar to the etc rules. The second game I faced the daemons that had 6 power dice and I kept them at bay (excluding the last turn where he cast the tzeentch bolt panicking my corsairs!). Then, having 2lvl2 casters means that you have to put them in los from targets and I'm very aggressive with this list (as usual though), so I would easily lose them early. Keeping the mages in a wood for the whole game assures you for the entire match 5 dd and the scrolls, and I think this is very important. Finally, there are no drs nor xbows where I could put them, because the corsairs that could be a good bodyguard, have to push ahead towards the enemy line. I placed a sorceress in a corsairs unit only in the 3rd match, but there I had to face 2 units of xbows. Last point to consider is that at least 1 mage should be mounted on steed (so it is 12 pts more).
Then on average you always face armies with 6-7 dd plus 1-2 scrolls, so the damages you can do are really few. Important is even the presence of the ring...

- spearmen: you're definitely right! If I hadn't the coks I would surely have put the warbanner on them. With coks around I prefer give it to them. That because even if they're reduced to half (in the list 3) they can still be a serious threat with the warbanner. If'd have had 2 warbanner, the second one would have surely been there.

- harpies: I've read another post of yours (I think) where you said that there is no reason to take 6 harpies, 5 or 10 (if I remember correct) are the numbers you preferred. I do not agree. Sure you brought some serious points, but I've learnt that 6 is a great number (even 7). That because I think (if I remember correctly) you did a guess of what happens when 10 crossbows shoot at them, saying that a "normal shooting" would kill 3 of them that is a bit pessimistic. I do not know what do you intend with normal fire, but 10 crossbows/rifles at long range would do about 1,1 wounds, while 10 xbows would do 1,66 wounds. Of course if the enemy fires with a couple of untis the kills would rise to 2 (3 with xbows) but you would still have a nice unit to kill soft targets and to divert charges (it's fundamental for this oprion having at least 3 of them alive). 6 harpies (or 7) are still cheap and can feel a little pain before being useless. With the ld10 from the dreadlord, until they remain within 12", they are quite unbreakable by enemy fire, so the number matters. With 6 if you lose 2 you can still be a threat, even to dwarf warmachines, with 5 not. 7 are even better, but usually 6 is a good number. I always used a couple of 6 harpies and I've to say that they are very effective. I think that also 5 or 7 are good. I'd not encrease their number over 7 because the unit would cost too much and would lose a bit of its manouverability. I'd totally agree with the size of 5 if you bring 3 units, because that way you've to contain the costs and then there is one more unit to rely on. I really do not get the use of 10 or more harpies (ok for panick checks, but they really would cost too much for being at Ld6, without any chance to do some damage to average units and being easy to kill).

- Corsairs: here I'd agree. Surely it's hard to move them, so buying a couple less would help their manouverability. On the other side I put down the list thinking to use them on a 2x6 formation and only when I was at the table I decided to keep them on one rank. I'm still unsure about the size they should have, because 12 mean having the chance to get a rank bonus that could prove worth in some situations (maybe for a flank charge, adding some Cr) with the chance of fielding at least with 7 on the first rank, and getting 2 more helps to keep the unit alive. Relying on 4 more shots is even another nice bonus. I cannot give you a definitve answer though. The musician is a good option, and I'd have given it if I had some spare points.

Executioners: the musician would have been a just add, considering how many times I had to flee. On the other side the champion is surely a must. He can issue challenges just to keep busy an important character while you're tearing apart the rest of the unit. With only one attack each, adding a champion means rising your impact by the 14% (a champion in a unit of bgs rises the impact by the 8%). Having ws 5 proved really good, containing the casualties I suffered. 12 are good. I didn't go for a 7x2 formation (as usual) just to contain the cost and to gain maneuverability, that having so many units proved really worth.

- coks: I really never take a musician for my coks. Not that it should be purchased ever, but the +1 when regruping is not that great having Ld9, not winning the combat because it isn't there is equally not this pain: if I lose I'll test at Ld 8, if the enemy would have lost, getting a -1 to Ld will prove not that great. Usually with coks you shouldn't rely on the mus for winning the combat, so I'm not interested in buying it.

