Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:08 am



Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
D.R.A.I.C.H- Banishing the Daemons 
Author Message
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:31 am
Posts: 838
Location: New Zealand
Anti-Daemon Tactica

Daemons are the most fearsome army on the warhammer battlefield. Any game against them will feel like an uphill battle. We can complain about their “brokenness” all we want but that will not change their terrible power. Instead hold your head up high and meet the challenge. You will most likely get this your ass handed to you several times before you get a victory. But we Druchii have been getting sloppy which our almighty new army book and we could use a challenge. We will come out better generals for it. Hopefully this guide will help people to come to grips with this deadly foe and send them back to the warp where they belong.


Strengths of the Daemon

-fast and maneuverable
-every unit has a wardsave
-all attacks count as magic
-immune to psychology
-every unit causes fear
-a selection of ultra deadly units
-excellent magic defence and offence


Weaknesses of the Daemon

-few in number
-cannot flee charges
-no armour saves(with a few notable exceptions)


Specific Threats and how to cope with them

I will organize this section by recording the units by the god they worship. Keep in mind that this has no effect on the list and any combination of units may be taken. However, the heralds have various abilities that can only be conferred to units that follow the same god as them.


Khornate Units

Bloodthirster. The blood thirsters is a huge, flying, terror causing, ass kicking, hard as nails Daemon. It can be improved with various daemonic gifts. It may have a massive armour save, killing blow, be immune to magic weapons, have s10, have magic resistance 3, constant re-rolls to hit, have s7 flamming attacks or any combination thereof. If you know you are facing a Bloodthirster then you want to have bolt throwers. 4 will guarantee the daemons death in one or 2 turns shooting but 2 will hopefully damage it enough so that you have a chance to finish it in close combat. Also don’t discount shooting it with repeater crossbows they can do the last few vital wounds. Another way to beat it is to hold them up through unkillable character in a challenge and crumble them with combat resolution. This is not reliable however as the bloodthirster is fast and can pick its fights. A assassin with rending stars and manbane is also an effiecient way to knock wounds off this daemon. If the Bloodthirster has obsidian armour which negates magic weapons you can bypass this with the potion of strenght and a lance or greatweapon to ensure you wound on 2+ and crunch his armour save. However this tactic works for only a single combat phase

Fleshhounds. Fleshounds are lethal they are toughness 4 with 2 wounds and have 2 s5 attacks each plus the arbitrary wardsave. How to kill them? Well first shooting and magic aren’t effective. Magic because they have MR3, shooting because they come in really quickly and you will only have one or two turns shooting and they are very resilient and will usually be in multiple units. The best way to kill them is to meet their charge head on with something that can kill them in CC. For this you want something that has ASF, is preferably immune to fear and has either lots of attacks or killing blow. ASF blackguard are as usual the prime candidate, although ASF executioners or any unit will an assassin can work just as well. In the case of the units you probably want a cauldron nearby to provide them with killing blow. The assassin who want to go hound hunting should have extra hand weapon, rune of khaine, touch of death(or be given KB by cauldron) and black lotus for the rerolling 1s to wound.

Khornate herald. This thing can get -1 armour save if it is mounted on a juggernaut. In addition it will have either s7 flamming attacks or killing blow. It has hatred and will confer this to any khorne unit it joins. It is a big threat to our characters, units and the hydra. But it is still vulnerable to ASF killing blow and being held up by our tanking characters with pendant of khaeleth. The first spell of the lore of metal can be used to snipe them but remember it is wasted against the rest of the Daemon army(unless there is a bloodthirster that also has a good armour save).

Bloodletters. Bloodletters are the khornate rank and file. They are one of the less effective daemon units so if you see them then you are facing a daemon player who either wants to tone down or theme his army. They have MR1 and a single s5 killing blow attack. They are toughness 3 and therefore vulnerable to shooting. On the charge they can be pretty dangerous especially if they have a khorne herald giving them hatred but in general most dark elf units should see them off as we have higher initiative and more attacks. Just don’t get charged.

Bloodcrushers. These are bloodletters riding juggernaunts. Each has 4 attacks at s5 and 6 with killing blow. Defensively they have t4, 2 wounds, a 4+ armour save and 5+ ward and MR1. AS they cost 70pts each they will not come in large units and will not prove as much of a threat as fleshhounds. They are vulnerable to ASF killing blow attacks in the same way as the blood puppies so deal with them accordingly.


