The big 3: If DoC and VC are broken, how broken are DE?

Post by **Calisson** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:22 pm

The topic regularly pops up and triggers flamed discussions.
This poll is mainly to count which opinions are the most widespread among D.netters.

The poll is about DE, not about VC compared to DoC.
If you don’t know DoC and VC, suppose they are both broken according to the definition provided.

Feel free to express you arguments, but please respect other’s opinions.

EDIT: edited on Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:10 am
the following threads may help you to make an opinion.
are druchii broken?
GT Results - Dark Elves Share Top 10 with daemons.
Is Warhammer Balanced? Study says no
Improved Druchii and calls of overpowered
Dark Elves broken... I don't think so! (a ranking of different WHB armies)
Hatred is here to stay- An overview of 7th edition DE
"Army-Wide" special rules
DE vs HE Skill Comparison?
Elf Players

Post by **Kinslayer** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:30 pm

All 3 are broken, and DoC and VC are broken compared to DE.

That said, hear me out.

I wouldn't say they were broken as such, but it was still the most fitting poll option for my opinion. I would say there are three tiers of army book,

tier 1 - those broken and/or too powerful
tier 2 - those that are balanced. All books belong here.
tier 3 - those that are lacking and need updating

At the moment I see tier 1 as containing VC, DoC and DE.
VC and DoC are broken.
DE are not broken, just overpowered, but still in my tier 1.

Armies like Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs make up tier 2.

Armies like Tomb Kings and Ogres make up my tier 3.

Also, looked over the new Skaven, I would say they are now at the Top of tier 2. A good place for a new army to arrive, since up until now they've all been coming in smack bang in the top of Tier 1 as a little power trip hit GW. That however, is a different subject.

Mr_piechee · Post by **Mr_piechee** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:36 pm

from my limited experience I would say only DoC are broken, and VC and DE just have power lists available to them, which could be solved with game wide fixes.

max 10 power dice, no more than 2 characters including champs in the the front rank. Fixes most problems, leaving only a few power builds. For the most part (again from limited experience) druchii are said to be broken because people don't like fighting monsters. empire have steam tanks, druchii have hydra. simple as. VC, is a simple case of vamp killing, and so they need to be difficult so that you don't have an easy job.

Having said all this, GT leader boards suggest that Doc and DE are a little too powerful, but this doesn't mean broken.

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:40 pm

nevermind.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:43 pm

Assassins are too powerful, should be character choices for how powerful they currently are. Rune of Khaine is way too good for its low cost.

Pendant of Kaeleth should have "no other magic items may be taken" or something to make less of an impact on how unkillable the character becomes

Ring of Hotek needs to only make the spell fail, not a miscast

War Hydra needs to lose Hatred or something AND an increase in points

That's pretty much it

Slortor · Post by **Slortor** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:44 pm

I'm hovering between saying that all three are broken and DoC/VC are broken whilst DE need skill to use.

As I see it - DoC are cookie cutter, needing very little skill to do well. VC need some skill but I think the skill with VC is as much in army creation as army play. If you make a strong VC army which plays to any/all of their strengths then the army plays quite easily after that.

DE are similar to vamps in that one of the hardest things is in creating a good army out of the huge variety available. What changes with DE is that some (most) of the best armies are more fragile/risky/otherwise harder to use than VC. BG deathstar + shooting isnt hard to use, but a guerilla army is a lot tougher.

So on that logic I voted for DoC/VC broken, DE powerful but need experience. If there was an option which said 'All are broken but DE need more skill than Vamps and Vamps more skill than DoC' then I would have voted for that.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:45 pm

People need to stop complaining and play more to learn how to beat the "top 3"

That's my opinion.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:18 pm

I think most armies can be stacked to be broken.

Although we are good, Dark Elves do have specific and exploitable weaknesses though (toughness 3 and poor armour saves anyone?).