- Overall: I'd always get a champion when possible with my units: having the champion means getting +1 attack (so a possible +1 to Cr without risking the banner), +1 casualty on the other side (expecially with executioners), the chance of launch challenges, protecting your unit. Not that the musician is usually not worth, simply it's not that intriguing, Rallying at Ld8 or higher is a good risk to choose, even considering that stronger and more expencive troops get Ld9. If you lose the combat due to the music absence or get a drow would mean that you rolled very badly (with hatred it becomes even more true) or that you were too much lucky. In my opinion with our army it's always better flee when being charged and forseeing a defeat than staying there to tie up things, relying on the musician to equalize the combat. On the other side the musician becomes important on the 20 spears that count on static resolution to win or draw the hth and it's so cheap that would be blasophemy not taking it.

- Cob: you hit the nail with this question. I assumed to be in trouble with 2 units of exes and the bg without a good cauldron in the back to support the whole army. I must admit that I was wrong.
All begins from the name I gave to this list "returning to origins". That means returning to the good old days where we should rely on our superior tactic skill to beat the other armies, only because we (and a few others) were the very underdogs of the circus. I started to play in the 2002, and it was obvious from the first sight that we had many troubles vs many other armies, just because our troops weren't that great neither at generating static Cr (our troops were very expencive) nor getting good amounts of casualties (low strenght and no hatred meant hard times in hitting and then wounding things, even with our superior ws).

With the coming of the new book it seemed really easy for us being able to charge straight ahead and, with the boost from the cauldron or simply our hatred, remove any obstacle on our way. In fact, having hatred + this bg, rerolling with executioners at S6, new improved coks, asf banner, pendant, hydra etc seems easy control the match. If not it's really fair consider to take the most used list (at list in Italy) when speaking about De in a limited contest (3 assassins with rending stars + manbane, immortal dreadlord, 2 sorcs, hydra, Rbts, 2x6 shades with gw, 2x5 drs, 2x10 xbows, 3x5 harpies) just to be sure of the results. Seems that nobody remember those good old days without these cheesy items, and no one seems rely on the true msu tactic anymore, preferring a simplier list to use. That's not wrong at all let me say, but it was not satisfying for my taste. I found myself, after a while, relying much less on the tactic troughout the game than on the dice (many attacks instead of many diversions, many killing blows instead of many combined charges, many ward saves instead of outmanouvering the enemy, many to hit with my arrows than picking the right target to aim at). Using the new De is not simply and "no brain", but surely having an asf bg is an easy way to make the combat, than leaving at home the banner, having the pendant+regen is easier than going without etc.

I thought that the cauldron should enter in this list as like as there is no beach without the sun, but I found out that having so many units that cannot be snubbed by the opponent is equally a good way to go, even without the boost from the cauldron. Another thing that goes versus the blood pot is the kind of list you usually face at tourneys: every list includes little static cr, many monsters (maybe flying), uber characters and little infantries. Knights are by themselves few. That means not needing many attacks to win those combat, if you charge, and even without the cauldron you can really smash the enemies without so many difficulties. Just think about daemons and every one of their units: troops are composed by 10 models, the hounds if hit on flanks are nothing you can't manage, furies are very limited if you've the bloodthirster (always speaking of a limited contest), while characters are equally hard to kill, with or wothout the cauldron. Different discussion should be done for Vcs, but since the born of the daemons they really disappeared from the tourneys (last year you could see half of the players bringing Vcs, now they are 4-5 on 30 people).

That to answer to your question about cauldron. Surely it would grant a big boost to this list, but I should drop something (probably a couple of units) and this would weaken my tactic. Then I've to admit that I really enjoyed gaming this way, because I really had tough matches vs strong lists and opponents and I was really satisfacted of how much I put in awkward situations my opponents.


About corsairs as "aircraft carrier", the problem is that I used them on flanks and I do not know how well they would behave in the centre and I've to keep my dreadlord in the middle if I want the ring to be effective.

Your italian is awesome Just say "IN bocca AL lupo", the rest is perfect!

Merci pour toutes tes demandes. A bientot!
Hope it's right because I'm really down in french (english and a little spanish for me )


@ benmannen: rbts are there because I'm really in trouble when facing some big monsters, without any assassin nor the uber resisting character.
About rhb, I think that it's difficult seing the sense of taking some "normal" corsairs, relying on their 2 hws. I'm starting to think that corsairs (in an msu style liste) claim handbows. Getting the sss with hb could become a pain when you turn you pirates into the middle to shoot and the enemy bites them, leaving exposed and probably messing up your movement phase. Having a congo line frenzied is not that great in my opinion. But you could give a try an maybe you'll surprise me as they surprised me in that tourney!