Tzeentch Units

Lord of Change. This big magic birdie is an effective caster but it is weak in combat compared to the other greater daemons (that being said it still has a similar attacking profile to a dragon).Like its ilk it is vulnerable to our bolt throwers and shooting. If you happen to have a dragon lord this is the only greater daemon that he has a good chance of challenging and beating.

Tzeentch heralds. They will usually be mounted on flaming discs or flying chariots. They are lvl 2 wizards and have many abilities that increase their magic ability. If they are on chariots they are a flanking threat. As they are so mobile they are difficult to target but if you get the opportunity to smack one take it. If you want to hunt them down, You can use your own characters mounted on flying steeds. If they Sorceresses and masters with the lifetaker are best for this role as you will seldom get to attack in CC. If you are trying to hunt them you had better be confident in your magic defence. If they are in a unit they give it a 4+ wardsave but this also makes them much easier to huntdown and kill. Harpies are manouverable enough to be effective herald hunters. Just make sure the general is nearby to give them good enough ld to pass their fear test and charge.

Screamers. Screamers are a weird flying unit that cause 1 s5 hit per screamer to each unit it flies over. They can hit multiple units per turn but not the same unit multiple times. They are a big threat to lone mages so keep them in units if you know screamers are present. They can also march block if they are in larger units(which is rare) They are only t3 with one wound so they die if you target them with pretty much any shooting or magic.

Horrors. Horrors are the tzeentch rank and file. The whole unit is a wizard which becomes more powerful (generates more dispel and power dice and has access to stronger spells) the more models it has. Horrors are the reason daemons can get so much more magic than other armies and should be a high priority target. Luckily horrors are pretty rubbish with their goblin-like stats. When you see horror units on the table you should try to reduce their numbers and weaken them by A) shooting them B) assaulting them with quick units. I think if you reduce them to 6 men or less they no longer count as a mage. If you are a magic heavy army you will find yourself in control of the magic phase quickly if you manage to take out the horrors.

Flamers. Flamers are the finest skirmishing unit in the game without a doubt. Why? They cause fear, they have a ward save, they are toughness four with two wounds and have two strength five attacks. Most dangerously they each fire d6 s4 flaming shots. How to beat them? They only have range 18 so they will spend the first one or two turns advancing to get in range. You should make sure that they do not get to fire very often and try to keep valuable units away from them. Chillwind is a useful spell for shutting them down but keep in mind that daemons often have massive magic defence and that you need to cause at least two wounds for chillwind to stop them shooting. Not 100% reliable but it has a decent chance of being effective. Spells like bladewind and general magic missile spam are also effective if you are magic heavy. In general I’ve found that the best way to kill them is shut down their shooting for one turn and getting a charge against them. This can be done either through chillwind or a sacrificial unit(harpies are especially useful) For instance I have killed flamers by A) moving my black knights into charge range of them and B) moving my dire wolves between the flamers and the knights. That way the deamon is torn between shooting the blocking unit, moving to a new location which will reduce the effectiveness of his shooting and will probably still result in him getting charged or assaulting the blocking unit and then getting charged next turn. The same tactic can be used for dark elves using harpies/ dark riders and cold one knights. Because of the stats of flamers you usually need to send a serious combat unit to drop them. If they are in a forest don’t be afraid to send cavalry at them as cav can move through forests quite quickly, infantry however will be stuck most of the game. Another tactic is to tie up flamers using the unkillable BSB ie. A guy with heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak, pendant of khaeleth, sword of might and battle standard on a dark steed. Make sure he charges out of a unit so the flamers stand and shoot will hit his parent unit instead of him. If he gets into flamers his BSB negates the 1 cr the flamers would have for outnumbering and his 2+ ward, good armour and the fact that flamers will be hitting him on 5s should prevent any wounds from being scored on him while he will hopefully do a few wounds per turn. The result is that the flamers will be tied up for the whole game and hopefully destroyed by the battles end. A lot of effort to deal with one measly skirmishing unit I know and the daemons probably have a second flamer unit you’ll have to deal with as well.


Nurgle Units

Great Unclean one. This thing has 10 wounds and can get regeneration! However it has a major weakness as well. It is as slow. Therefore it should be marchblocked ASAP. It is also the easiest greater daemon to hold up with a tanking dreadlord or BSB as it is easy to catch and has only 4 attacks. If you have bolt throwers with no better target you may also want to try and knock some wounds off it. One of the best gifts they can take is Pestilent Mucus, which causes a no armour save toughness test for every model in base contact every time the model takes a wound. Even without the base spell reducing all models in contact abilities to 1, this is deadly to druchii and disasterous if the spell goes off.

