advantages over WoC

Ezr-aeron · Post by **Ezr-aeron** » Sun May 17, 2009 10:19 am

Ok so, i used to play chaos tzeentch some years ago but i ran out of money so had to sell my army. looking now at the new warriors codex they seem so brutal.
apart from RBT and spells that deal damage without armour saves what do we have as cunning druchii to crush these "warriors" (pffft warriors....) of the dark gods. i know that theyre few in number but in combat they excel.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Sun May 17, 2009 10:31 am

They have a couple hard units, but mostly they can be beaten though SCR. Mauraders, dogs and spawn are all easy to kill, which will expose the surviving units to be flanked and destroyed.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Sun May 17, 2009 11:43 am

Cauldron plus Hydra banner on a single unit of knights...
Chariot popping assassins...
An ASF banner...
Heroes that don't need to challenge or accept challenges...
Decent ward saves on our characters...

We have plenty of strengths over Warriors. Having said that, be wary of their strengths; They often hit just as hard on turns 2,3,4 etc of combat, unlike most of our units. Their magic is ferociously powerful vs us... ours is just good vs them. Not much in the DE list can deal with a hellcannon in combat. Their special characters are extremely powerful at their designated role and there are plenty of them. Their fast cav are more versatile than ours and can be extremely hard to deal with. (Slaaneshi ones need to be killed to the last man before they stop doing what fast cav do best, Khorne ones can break ranked units with a frontal charge).

I wouldn't rely on SCR vs chaos. A single chaos chariot can break a unit with full ranks and command. And their magic will easily reduce big units to manageable chunks. Best bet vs them is fast, hard hitters and a fair bit of shooting combined with a decent magic defense; you don't want Chaos to have free run with their magic, ever; you have expensive Elves with tinfoil armour... they will die in droves to even the puniest magic missiles. And chaos have plenty that aren't puny.

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:34 pm

Their fast cav are more versatile than ours and can be extremely hard to deal with.

I disagree, our fast cav is more versatile (versatile meening an entity that is capable of doing multiple things, e.g. shoot, CC, divert etc), unlike chaos, our fast cav can have acceptable shooting (especially in terms of reach).

heir magic is ferociously powerful vs us... ours is just good vs them.

I disagree, our magic is verry good vs WoC.

Personally I would go with either the lore of metal or the lore of shadow; preferably with a high mage using the tome.

Both the pit and lurker are very good vs chaos, and creeping death and steed of shadows can be very usefull (slingshoting assassins at his mages) (the pit is particuallay good vs the hellcanon.)

Druchii77 · Post by **Druchii77** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:53 pm

Generally, WoC are an easy matchup for us. They have next to no reliable ranged attacks while we can shoot them for a turn or two before they get close enough to charge. In combat, as mentioned above, our hatred combined with such things as killing blow, poison, and armor piercing cut through the ranks quite easily. Generally, a WoC army will reach a Druchii severely depleted from shooting and magical casualties only to die fairly rapidly in combat.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Sun May 17, 2009 4:03 pm

My alternate army is Warriors of Chaos so here are my thoughts...

Expect to see lots of units of dogs. A unit of dogs cost 30 points - expect 3.5 units of dogs for every unit of Dark Riders you have on the table. I field 10 units so basically your entire army is down by the time I deploy my first real unit.

Giant of Tzeench > Hydra > Hellcannon

Nobody wants to see a unit of Chaos Knights coming at them. They cost 40 points each and will mess up anything they touch. The good news is they will probably be Frenzied so you can redirect them.

If you see a block of Chosen on the table with a character or 2 in it, it's a bunker you won't break unless you can throw ASF Black Guard unit with an Assassin in there. Or a fully pumped up unit of Cold One Knights. Avoid it.

If you see 2+ Nurgle mages on the table, he's going to try and kill one of your characters per turn with Buboes. It is worth dispelling.

Maurader's are dirt cheap - don't waste your time killing them unless you have to. Focus on the pricey units.

Good luck!

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:29 pm

If you see a block of Chosen on the table with a character or 2 in it, it's a bunker you won't break unless you can throw ASF Black Guard unit with an Assassin in there. Or a fully pumped up unit of Cold One Knights. Avoid it.

Any elite unit should be able to break them with a side charge, if boosted by the cauldron.

A large unit of chosen with one to two characters costs a fortune, so the DE player will definitely have more elite units on the table (i.e. not counting dogs and possible ranked marauders).

If you see 2+ Nurgle mages on the table, he's going to try and kill one of your characters per turn with Buboes. It is worth dispelling.

Harpies is your friend, what he can't see he can't touch

.

Giant of Tzeench > Hydra > Hellcannon

The canon is more of a pain for dark elves IMO; unlike the giant, it is very difficult to kill with shooting.