Edit: here the results. 19th on 52 people, not bad.

[Calisson]

Master of Arneim, thanks a lot for the very profitable detailed explanations about why you built your army in that way.

- Sorceresses: clear.

- Spearmen: How did I miss that the warbanner was already taken?

- Harpies: the more, the better. The maximum is 10 per unit.
I consider 10 shots => 3 wounds => 2 dead harpies => 1 unit of fleeing harpies (I don't know how you manage to have them sent forward march-blocking foes while staying in 12" range of the general).
I have always been disappointed by their killing efficiency, and my mathammer confirmed that. With S3 no hatred attacks, I find that they are good only to suicide-charge a magician (even inside a unit) or a human warmachine, not even a dwarven one. Having 7 instead of 5 don't increase anything for that role.
They remain unvaluable to march-block the enemy. The best unit for that. 5 are enough.
As shields, they are good, but corsairs are better in my opinion: one unit of 10 should absorb 2 or 3 rounds of shooting before becoming useless.

- Corsairs: with rhb, the melee is desperate. OK, miracles do occur (see Heroic Performances).
+1SCR may seem a better gamble than 5 more attacks, but it means 10 less shots before receiving the charge. I'm undecided, but inclined to believe that it's better to sacrifice the unit in melee but get more chances to kill before it happens.
Also, with the limited range, I've found more often than once that some corsairs in the line are not in range or in LOS to shoot. 2 more corsairs make just things worse.

- Execs: Understood.

- COK: Understood. Tie happens. Ld 9 allows to do without, however.

- Champion or Musician?: See The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – unit’s champions. for their respective cost-effectiveness.
I am utterly convinced that a musician is a must-have in nearly any Ld8 unit.
For the champion, the cost is usually the cost of one additional model, the number of attack is +1 and the number of wounds is unchanged. For that reason, I consider that a champion needs some additional reason than +1 attack to be taken, in order to overcome the lack of wounds.

- CoB: understood. I am sure that your list would be stronger with 1 COB minus the warriors. The tactics will remain what makes the difference between a good general and a bad one.

Per l'italiano, non ho ancora tutto dimenticato, purtroppo mi manca la pratica. Un'altra cosa è di non avere accessibile un buon' dizionario. In fine il mio inglese è molto migliore del mio italiano.

[Dyvim tvar]

For the champion, the cost is usually the cost of one additional model, the number of attack is +1 and the number of wounds is unchanged. For that reason, I consider that a champion needs some additional reason than +1 attack to be taken, in order to overcome the lack of wounds.

I generally agree. But I think that a champion is a worthwhile addition to an Executioner unit for the reason that MoA gives. The champion can issue a challenge to occupy an enemy character, keeping that character from allocating attacks against the Executioner rank and file. This can be very important since the Executioner rank and file models hit so hard -- the more you can keep alive the more wounds you can inflict in return.

[Master of arneim]

I consider 10 shots => 3 wounds => 2 dead harpies => 1 unit of fleeing harpies

Ok for the 10 shots, but remember that (assuming S4) every crossbowmen/thunderer in warhammer (excluding maneater, pyros and no one else I think) has Bs 3, so that means hitting on 6 when in long range (over 15"/12" with Bs 3 you get 4+, -1 because long range and -1 because skirmishers) so again in my opinion your counts are wrong.

(I don't know how you manage to have them sent forward march-blocking foes while staying in 12" range of the general).

I've to admit that I usually do not march block my opponent, or better I do something little different. I'll try to explain myself, and underline that it differs from game to game. First of all I think that marchblocking is useless when the enemy has got more firepower/magic than you and this because he's happy to retard the hth. Usually who shoots doesn't move or really doesn't care if he can or cannot march, because if he's a dwarf he's still able to do it, if he's an imperial he has about 7" to move his templars that are not intended to charge, but only reatrd your movement towards his lines, while there is no other unit that needs to move. The archpriest is a chariot, so it doesn't even march.

In general I play very aggressively, so many times marching ahead at full speed in the first turn, taking the initiative. In the warhammer world these days there are few infantries and many cavalry units. That could become a problem when you've a monoinfantry list as I do, because if you face another infantry 9 times on 10 it cannot move as fast as you or cannot flee (think about vampires and daemons) so it becomes really exposed to countercharges.