Plague bearers and Nurgle herald. I have grouped these units together as you will never see one separate from the other. Plague bearers do not become a threat until they are joined by a herald of nurgle BSB (usually on a plaquin). With the herald they will mulch any unit in head on combat. Why? They gain regeneration, and the herald will have an ability that makes any unit in base contact with him always strike last, combined with the multiple attacks from his palanquin and a spell which reduces the stats of any models in base contact to all ones. It is tempting to try to assassinate the herald but to do this you need massive armour and toughness and to have stopped the spell. As you can guess elves aren’t really up to the task. So what to do? If you want to actually kill the unit you should take overpowering magic with the lore of fire and nuke it. I have got a nurgle block down to 2 men and the herald doing this before. However spending so many points on magic can put you at a disadvantage against the rest of the army. You could also attempt to flank charge with a unit that you have blessed with killing blow to bypass regen. The smartest idea is probably to march block the unit (which is easy because it is slow) and if you have to fight it only send in low point sacrificial units to hold it up while you focus on the rest of his army. Nurgle heralds also have a lethal spell called magnificent bubboes. It is cast on a 5+ and causes a character within 24' and los to take a wound with no armour saves. This can be a nightmare for our characters so be wary. Having some null talismans on at risk characters is an effective protection against this spell. The spell cannot be cast in combat so a sacrifical unit can prevent its casting but frontal combat against such a unit is not a place you want to be unless it is a last resort.

Nurglings. They are a swarm unit that can scout. They could be used to hold up important units but as the compete with the other special slots they don’t often make it to the battlefield.

Beast of nurgle. It is t5 with four wounds and regeneration. It can be used to guard the flanks of units and as a fire magnet. Units of them may even be used as flankers. It is resistant to shooting but fire magic will get past the regen. It can also be beaten in combat res (but be aware that it has d6+1 s4 attacks)


Slaanesh Units

The keeper of Secrets. It is much like a bloodthirster. It can move 20 on foot but it doesn’t fly so it can be marchblocked. It also has ASF and can get an ability which allows it to gain wounds as it deals them. On the whole treat it as a slightly less deadly bloodthirster.

Fiends of Slaanesh. If you face fiends of slaanesh treat them in a similar fashion to fleshhounds. However there are a few notable differences. They move 20! They are on s4 but they have 4 attacks. They have 3 wounds and cannot be killing blowed. Magic is more viable as they have no MR. You should also note that Daemon players may use a lone fiend as a marchblocker, charge redirector and character assassin much like a wood elf or high elf player would use an eagle.

Seekers of slaanesh. These are the elite daemon fast cav. They can move 20 and are better than most light cav in CC. However they are t3 so you should shoot them when they become a danger (though the wardsave makes this harder than usually)

Slaanesh herald. The slaanesh herald is probably the least dangerous but you must be aware of the fact that he gives ASF to any slaanesh units he joins. Slaanesh heralds and greater daemons can get an ability called siren song which forces one of your units to either charge them or flee. There isn’t anything you can do to prevent this except clever deployment but you should be aware that the daemon might have this up his sleeve. A Slaanesh herald can also be mounted on a chariot that can charge 20’. This is vulnerable to shooting but lethal in combat and ultra fast.

Daemonettes. Slaaneshs foot soldiers who look like they are seriously into S & M. Like bloodletters they are one of the less powerful units but do not underestimate them they are quite effective vs elves. They have 2 s3 armour piercing attacks each at iniative 5. They also have movement 6 so they have the edge against our infantry when it comes to getting charges. Like bloodletters they are vulnerable to shooting and will lose to most of our infantry unless they get the charge.


Undivided Units

Furies. Furies are the daemon equivalent of harpies (only better because they don’t suffer from fear and panic and have s4). Watch out for them hunting your war machines and march blocking you. You should shoot/ magic them when you get the chance. They can also be a major threat to our support units such as shades, harpies and dark riders.

Daemon Prince. This is the budget lord choice for Daemons. It is basically a less powerful greater daemon. It can be made to fly and also made into a lvl 2 mage. The daemon player will have be very careful with it as it is only t5 with 4 wounds with a 5+ ward. On the whole daemon princes are not often seen on the battlefield.

_________________
He is a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.

Dead men don't strike first


Last edited by Malevion on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.



Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:00 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:31 am
Posts: 838
Location: New Zealand
Post 
DAEMON TRICKS


I am loathe to call what goes on in a daemon army strategy as they are very much a move forward and autowin army. Hehe that’s perhaps a little harsh but ask a daemon player to give you a game with another army and see what happens =p. But anyway here are a few of the nasty tricks to watch out for. Please note that the daemon army may contain many of these elements at once.


The Nurgle Wall

This is basically an army that includes as its core lots of plaguebearer/ herald blocks and usually a great unclean one. Such an army is slow but it is very hard to score victory points off. When facing such a thing it is best to ignore and marchblock the nurgle stuff while taking out the mobile elements of the army. The ideal force to take on a nurgle wall is highly mobile and has heavy magic using the lore of fire.


Tzeentch Tomfoolery

This is the most magic heavy of the daemon army builds. It will have lots of herald of tzeentch and/or a lord of change. These will be backed up with lots of horrors and no doubt two units of flamers. If you are really unlucky you have some fleshound units charging you as well. The goal here should be to eliminate the flamers and horrors asap. You should be aware that all tzeentch close combat attacks and damaging spells count as flaming attacks. For this reason the hydra is highly at risk from them even in close combat.


Ultra Terror Bomb

Many armies can use terror bomb tactics but Daemons can do it best. They have a magic standard called the icon of despair which reduces the leadership of enemy units within 12 by -2. They place this banner on a khorne or tzeentch herald and send it zooming up the flanks along with a greater daemon. This way terror tests caused by the daemon are taken at -2. This can be made even worse by the inclusion of a special character called the masque of Slaanesh that can reduce the leadership of a single enemy unit within 12’ by a further d3.


Anti-Magic ability

Daemons have a banner known as the standard of sundering which reduces enemy casting rolls by -2. Combined with their already impressive amount of magic resistance and dispel dice and daemonic abilities that act as dispel scrolls this can make it very difficult to get of spells vs daemons. You should note that the daemon player has to declare which lore of magic the standard is going to make it harder to cast before the battle. You can bypass some of the standards negative effects by taking multiple lores amongst your casters. You should also note that power of darkness is not effected as it is a default spell rather than part of any specific lore.


Our units and how they fare vs Daemons

Dread Lord/ Master. These guys can be quite useful against daemons if they are equipped correctly. A tanking dreadlord with armour of living death and pendant of khaeleth can hold up a greater daemon while you beat it through combat res. A master BSB with pendant of khaeleth can be used for the same purpose and also to hold up small nasty units like flamers or fleshhounds. A Dragon mounted lord can be effective just watch out for tzeentch heralds casting the beast cowers on him and keep him away from greater daemons (except lord of change)

Sorceresses. Having at least some of these guys is important as you will definitely need some kind of magic defence. Going magic heavy is also a possibility as with a supreme sorc and 2 lvl 2s one with sacrificial dagger you should be able to out magic even daemons.

Assassins. When kitted out with rune of khaine, black lotus and touch of death they are good at killing fleshhounds and heralds(especially of the khornate variey) Rending star assassins with manbane can be effective at wounding greater daemons. In any case assassins are good against daemons because they allow you to take a charge and still win.

Cauldron of Blood. This provides an excellent boost to our units. In general you should give units fighting fleshounds and other 2 wound creatures killing blow. Everything else should get +1 attack. If it comes down to it the cauldron can also be a pretty effective tarpit especially if you make the death hag a bsb or have a bsb nearby. This is because all the attendants are individual characters so have to have attacks targeted specifically against them and each has a 4+ ward. You can even prevent some enemy models from attacking through cunning use of challenges. If one of the hags issues a challenge you may make it so some models in base contact with her may no longer have a target. They can also dish out the pain with their own attacks and can bless themselves with a cauldron effect. They are also stubborn so you only have to worry about being beaten and outnumbered by fear causers (a problem with daemons)

Spearmen. They can provide a good bulwark against daemons. A unit of 20 or more with a character with pearl of infinite bleakness, an assassin and a war banner should hold off most daemon charges and still win.

Repeater Crossbowmen. They are good for shooting horrors, seekers and regular daemon infantry. But you will often find them being overrun but quick moving daemon units. Shades are probably more useful as they are harder for daemons to get to grips with and shoot more accurately.

Corsairs. Multiple attacks are the way to get past daemon wards so corsairs can actually be useful especially if given the frenzy banner (which has the added bonus of making them immune to panic and fear) and blessed by the cauldron. Just make sure to get the charge. They can also make a good parent unit for an assassin.