Trve · Post by **Trve** » Sun May 17, 2009 8:10 pm

phierlihy wrote:Giant of Tzeench > Hydra > Hellcannon

Erm, with all do respect, but no. The MoT is probably the worst mark to give the giant. All it does is give him a six up wardsave.

Really, the Hydra can beat down their big monsters easily. Most chaos players take spawns, few take giants, fewer take the hellcannon, and virtually no one takes a shaggoth. If you face a giant, the MoS is the only mark you need to worry about it having, as ASF giants are pretty scary.

Chaos is my first army and my first love, as well as my primary army. Having said that, the new WoC book is very underpowered compared to the new books that have been coming out lately. Druchii will usually outnumber them, you can outshoot them, you can outcast them, youre faster then them, and most of your characters can outsurvive them. WoC have virtually no ward save items (3 to be exact, and one is the Talisman of Protection). Two of them give only a 6+ save, so even if they have the MoT theyre only going to have a 5+ at best. The other gives a 4+ ward save, but only against non-magical attacks, making it almost worthless. Oh, forgot one. Golden Eye of Tzeentch, but that save only works against ranged attacks.

The only thing Chaos can do better then DE is close combat.

Youre biggest fear will be the default nurgle spell due to Druchii low toughness. It makes it easy to snipe your characters. Spelling that is a must. Other then that, chaos characters must always accept a challange, and they always have to issue a challange (a champ can issue, but characters must accept). Take advantage of that. Challange his sorcerers to kill them, and challange his combat characters to limit the damage they can do to a unit. Sure, they'll butcher the champ, but youre whole unit will be able to strike back.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:04 am

Waerik wrote:
Their fast cav are more versatile than ours and can be extremely hard to deal with.

I disagree, our fast cav is more versatile (versatile meening an entity that is capable of doing multiple things, e.g. shoot, CC, divert etc), unlike chaos, our fast cav can have acceptable shooting (especially in terms of reach).

Heh, in my experience, chaos cav with shooting always beats DE cav with shooting. We fire a few inneffectual shots at range, or up close, then they return fire with s4 and force panic tests. Combined with their s5 flqail attacks and mark of slaanesh making them immune to panic tests (among other things), this makes them a very hard speed bump to remove.

Waerik wrote:
heir magic is ferociously powerful vs us... ours is just good vs them.

I disagree, our magic is verry good vs WoC.

Personally I would go with either the lore of metal or the lore of shadow; preferably with a high mage using the tome.

Both the pit and lurker are very good vs chaos, and creeping death and steed of shadows can be very usefull (slingshoting assassins at his mages) (the pit is particuallay good vs the hellcanon.)

Again, this may just be a blip, but magic heavy (or even moderate for me) has always resulted in a miscast and a free infernal gateway at my most expensive unit due to the mandatory infernal puppet in most chaos armies. Plus, spammed flickering fires at +2 to cast on single dice really are hard to deal with. I imagine spammed buboes at +1 would be much the same. Sure, lore of metal is good vs them, but I mostly play vs magic heavy chaos and it would be relatively easy for them to stop the one spirit of the forge coming their way each turn. Shadow seems too risky to go with on anything less than a lvl4 and pit is almost useless on most of the chaos line due to I4-5 on most things. Even on the hellcannon, the best yiou can get is a partial. (plus, the hellcannon can be neutered by normal crossbowmen anyway) I'd rather put my faith in null talismans for each important unit and a scroll caddy than trying to outgun a magic heavy army with the infernal puppet and gateway spell.

Caboose · Post by **Caboose** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:28 am

Our WoC player generally throws 5 flailed Marauders out for his core units, a unit of 6-7 Knights with MoK, the Shaggoth, an ASF Giant, a demon prince, and two other casters. Two of them are Nurgle generally, and the demon prince is Tzeentch. Oh, and they all can fly apparently. :roll:

I have had a heck of a time beating that list.

He generally likes to set everything up on both edges of the table to boot, leaving the center of the table pretty well empty. He screens his Knights with the Marauders, so you can't exactly re-direct the knights. :\

Anywho, any tips? haha I don't know what all he puts on his characters exactly, but I do know that he doesn't take any Champs in his units. I would appreciate any advice you all could give.

Thanatoz · Post by **Thanatoz** » Mon May 18, 2009 10:13 am

Have been struggling with magic heavy WoC also lately. The amount of magic missiles they can spam with 2 level 1 wizards is just freaky. 2 times flickering fire of tzeentch, one magic missile from any lore, and a bound item with a 2d6 magic missile on top of a banner?

Regardless, without their magic, they are easier to outmanoeuvre.