First of all I do not care to stop the enemy from marching because usually he has got more shooting/magic than me, so I do not fear the melee. What I do with my harpies is putting them straight in front of enemy units, forcing them to charge not straight ahead, but turning, if they want to move. This has 2 qualities: first, even if I'm really near to these units they (with M7 if cavalry) will not catch my harpies because they've to turn, second they're forced to do a failed charge or not move at all, even adjusting in the direction I prefer. Here's a little example of a standard situation where I start first: I'll assume that the opponent field his "standard"
army (with standard I mean with some infantries, some cavalries, monsters skirmishers etc, but not warmachines that usually go at the edge of the table) at 24" from me (as it happens many times) or 25-26" as you prefer. I'll do the same, fielding my troops exactly at 24" from his deployment zone. In my turn I march full speed with my infantries, trying to position (it also depends on the fielding phase that I'll not analize here) in front of units which they could easily beat or bite, as I prefer, reading the countercharges. My dreadlord is in the middle of the table at this point, having marched for 10", so about 12" from the enemy. Even if he doesn't strike first he has no fear for the charges, because
- nobody fields his big flying monster in the open ground at the beginning
- here they come the harpies
Harpies move in front of the two units I want to divert, disturbing the next enemy movement phase. They are positioned at 8" or 6" in front of the dreadlord, stopping the los of the enemy units. Now I've them within 12", marchblocking units that I didn't want to fully stop and forbidding to the units I've chosen to move. If they want to move they have to charge, if they charge they fail and I countercharge, then my harpies will fly behind the dreadlord travelling about 10". Without many details I can say that, being away 8-6" in front of the dreadlord unit, they should land over the dreadlord unit itself, or better, because I'm diverting the enemies, around there, but surely within 12" form the lord. That means 2 things:
- they return in long range, and are immune to psycho, so not suffering enemy fire and panic checks
- I'm ready to countercharge the second turn with my units and the same charging movement I do shall not make me leave the 12" within the harpies, because the enemy has moved about 5/7 inches ahead with the failed charge, so he's nearer.

If you want you can see this tactic like a De doom siren where the enemy is forced to charge if he wants to move his units.

Sure this is the tactic in general, but you can see how many applications you can have with this use of the harpies. Now that they do not even panic our own units, it's grown stronger.

I have always been disappointed by their killing efficiency, and my mathammer confirmed that. With S3 no hatred attacks, I find that they are good only to suicide-charge a magician (even inside a unit) or a human warmachine, not even a dwarven one. Having 7 instead of 5 don't increase anything for that role.

You're righ indeed, but do not forget that they have to be at least five when catching a warmachine and it's quite unrealistic that they would start in 5 and reach the objective in 5. Even getting 3 harpies vs a warmachine should be good in order to stop it from firing the next phase (you should get at least a draw in the combat, even vs the dwarves). You can easily understand that having more harpies increases that chance.

As shields, they are good, but corsairs are better in my opinion: one unit of 10 should absorb 2 or 3 rounds of shooting before becoming useless.

Sure they are, but only on paper. I'll explain this expression: fielding corsairs as a meatshield has got too many weak points: you can be marchblocked easily, the opponent may position his knights/heavy infantries straight in front of them just to charge the next turn overruning into your infantries in the back, they do not allow your units to move freely and charge when you want because before they must slide to make some room, you cannot cover the coks because that way you would slow them down, and in the beginning you'll have to put your coks at least 3,6"inches back to avoid the damage of a failed stupidity etc.

- Corsairs: with rhb, the melee is desperate. OK, miracles do occur (see Heroic Performances ).
+1SCR may seem a better gamble than 5 more attacks, but it means 10 less shots before receiving the charge. I'm undecided, but inclined to believe that it's better to sacrifice the unit in melee but get more chances to kill before it happens.
Also, with the limited range, I've found more often than once that some corsairs in the line are not in range or in LOS to shoot. 2 more corsairs make just things worse.

You're indeed right here. I'm really spending much time thinking about their performance and their future use. Sure they're better all in line because are more efficient with shooting than in the melee. Good point the range: I've found this problem too when they're so many.