Eternal hatred is awesome, but so is HE ASF. Cauldron ward saves are nice, but so are HE PG 4+ ward saves. There are so many unbalanced units in so many different armies at this point.

But then I like a bit of imbalance

shakes things up a bit. Otherwise its a case of bishop 3 to rook 4...

Rabidnid · Post by **Rabidnid** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:07 am

I still disagree with the term broken. Most lists have particularly nasty combinations that - due to GW's terrible rules writing and playtesting - makes it into the army book.

DoC are the standout book for very difficult to deal with armies. I have never had a problem beating VC, because none of my VC opponents are very bright, but I can see that the list has potential to be difficult.

DE has the PoK which is simply too good for words, the hydra is a bit underpointed, and hatred is wonderful given that all of our units went down in price from the last book.

S-7 assassin, who cares, fast, high leadership, flexible troop choices and core flyers. All signature DE stuff but not overpowering. Few of our units cause fear and few are ItP, so there is really no comarison to DoC

If you have half a brain you can exploit the strengths of the DE and minimise their weaknesses, but the same is true of HE and WE.

War Hydra needs to lose Hatred or something AND an increase in points

If the hydra was 220 points again and didn't move as a skirmisher, and the PoK was arcane or sorceress only, I would not consider DE worse than HE.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:41 am

Hatred is too powerful, especially on Characters, mounts and big monsters (:

Almost 100% accuracy is annoyingly powerful.

Falahk · Post by **Falahk** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:46 am

all 3 are definatly better then the other army books(and have a lot more choses on how to build good lists), however VC suffers from having the other two top armies as bad match ups (i supose this can be highlighted by the fact that all top 10 armies in the most recent UK GT heat all was DoC and dark elves).

edit: supose i can post the mentioned top placings from the UK GT heat 1:

1 DoC
2 DE
3 DE
4 DoC
5 DE
6 DoC
7 DoC
8 DoC
9 DE
10 DE

No one · Post by **No one** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:23 am

SilverHeimdall wrote:Almost 100% accuracy is annoyingly powerful.

a shame it went from 25% to 50% around here

I think DoC are broken, I don't really have an opinion on VC as the only guy who plays them really sucks so i never really see how they can be broken and then there is DE:
DE are very powerfull but IMHO broken is a word best reserved for DoC only, though I agree DE are overpowerd they aren't as powerfull as DoC and when a few choices are left out the list becomes normal (on par with the tier 2 though still quite powerfull).

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:10 am

SilverHeimdall wrote:Hatred is too powerful, especially on Characters, mounts and big monsters (:

Almost 100% accuracy is annoyingly powerful.

This will probably be one of the first changes in 8th, you can bet your hamster on it.

Red... · Post by **Red...** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:17 am

Why? do I hate my hamster?

Sorry.

Yes, it would be interesting to see how best to revise hatred. Maybe something like "+1 to your attack when attacking with hatred" rather than reroll all misses. But then other combat bonuses given to other races would need to be fixed too...

It would be nice to move away from blanket "eternal hatred and hate everyone"s as well. It takes the fun out of the idea behind hatred - that you are fighting particularly hard because you are fighting one of your race's arch nemesises. I doubt, somehow, that Dark Elves have had enough contact with tomb kings, for example, to really care enough about them to hate them... It would also remove the sillyness of when we're fighting HE: "I don't just hate you, I really really really hate you". :roll:

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:25 am

Let's hope so, Igor. I'm hopeing this extend to all psychology as it makes no sense at all a beast would suddenly fall into a state of frenzy or suddenly change their emotional state to downright hating someone.

Falahk raised very important points here. DE and DoC are horrible match-ups for VC. Lizzies arent exactly a good match-up either. VC are in the worst place of the so-called big 3. Against the rest of the opposition, the internal struggle of the top tier armies falls into the shadows and its an uphill battle for everyone but the top armies.

Although we are good, Dark Elves do have specific and exploitable weaknesses though (toughness 3 and poor armour saves anyone?).