Kalthorn · Post by **Kalthorn** » Mon May 18, 2009 10:32 am

"Two of them are Nurgle generally, and the demon prince is Tzeentch. Oh, and they all can fly apparently."

:S Huh? I cant understand how the nurgle sorcerers could fly...
If they were slaanesh the 10" movement- 20" charge/march...

Anyone care to explain that?

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:21 pm

He screens his Knights with the Marauders, so you can't exactly re-direct the knights. :\

Charge the knights with harpies, shades or fast cavalry in the side/rear.

Frenzied units must always pursue / overrun.

I have had a heck of a time beating that list. Sad He generally likes to set everything up on both edges of the table to boot, leaving the center of the table pretty well empty.

Then focus your army on one of the sides, if you march block the other half with some harpies / shades / Dark riders; it will take ages for him to get reinforced.

n ASF Giant

Giants die very fast vs. shooting; since they lack a save.

r generally throws 5 flailed Marauders out for his core units

Marauders or marauder horsemen?

While maruaders are cheap, they are only good on the charge, and since we have higher movement then them, we can easily get the charge.

As for the horsemen, as any fast cavalry, they die like flies vs shooting.

Harpies and dark riders can also be used to take them out in CC (once again due to supreme range).

Have been struggling with magic heavy WoC also lately. The amount of magic missiles they can spam with 2 level 1 wizards is just freaky. 2 times flickering fire of tzeentch, one magic missile from any lore, and a bound item with a 2d6 magic missile on top of a banner?

Yes, with a few mages, they can deal a lot of ranged damage; however, they don't have mundane shooting, so it's really not worse then what you would face from any other army.

All those things cost more than four RBT's you know

.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:45 pm

Oops, my bad. I did mean the ASF giant.

Trve · Post by **Trve** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:50 am

Kalthorn wrote::S Huh? I cant understand how the nurgle sorcerers could fly...
If they were slaanesh the 10" movement- 20" charge/march...

Anyone care to explain that?

There is nothing a nurgle sorcerer an run that would allow him a 20" move.

Trve · Post by **Trve** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:52 am

sulla wrote:
Waerik wrote:
Their fast cav are more versatile than ours and can be extremely hard to deal with.

I disagree, our fast cav is more versatile (versatile meening an entity that is capable of doing multiple things, e.g. shoot, CC, divert etc), unlike chaos, our fast cav can have acceptable shooting (especially in terms of reach).

Heh, in my experience, chaos cav with shooting always beats DE cav with shooting. We fire a few inneffectual shots at range, or up close, then they return fire with s4 and force panic tests. Combined with their s5 flqail attacks and mark of slaanesh making them immune to panic tests (among other things), this makes them a very hard speed bump to remove.

Waerik wrote:
heir magic is ferociously powerful vs us... ours is just good vs them.

I disagree, our magic is verry good vs WoC.

Personally I would go with either the lore of metal or the lore of shadow; preferably with a high mage using the tome.

Both the pit and lurker are very good vs chaos, and creeping death and steed of shadows can be very usefull (slingshoting assassins at his mages) (the pit is particuallay good vs the hellcanon.)

Again, this may just be a blip, but magic heavy (or even moderate for me) has always resulted in a miscast and a free infernal gateway at my most expensive unit due to the mandatory infernal puppet in most chaos armies. Plus, spammed flickering fires at +2 to cast on single dice really are hard to deal with. I imagine spammed buboes at +1 would be much the same. Sure, lore of metal is good vs them, but I mostly play vs magic heavy chaos and it would be relatively easy for them to stop the one spirit of the forge coming their way each turn. Shadow seems too risky to go with on anything less than a lvl4 and pit is almost useless on most of the chaos line due to I4-5 on most things. Even on the hellcannon, the best yiou can get is a partial. (plus, the hellcannon can be neutered by normal crossbowmen anyway) I'd rather put my faith in null talismans for each important unit and a scroll caddy than trying to outgun a magic heavy army with the infernal puppet and gateway spell.

The general consensus among chaos players Ive met and the ones I deal with on Chamber of the Everchosen is that the Infernal Puppet is cute but not worth it.

Ive never seen an infernal puppet list in person.

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Tue May 19, 2009 9:22 am

Trve wrote:
The general consensus among chaos players Ive met and the ones I deal with on Chamber of the Everchosen is that the Infernal Puppet is cute but not worth it.

Ive never seen an infernal puppet list in person.

I've seen one, but its mostly to save his own mages from miscasts.

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:16 am

Heh, in my experience, chaos cav with shooting always beats DE cav with shooting. We fire a few inneffectual shots at range, or up close, then they return fire with s4 and force panic tests. Combined with their s5 flqail attacks and mark of slaanesh making them immune to panic tests (among other things), this makes them a very hard speed bump to remove.