- Champion or Musician?: See The D.R.A.I.C.H. Boot Camp – unit’s champions. for their respective cost-effectiveness.
I am utterly convinced that a musician is a must-have in nearly any Ld8 unit.
For the champion, the cost is usually the cost of one additional model, the number of attack is +1 and the number of wounds is unchanged. For that reason, I consider that a champion needs some additional reason than +1 attack to be taken, in order to overcome the lack of wounds.

I carefully read your analysis and it's really good, but you miss some points in my opinion. The calculations about points/effectiveness are really great and I think that you've spent a lot of time on them.

There are other views and concepts you've to consider:
- champions: sure they're expencive and the rate cost/cr added is not that great, but, as already said by dyvim, in the cost there is the chance of issuing challenges. Then there are even other reasons: when you field an hard hitting unit you will set it in a 7xY formation or 6xY (where Y is the number of ranks), but as you can easily see, you cannot enlarge further the front rank and often even having a 7x2 formation represent a problem in the movement phase. The champion allows you to add another attack while you keep a narrower frontage. Then think about the potential of a champion in an executioners unit with a cauldron within 12"... arrives the bloodthirster, it goes in challenge with the champion dealing 200 wounds... you test on 8 because stubborn and you've lost only one trooper. Think about coks and the chance of getting another S6 hit with Ws5 without extending the frontage and being forced to use 7/8 models. Then the champion is always able to attack: in a 7x2 formation with the champion you get 8 attacks on the first rank, with an 8x2 you still get 7 attacks because the eight model isn't in b2b contact (quite every enemy infantry has got a 5x4 formation).

About musicians I think you're right and I'm considering dropping 4 corsairs and getting the musos for the corsairs themselves and the executioners. While I totally agree when speaking about regrouping I've some reserves about the combat... as already said if you accept a combat you should be quite sure that this is going to be in your favour, so the musician is effective only when you rolled very under average. You cannot rely on a deuce, counting on the musician to win the combat because the spread between a deuce and a loss/win by 1 is too little. So in my opinion the muso could jump in the combat only in extreme situations and so it becomes not that great.

Even more this is true for the coks in my opinion. I think that coks are really tough on the impact, so they should always be able to win combats at least by 3-4 pts (with be able I mean that they need to charge something they know will lose by 3-4). First I assume that they charge, if not they really risk too much and the musician would be useless indeed. Then, knowing that their partial lack of punch in the 2nd turn, you have to be sure to win the combat: being strong on the charge doesn't allow any other chance to do your work if not when charging. For this I think that the musician is uneffective when in hth with these units that really rely on casualties and not static resolution to win. In a practical example, I'd never charge something with my coks if I calculated that "on average" I should win by 1 or for the musician, the risk is too high.

Per l'italiano, non ho ancora tutto dimenticato, purtroppo mi manca la pratica. Un'altra cosa è di non avere accessibile un buon' dizionario. In fine il mio inglese è molto migliore del mio italiano.

Your italian is really good. Did you spend a lot of time in Italy don't you? If you need something about Italian please contact me and I will gladly help you on every question you have.

[Calisson]

I consider that a champion needs some additional reason than +1 attack to be taken, in order to overcome the lack of wounds.

The champion can issue a challenge to occupy an enemy character, keeping that character from allocating attacks against the Executioner rank and file. This can be very important since the Executioner rank and file models hit so hard -- the more you can keep alive the more wounds you can inflict in return.

So THIS is the additional reason to take a champion! I need to update my Boot camp champion thread.

@ Master of Arneim, thank you for the detailed lesson.
D.net is really great in inciting veterans like you to to share unvaluable explanations about how a battle goes, to much less experienced players like me.

Non ti chiami "Maestro" - edit - "Padrone" - per nulla!
Per risponderti, ho seguito un corso d'un anno a Roma nel 2000.

[Master of arneim]

You're really kind and surely patient for reading all what I've written (even I could read it only once looking for grammatical errors and stop!).

Your work about all those druchii tactics is huge and I don't know how could you did it! I'd haven't had the will to do that. Congratulations!.

Per il nome, preferisco "Padrone" e non "Maestro", non sono così arrogante , anche perché qui ce ne sono altri che ne sanno molto più di me. Complimenti per il tuo italiano che dopo 8 anni è incredibile! Sei stato davvero bravo ad impararlo così bene solo in un anno. Come ti ho detto, se ti serve qualsiasi cosa sulla lingua fammi sapere e ti aiuto volentieri. Ancora complimenti!