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Toruney report @ 2250 with ETC rules and a Manticore 
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Hi to everybody. This Sunday I went to a tourney with ETC rules with other 40 people. The competition level was good with many strong players there.

Here is the list I brought:

Dreadlord on Manticore wirh 1+ as, ring of darkness, deathpiercer and couple of hb
2 lvl 1 sorcs with 2 scrolls and the seal
Bsb on foot with soulrender and regenerating armour, sea dragon cloak

20 spears with shields fc
2x10 xbows with shields
2x6 harpies

6 coks with MR1 on the champion and warbanner
14 black guards with hag graef banner and champion

Hydra
2 Rbts

First match I faced chaos warriors with
High sorcerer on dragon with 2+ As, 3+ ward vs shooting and mark of tzeentch, knows one more spell
2 lvl 1 sorcerers of tzeentch with infernal puppet and 2 scrolls
15 barbarians on foot
3x5 riders with axes
2x5 hounds
3 dragonogres with great weapons
2 chariots
5 nurgle knights with magical banner (bound spell dealing d6 S4 shots, power level 4)

First 2 turns where I tried to threatening him with my manticore, while my other units where watching from leaving space for the dragon. The battle turns on my side when he misjudge a charge declared by me with the bgs on his nurgle knights. I won overrunning on the dragon.
20-0 for me.

2nd match vs the one who won the tourney. He had vampires with
Lord with rise night creatures, +1 to cast, knows all the lore, elm of commandment, summon night creatures
Vampire bsb lvl 1 with summon ghouls, great weapon and 2+ as and M9
Vampire lvl1 on steed with goulkin and heavy lance, 2+ as

2x15 ghouls with champion
2x10 ghouls with champion
2x3 fell bats
5 wolves
4 blood knights with std of hatred
5 wraiths without banshee

He’s a good player, but underestimates my list, being used to face the “cheesy” De lists and probably never having seen a manticore in his entire life. He’s happy that I’ve no pendant nor assassins…
He gets the first turn so quickly reaching my lines. I correctly moved my pieces giving him some nice headaches. I lost my manticore trying to kill some wraiths, relying too much on my killing blow chances, while the coks correctly charged a ghoul unit with the bsb, being able to do only 3 wounds in the first turn (the elm where used elsewhere). He wrongly charged my ranked xbows with 8 bats (they grew so quickly!) while I destroyed one ghoul unit with the bgs and a Vampire.inside and the hydra managed to keep out from the game the knights. My rbts didn’t do so much, especially because they where easy point for my opponent if I put them in the open. In the end I lost the general with manticore, coks, all the xbows, one of harpies, 1 rbt while getting 1 new unit of zombies, 1 and half of ghouls, 1 bats unit, the wolves, 1 vampire and 2 table quarters.
8-12 for my opponent with 450 pts more for him.

In the third match I faced my nemesis: dwarf gunline. He had
Anvil with many stuffs
Bsb with 1+ as etc
Master engineer
2x10 thunderers
2x10 crossbows
10 miners
19 hammerers
2 S7 ballista, one fire based
1 catapult with rerolls
1 organ gun and the gyrocopter

The table doesn’t help that much, but I’m very lucky when in the first turn the anvil explodes. I tried then to play the game, putting out something, but I’ve to turn back very soon, leaving on the ground in a couple of turns the hydra, half manticore, half xbows, all the bgs (double 8 on the organ gun with 14 kills), one and half sorceress. I get only the anvil, the most expensive catapult ever (150 pts) with the engineer, half unit of crossbows, the gyrocopter and the miners and a couple of table quarters. Not a great game finished in a deuce with 250 pts more for me.

In the end I classified 14 on 40 people, but only for the spread of Vps, because the 11^ had the same tourney points of me but more Vps.