Dark riders. I find them to be less useful against daemons. Of course they make good flankers but since daemons have wards and will not break they will likely have more of a chance to strike back meaning the dark riders die. They will also find themesleves totally outclassed by seekers the daemon fast cav. They are good at killing horror units and being a distraction to flamers, however.

Harpies. Harpies have low leadership so they will hardly ever get to charge due to fear. This does not mean they are useless however. Take one or 2 5 man units and use them to marchblock.

Shades. Shades are good for running around the flanks and shooting specific threats. Ie horrors and seekers. Because they scout they will have an easier time getting in range and will get off more shots throughout the battle. Their mobility means they are more able to get away from trouble as well. If they are given extra hand weapons or great weapons they are capable of killing flamers in CC (you probably want at least a 7 man unit if you are trying this) Flamers will be on at least -2 to hit on a stand and shoot when shades charge them (-3 if you are in a forest as well). Then if you bless the shades with an extra attack if they have great weapons or killing blow if they have extra hand weapon you should cut up the flamers pretty good. Added to this the flamers will be hitting you on 5s in return. All you have to worry about is failing your fear test. You should also be careful to protect the shades from magic missiles throughout the game.

Witchelves. They are similar in effectiveness to corsairs. They have less armour but the come with frenzy for free

Executioners. Their killing blow is good against such things as fleshhounds
and heralds. Their high strength can even put a few wounds on greater daemons. Just make sure they get a charge or have an ASF hag BSB. As with most units they become more effective with a cauldron blessing. Their main problem is that they can suffer from psychology on relatively low ld 8.

Cold One Knights. They have a similar roll to executioners against daemons. They make a better flanker against daemons due to their better armour save and greater movement. They can do a bit of damage on the charge especially if blessed and do not suffer from fear. However they are unreliable as always due to stupidity.

Cold One chariot. It is less effective against daemons as they cannot break from combat. At least it is tough and can be used as something of a fire magnent and distraction. Watch out for flickering fire as this magic missile can get strength 7 or higher.

Black guard. They are excellent as always. They will not panic, suffer from fear or break and should carve up many daemon units if they are blessed by the cauldron and have ASF/ get the charge. Just watch out for them getting shot up or magiced as you would against any army. Get the ring of hotek in there as well for some great anti-magic

Hydra. The hydra is useful as always (especially for flaming the regening nurgle blocks) However it is more at threat vs deamons than any other army. This is due to flamers and high strength characters with flaming attacks (khorne herald and bloodthirster). If you use it make sure to keep it away from such units

Reaper Bolt throwers. They only really shine if there is a greater daemon on the field. They can shoot other daemons as well but crossbows can perform this task more effectively and you will find that your bolt throwers are swiftly overrun by all the quick units daemons have access to.


General Strategies

It is difficult to make any one general anti-daemon strategy as they are such a powerful army. When you are facing daemons I think you want to have an army that focuses either on heavy combat and shooting or heavy combat and magic or just elite combat ability. You will find that an army relying on shooting and magic or on one or the other will be dominated. This is because daemons are very quick, will not run away and have a universal wardsave. If you do not have some punch in combat you will be overrun. You want units that deal the damage in combat, units that can hold against a daemon charge and still win. The banner of Hag Graef, Black Guard, the cauldron of blood and assassins are all very useful anti-daemon tools. Units such as witch elves and corsairs are also good against daemons (so long as they get the charge). Mutiple attacks are the best way to bypass the wardsaves and boosting them with either killing blow or more attacks from the cauldron makes them even stronger. Frenzy is not such an issue as daemons can flee from charges so redirection is more of an issue for them. The hydra is more at threat against daemons than any other army as they having lots of flaming attacks.

Since the entire damon army causes fear you should try to take as many units that it doesn't affect as possible. Any unit with the pearl of infinite bleakness, witch elves, corsiars with sea serpent standard, hydrae, cold one knights and black guard are all fear resistant.

It is also important to have some kind of ranged support to take out flanking units and other threats. You should always have a few units of crossbowmen or shades if the enemy has horrors as they are great at weakening the daemons magic. Bolt thowers can kill horrors as well but they only really shine against greater daemons and you will find they are very vulnerable to the multitude of fast daemon units. In General I’ve found heavy magic does more damage than heavy shooting. You should usually take our beloved dark magic, except when there is lots of nurgle on the field when lore of fire becomes viable.