This isnt a DE specific weakness, it's actually pretty much the average. It was in the 6th edition but ONLY because you lacked special rules/high point cost VS unit/item effiecency. These weaknesses that keep being repeated as some huge handicap simple arent there anymore.

Zardock · Post by **Zardock** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:46 am

Dalamar wrote:People need to stop complaining and play more to learn how to beat the "top 3"

That's my opinion.

I'd have to agree with Dalamar on this one, though I don't actually attend tournaments so have yet to face any real 'power gaming' lists as of yet.

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:36 am

Cant we complain and try to beat the top 3?

Zardock · Post by **Zardock** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:44 am

You can't have your cake and eat it (a phrase I've never understood but hey... it applies here).

Post by **Calisson** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:55 am

Other nice sentences:

Better inspire jalousy than commiseration.
(in support of danceman's and Rork's usual assessments).

Where there's a will, there's a way (Stalin).
(in reply to danceman's post just above).

Comrade igor · Post by **Comrade igor** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:17 pm

Calisson wrote:Where there's a will, there's a way (Stalin).
(in reply to danceman's post just above).

See my sig below.

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:33 pm

Zardock; I wouldnt say so because I can do my best and try to beat the so-called broken lists while at the same time express my concern over the particular lists in question. I wouldnt do so in a game because that would just be plain rude. Though I would also so say it is just as valid to express concern about DE as it was when DoC and VC was released, and other armies before them. My problem isnt with DE being powerful but rather with the players who pretend they're still stuck in the 6th edition and hold on to the old weaknesses like gospel. I dont think warhammer ever will balanced, nor do I think DE is automatic cheese but the special treatment some players grant themselves is annoying at best.

And as for adding another nice sentence;

Ignorance is bliss.

Brad · Post by **Brad** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:08 pm

SilverHeimdall wrote:Hatred is too powerful, especially on Characters, mounts and big monsters (:

Try to imagine what it would be like if it still had the break-tests-on-unmodified-10 of several editions ago. :shock:

Zardock · Post by **Zardock** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:48 am

I never denied the Druchii being powerful, I actually think that though they do not have as many obvious power builds, the list is very powerful, even balanced or themed lists are a tough cookie, because the Druchii are a jack of all trades and master of most aswell.

You could say we are having and eating our cake.

Unfortunately I have this army, and so I'll play it no matter what, I also appreciate the army I play getting buffed so thanks GW!

Tiechonortheal · Post by **Tiechonortheal** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:33 am

I think that the true Ward Save army wide for Daemons was a little much. I think that, as a base, giving the army back the old Daemonic Aura Save, but having a rule to where all daemonic units within 12" of the general upped that to a true Ward would have been a tad less silly.

Also, I really don't like how they effectively force Daemon players to take a Greater Daemon in their list. True, you can go all Heralds if you like, but if you want a decent LD on your general, he's gotta be a sillified Large Target.

I think the way they did Daemonic Gifts in the army was silly. They don't count as magic items, so you can have multiples of them, and other things in other armies that mess with magic items have no effect on them. Do they really need that? Do they?

Also, I don't think that Daemons should be able to benefit from Insane Courage. It doesn't happen often, but seeing a Daemon player roll snakes because of a BSB nearby one of those few times someone actually manages to beat a Daemon unit by a significant margin is just heart-breaking.

As far as VC go, well, they're my main army, and I honestly don't see what people are complaining about. Now, I'm not saying that I don't win with my army, and that it's not powerful. There are several powerful combinations that 'I' have seen and fielded, but they are almost without exception not what I see being whined about online.

What I see people complaining about online are the Magic Monolith armies and the Drakenhoff Deathstars.

As far as the magic armies go, I can see how they would be annoying. However, I cant for the life of me see how people lose loads of games to them. Draws? Sure. Those armies are wonderful at making you chew through walls of meat. But I can't actually see how you pro-actively BEAT people by hanging your VC casters back and flinging endless zombies at things. Sure, Curse of Years is nice, but it can't kill armies.