Here are some votes for my troops:

General “the slim shady”: 7+. He flies around in the first game, worrying the opponent with his movements while my troops can move freely along the table. He does not make many points (250 in the end) but really mix my cards and the opponent is in trouble. In the second game I wrongly charge the wraiths, but it still serves my purposes as he blocks the centre, letting me resist to the other charges and overwhelming the vampire on the flanks. In the third game he kills the catapult with the engineer and gets one table quarter.

Bsb “Rocky the italian stallion”: 8. He punches everyone, killing the knights and the high sorcerer in the first game, erasing 15 ghoul with a vampire in the second (always with the black guard) and in the end destroying the miners with the speramen. The S6 with -4 to as is needed to get some kills and with him the bg start with a Cr of 3-4 (bsb, banner, rank and sometimes Us).

Sorceresses “Cinderellas”: 6,5. They do quite nothing, but the scrolls and the 5 dd are surely needed, expecially vs the vampire. In the last match they even cast some spells but aren’t so effective.

Spears “Starship troopers”: 7. More and more useful with their number and they ranks are excellent to flank the bgs, surviving in every match and costing really few.

Xbows “return to brokeback mountain”: 5. They really should return to their lands. Quite useless in the first game, only able to threaten the dragon from going in the open ground, in the second one unit stops the bats for several turns, while the other is broken by a failed terror test. In the 3rd game they become ridiculous failing many panic checks and not dealing damage to the dwarf gunline.

Harpies “the fifth elements”: 8. As always they provide the mobility useful to break the enemy order and mixing up the cards when needed. In the first game they free the space for the manticore, forcing a chariot to charge and leavin room for the monster. In the second game they kill bats and wolves, being able to divert the blood knights out from the game. Priceless as always.

Black guards “the Manchurian candidates”: 7,5. As always they do what you ask them for. In the first game help the bsb to break the knights for then wiping out the enemy dragon. In the second match they pulverize the ghouls and the vampire while in the 3rd they cannot stand the double organ gun and die in the glory.

Coks “the others”: 5. I’ve to learn to play them. The set up is good but in the first match they are scared by the dragon, in the second fail to accomplish at their mission, not breaking and then being broken from the ghouls and in the third game they can only get a table quarter. What has to be told is that in the second match they stand their ground for many turns before being completely destroyed. The warbanner + fear + 2+ as make them really tough. Something to consider better next time.

Rbts “Total recall”: 5. They really needed to remember what they’re made for. In the first game kill with pain one chariot and deal 1 wound to the dragon. In the second game I keep them in cover, so it’s not their fault. In the third they’re irritating, not killing 10 damned dwarf xbows in the whole game. They are still scary for the opponent even when not working, as the others always imagine the contrary.

Hydra “Predator”: 7. Always strong even if facing people who knows how to take care of it. In the first match it eats the dragonogres and the barbarians on foot, in the second keeps busy 10 ghoul and the blood knights, managing to survive them all and getting a table quarter while in the third match does what it can, but there is no hope.

Thanks for reading.

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Last edited by Master of arneim on Wed May 06, 2009 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon May 04, 2009 3:47 pm
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Manticores can go horribly wrong with their frenzy and no armour save. I don't think the killing blow makes up for their disadvantages and have never considered one myself.

Your sorceresses would have been better as level 2. 280 points in magic defence is silly, when 350 points would have given you some offense as well.

I use my RXB as screens, march blockers, re-directers and for shooting. They aren't usually going to hurt much, unless you are playing a soft T-3 army like hgh elves, but they will get lucky occasionally and are great for clearing away skirmishers and fast cav.

CoKs are too slow and stupid for me. They never do enough damage to break something by ACR, you always need the hydra banner, standard of slaughter or the CoB to raise them out of mediocrity. I have given up and run more infantry instead.

RBTs also have the potential to win the game, but because they roll so few dice, they can be very tempremental. I have stopped running them, but would consider a single RBT if I have the slot. 1 frightens the enemy as much as 2, and its no big loss if it dies.

Thanks for the report, it clarified some things I've been considering.