Actually, our shooting is precisely as powerful, if firing at each other, they will inflict 1.39 wounds each.

We do however have the advantage of shooting at a longer range.

Furthermore, the extra strength of the riders gives them a small edge vs. heavy armored foes (they inflict 0.1 more wounds against WS4 T3 2+ save cav); we do however inflict a whooping .4 wounds more against those with a 5+ save

.

Thus: we have advantages in terms of range and shooting, the marauders have an advantage in terms of psychology.

Again, this may just be a blip, but magic heavy (or even moderate for me) has always resulted in a miscast and a free infernal gateway at my most expensive unit due to the mandatory infernal puppet in most chaos armies. Plus, spammed flickering fires at +2 to cast on single dice really are hard to deal with. I imagine spammed buboes at +1 would be much the same. Sure, lore of metal is good vs. them, but I mostly play vs. magic heavy chaos and it would be relatively easy for them to stop the one spirit of the forge coming their way each turn. Shadow seems too risky to go with on anything less than a lvl4 and pit is almost useless on most of the chaos line due to I4-5 on most things. Even on the hell cannon, the best yiou can get is a partial. (plus, the hellcannon can be neutered by normal crossbowmen anyway) I'd rather put my faith in null talismans for each important unit and a scroll caddy than trying to outgun a magic heavy army with the infernal puppet and gateway spell.

I suppose that your fear of the infernal puppet stems from the difference in our view of magic; IIRC, you take far more magic heavy armies than me, and thus are more likely to miscast.

For me, a magic heavy army contains six levels of magic, a medium army contains four.

Regardless, I only take magic as a support element, i.e. it can very well be to kill things (like the helcanon, or steam tanks) but it will be in order to fulfill a task that I find lacking in my army.

That being said, the beauty of magic is that you can tailor your lore choice to any given opponent.

As for metal, spirit of the forge is the third best spell, the best ones would be rule of burning iron (the snipe) and transmutation of lead (combat debuff).

In general, the big bogy spells draw out the scrolls (spirit, pit) and the support spells (transmutation, lurker) wins you the game.

As for the lore of shadows, I disagree with you about the level four, you only want a level four with shadow, if he fields one or two hell canons.

The level two is however a good choice regardless, since the default spell in conjunction with 1-2 assassins is an excellent way of dealing with, and putting pressure on his mages.

Ezr-aeron · Post by **Ezr-aeron** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:21 pm

what do u mean by infernal puppet?

Waerik · Post by **Waerik** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:27 pm

Infernal Puppet is a magic item for WoC; IIRC it allows the player to adjust miscasts (friend and foe) by D3.

Post by **Dyvim tvar** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:21 pm

Trve wrote:The general consensus among chaos players Ive met and the ones I deal with on Chamber of the Everchosen is that the Infernal Puppet is cute but not worth it.

Ive never seen an infernal puppet list in person.

I think you are right that the idea of a list with strategy built around the Infernal Puppet looks interesting on paper, but may not work in the real world. If you expect to adjust the other player's miscasts to cast your own spells, you are out of luck against lists that don't use a lot of magic, that cast their spells on single dice, or that have the ability to ignore the effect of a miscast.

That being said, I think it's a great insurance policy for any army that includes a Level 4 Chaos Sorcerer in that it: (a) can prevent a miscast from killing a very expensive character; and probably more important (b) can keep your magic phase going if the result of an early miscast would be to end the magic phase.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:32 pm

I've seen an infernal puppet list in person... it killed my level 4 sorc on turn 1. Go me!

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Wed May 20, 2009 2:11 am

Infernal Puppet is standard equipment in my list. It's just too useful not to take. And I get to make Infernal Sock-Puppet sounds =) In larger games I take the Black Tongue to force the miscast and then use the puppet to modify it. Taking the puppet is by no means a no-brainer choice so not everyone will bring it. But it's fair to say to expect it.

Camaris · Post by **Camaris** » Wed May 20, 2009 4:51 pm

Dyvim Tvar wrote:That being said, I think it's a great insurance policy for any army that includes a Level 4 Chaos Sorcerer in that it: (a) can prevent a miscast from killing a very expensive character; and probably more important (b) can keep your magic phase going if the result of an early miscast would be to end the magic phase.

To add to that, the few chaos players that I know, feel that the most tourney-competitive WOC list is a Tzeench heavy flying circus type list due to its versitality, so I think it is something that you can suspect in a lot of WOC lists.

To answer, the poster's question, our advantage over WOC is movement, so just run circles around them until you have them where you want them, and then hit them really hard in the flanks with your armor popping units.