Drakenhoff Deathstars? Sure, they're nasty in that they are hard to kill because the entire thing re-gens. Outside of that? They're not much nastier than any other unit that has 4 characters in the front rank. Get something with flaming attacks and/or Killing Blow into the front of that unit and kill that freaking BSB. I fought against a Drakenhoff Deathstar in the Prelims of the 'Ard Boyz, and I smashed it in a couple of turns just by simply taking it head on with a Black Coach with Killing Blow and having my General turn on her Flaming Sword of Rhuin.

The bottom line with VC is that if you try and fight the army, you are playing right into the VC player's hands. A game against VC is an exercise in character hunting. Trust me, I'm a VC player, I know. Kill the characters and the army folds.

And as far as DE go? I think that we have a GOOD book, not really a broken one. We can play pretty much any type of game we want to (Magic, Shooty, Combat, MSU, Monsters, Battle Line, Cav Line, Point Denial, Beat Stick, etc) and play all of them exceedingly well. You can't look at our book and automatically see blue prints of the 3 hyper-power lists that we can run. We can put together a list any number of ways, and most of them will at least be able to roll with the other competitive armies out there.

Daemons? We've got shooting, mobility, and disruption, things that really go for miles against them, and we've got the Ring of Hotek and Null Shards to keep the bulk of their magical silliness at bay while doing it.

VC? Hatred means that, at least on the round we commit, our damage output is exceedingly high. We've got the ability to shunt Killing Blow pretty much anywhere we need it. We have actual ASSASSINS that the enemy can't 100 percent for sure know the locations of. We've got characters riding on flying monsters, some of the monsters THEMSELVES actually having Killing Blow. DE can kill characters VERY well, and that is the name of the game against VC.

On the flip side, while we are very good at picking our fights and smashing things apart offensively, if someone actually manages to out-maneuver us and get some charges off (easier than you'd think, given our requirement to chase things that we've made run from combat) we've got a pretty mean case of glass jaw. T.3 and not much armor to speak of across the board. Pin us in place and start wailing on us, we fall apart like anyone else. Outside of our unkillable Lord combination, we don't have very much ability to add resilience to our armies in the army building phase of the game. We've got an ASF Banner, which can go on one unit without the aid of a BSB, a unit that doesn't actually need it's help to stay in the fight in a bad position, given Stubborn LD. That's about it.

DE are a powerful army that reward aggressiveness and tactics, so much so that it can easily thrash any army out there. What it does not have, however, is the easy button, those 'play themselves' combinations that only require average dice rolls to foil opponents plans.

Danceman · Post by **Danceman** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:08 pm

So the fact you can do whatever you want, do it exceedingly well, pull off a good number of tricks, are very good at smashing things in combat(as well in magic and shooting), have alot of tactics open for you. All this only makes you powerful, but not broken? You're simply not making sense here, good sir.

I find you last statement abit dual edged in reflection of the rest of your post. DE got stats and thus allow some bad rolls, especially when it comes to combat due to hatred. Also the glass jaw and T3 works on paper but the special rules and options open to you more than compensates for this(magic items, armour, monsters and special rules)

DE, VC and DoC are winning big for a reason. The recent decline of VCs presence in the tournament is probably a product of the WoC and Lizardmen(the lizzies especially) since both these armies have good tools to deny the VC players from grabbing enough points for a top placement, where as DE/DoC are more flexible in nature and adapt to the given situation better. This could be wrong but I find there are too many people who make the same observation/experience similiar results for this to be a mere coincidence.

The big 3: If DoC and VC are broken, how broken are DE?

Definition of a broken AB: a normal player with rather modest experience, using a broken Army Book, will routinely beat a much more experienced player using a non-broken army book.

The big 3: If DoC and VC are broken, how broken are DE?