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Tue May 05, 2009 11:04 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Nice report. What are ETC Rules?

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Tue May 05, 2009 11:27 pm
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ETC Rules

Great report! How do you feel about the cold ones in this setup, cause they usually let me down when I run them anything but naked.


Wed May 06, 2009 7:48 am
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@ Dyvim: Thanatoz showed them in the link. They are the standard rules used in the european turnament contest that falls once per year and where many european countries face each others with teams made of 8 (?) players that have to bring each one a different army.

I'll add here the "italian" version of them, as in my country many thoughts (at least when seeing the first edition of them after the new book came out) that they where too much restricting:

ADJUSTED ETC BY ITALY

- 2250 pts for all the armies
- No special characters allowed
- Dogs of war cannot be hired in other armies
- Max 3 of the same core choice, excluding infantries on ranks without fire weapons or beast herds
- Max 2 of the same special choice
- rare unitts cannot be doubled (excluding HE that can have 2 eagles and 2 rbts)
- Max 10 pd and 10 dd per phase
- Max 3 units with flying ability and causing fear: characters with M10/flying count as 2 units
- Max 3 core units with fire weapon made of 10+ models
- Max 5 warmachines (ratling guns count in this limit, while the anvil doesn't)

Magic:
players can use max 10 pd in their magic phase.
Each bound spell counts as 1 pd, while the second and the followings as 2 pd each one.
Each +1 bonus to cast the spell that is not one shot, given to a lvl3 or more mage counts as 1pd used in each magical phase (in example the will of tzeentch on the big chiken costs 1 pd per phase etc).
Each item, or magical stuff, allowing the mage to know all the lore or choose the spell (not generating randomly) costs as 1 pd in each phase. The necromancer's spells don't count.
All extra pd as like the slaan bonus die or the skaven warpstone count in the total pd usable in the phase.
Tomb kings count each die used fot an enchantment as 1 pd, the soul arc count as 2 pd.

Dispel:
each army can generate max 10 dd.
The first scroll counts as 1 dd used in every turn, while the second or the others count as 2 dd.
Every +1 in attempts to dispel, not one shot, counts as 1 dd in each phase.

Special limitations:
Ring of hotek costs 2 dd in each phase
Max 9 fanatics
Max 1 siren song
Max 3 ghoul units
Max 3 assassins with rending stars or shooting weapons.

@ Thanatoz: I've found that when fielding naked, as you said, it always doesn't satisfy me. When they start to get some casualties they become totally useless. On the other side they still remain a risky option because stupidity, but in the end are the only heavy cavalry we have and most of all cause fear, getting a couple of S4 hits per model each turn after the charge.
Using with the cauldron: I tried this option, but because I tend to get them on flanks, I am usually out of range or have to get the bless on other units (as bgs or executioners, always there with a cauldron). With the warbanner and the champion their cost is not so high (219) allowing me to take other slots to cover them (in this tourney I add Mr 1 only to improve they survivability as there were only 9 pd floating around). Then even reaching the enemy lines in 4 makes them still worth with 5 S6 attacks and a starting cr of +2: the opponent cannot not consider them.
The only two things that they fear are hevay fliers (bloodthirster or dragons) and heavy shooting. To protect them from these threats I usually take them on flanks, covering them with some shooting. The next list I'll bring will see a dreadlord on co with the black amulet in the coks: this should shield them even more from fliers, allowing them to reach enemy lines. I've found then that in this edition the stupidity plays a very minor role, while in the 6th it was very impressive. Now it's a quite balanced risk and having ld 10 it becomes really far.

About the tourney the got into combat only 1 time. In the first match they watched out from the dragon, in the third there was the dwarf gunline, but they easily avoided it going on the right flank. In the second game I was a bit unlucky only getting 3 ghould dead and not wounding the bsb. If I had charged with both them and the manticore I'd had wiped out the unit in 2 turns, killing the bsb and leaving my opponent with only 1 vampire in the 3rd turn.

@ Rabidnid: I hope I've clarified some positive points and not only "here is way you shouldn't take this or that unit" :D

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Wed May 06, 2009 12:35 pm
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I'm guessing I'm suffering from "Rabidnid syndrome" :P , which is that case where you fail your stupidity three battles in a row and you lose the knights as a result. Combined with not being ItP, they tend to panic or fail terror tests, which my regular opponents seem to have access to more than we do.

I really need to get me some blackguards (building a competitive army with etc restrictions without bg, execs or witches: it's doable, but hard).


Wed May 06, 2009 1:27 pm
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I think that you can never fail a terror test with the coks :D

About failing the stupidity check it happens. In this tourney it happened to me only twice and it was irrilevant. A trick to avoid the stupidity check is, besides keeping the lord near, getting fast into combat, especially vs those unbreakable armies and there the warbanner will give you a better edge.

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Last edited by Master of arneim on Wed May 06, 2009 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed May 06, 2009 4:30 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Interesting restruictions. I'm ok with everthing except the "ladder system" which does nto appear to have applied to your tournemy anyway.

As far as your army goes, goven the 10 PD cap, I think I would have only taken 1 scroll-caddy. Otherwise, pretty solid list.

I can see why a gunline would be a problem for you -- you don't have enough fast troops to quickly close the distance and engage the enemy. In my tournament armies, I try to include at least 5 or 6 choices at that can be charging an enemy gunline on turn 2. You have some fast stuff, but not quite enough to get through the rain of fire.

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Wed May 06, 2009 5:42 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
Interesting restruictions. I'm ok with everthing except the "ladder system" which does nto appear to have applied to your tournemy anyway.

As far as your army goes, goven the 10 PD cap, I think I would have only taken 1 scroll-caddy. Otherwise, pretty solid list.

I can see why a gunline would be a problem for you -- you don't have enough fast troops to quickly close the distance and engage the enemy. In my tournament armies, I try to include at least 5 or 6 choices at that can be charging an enemy gunline on turn 2. You have some fast stuff, but not quite enough to get through the rain of fire.


10 PD is annoying, as with PoD you can generate more, and have to watch out. Ladder system is widely accepted here, yet still there are lots of Vampires and Daemons yet few O&G, OK and BoC. Not OK with everything, but it's how it goes. I don't play tournaments yet, but I always keep those restrictions in mind for the future.


Master of Arneim wrote:
I think that you can never fail a terror test with the coks :D

About failing the stupidity check it happens. In this tourney it happened to me only twice and it was irrilevant. A trick to avoid the stupidity check is, beside keeping the lord near, getting fast into combat, especially vs those unbreakable armies and there the warbanner will give you a better edge.


Yeah, it's just a fear check vs terror causers, but you still have to roll twice: once for stupidity, once for fear: too much for me. I'll try experimenting, I have no other choice (limited hammer models).


Wed May 06, 2009 6:16 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
Interesting restruictions. I'm ok with everthing except the "ladder system" which does nto appear to have applied to your tournemy anyway.


There was the ladder system here, I played with 2250 pts while my opponents played with 2250, 2000 (Vc) and 2250.

About mobility you're right, I didn't have the points to include a couple of drs units as the Manticore costs a lot. I think that the dwarven one was the worst list I could encounter, while I kept quite well the vampires. Sure an underdog list, but I like playing them.

About the limits, they work partially, as there are still many daemons and Vcs, but at least there are some different lists out there, so the game results better and more enjoyable.

About coks... I'm still practicing with them (from 6 years now...) but they still remain a hard choice and many times the playtest could go to hell when you fail a stupidity check while having moved them perfectly for the whole game.

About power dice they where 9 max and not 10, and the dice raised with PoD counts in this number. I didn't strusted myself as I had the manticore and the coks that ahould be protectet at maximum to be of some use. Even a simple d6 S4 could deal some serious damage to both the units.

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Wed May 06, 2009 10:56 pm
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