If the Daemons have a BSB that has a powerful affect (standard of sundering or icon of despair) they should be a high priority target. Note that having a magical standard does not effect a heralds ability to take other magic items or "gifts".

So if you are fighting daemons you probably want an army that has A) the ability to take charges and dish out CC damage B) good magic offence and defence C) a little bit of shooting. You want to shut down their magic and flamers as fast as possible so you can gain dominance of the magic and movement phases. If you manage this you will find the battle will get a lot easier. As always attempt to get combined flank/ frontal charge on daemon combat units. Daemons will not break other units they crumble in a similar fashion to undead although this does rely on passing a leadership test (which is reduced by enemy combat resolution just like a regular break test) rather than simple mathematics like undead. Therefore your goal should always be to score as much CR as possible against daemons and stomp them into the ground as quickly as possible. Protracted combats are not a good thing for us.

You must always remember that Daemons have a wardsave. This is usually 5+. They can take this against all of our attacks so one of every three wounds against them will be negated. Sometimes they will roll better than average and this can be very frustrating. Just keep in mind that when you are facing daemons your units will be operating at two thirds efficiency and plan accordingly.

Except for their infantry units Daemons cannot get much static combat resolution (only large plaguebearer units with a nurgle herald can get much CR and still be dangerous). Their units generally rely on gaining ACR (accumulated combat resolution) to win fights. Therefore your goal must be to stop them from gaining ACR. How can this be done? ASF is good for this as it helps you knock out attacking models before they can strike thereby denying them combat resolution. Head on combat is not always the answer though, if you can flank a daemon unit you will gain a major advantage. If you manage to wipe out the models or more usually model on their flank you will prevent them from gaining any combat resolution while you get +1 for flank, however many wounds you did and maybe a banner or ranks. This forces them to take a bad crumbling test

Good luck and if you beat the daemons rest assured that no other army can give us such a challenge.

_________________
He is a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.

Dead men don't strike first


Last edited by Malevion on Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:14 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:31 am
Posts: 838
Location: New Zealand
Post 
A few last minutes things I thought of.

The attacks of all tzeentch units and also all the offensive tzeentch spells count as flaming. This is only important to us because it makes them a serious threat to the hydra even in close combat.

special characters. Many of the top tier daemon armies make use of their overly powerful characters. I have not covered special characters as my gaming group does not use them so I have no relevant experience. Any input would be apreciated

I hope this tactica helps everyone

_________________
He is a pimp and pimps don't commit suicide.

Dead men don't strike first


Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:20 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:40 am
Posts: 1004
Post 
Great article, i feel it should be very helpful as I have often struggled against Demons. :)

As I felt you were pointing out their main blocks really aren't that hard to beat, it's their extremely powerful heroes and support units that are the problem.
Even my Spearblocks have seen off units of Bloodletters and Daemonettes but it seems to take half the army to get rid of things like fleshhounds. :(

_________________
"I will embrace death without regret as I embrace life without fear"
ImageImageImage


Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:39 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8713
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Thanks, Malevion.

EDIT: some additional thoughts I've picked up in previous threads.
===================================================

MAGIC


- The most important thing is to hunt down his mages ASAP really, they have two defences, the 4+ ward and mobility, they will usually either have flight, or be in a flying chariot.
Their great weakness is that they can not hide in a powerfull combat unit, since they simply don't have that, in otherwords, if you get a charge of againts a mage, he will die. Harpies are very good against their mages.


- They can kill sorceresses or other characters inside babysitting units with a spell they have: you have to pass Ld test or take D6 no-save wounds. Expect to have -2Ld when they cast it... The Daemon errata/FAQ on that spell clarifies that they CAN pick any model they can see, even in a unit, to cast that spell on, so watch out for it; it's NOT one of those ones that you can just let go.


- Magnificent Buboes - Mark of Nurgle
- Much like the Bermuda Triangle, we coined it the "Buboes Triangle" where characters who enter it mysteriously just disappear.
It is not a magic missile. It's their 1st spell from their list, so every caster can take it. 5+ to cast, a model within LoS and 24" takes a wound which he cannot save. Basically, it's an Hochland rifle (sniper) that don't have any strength that auto-hit auto-wound (thus he can snipe your Pendant of Khaeleth bearer easily due to the lack of any strength). The sniping abilitiy completely IGNORES the Hydra's rule on protecting the Handlers.
- About the spell itself, try to keep your characters covered (harpies are an excellent screen) and use woods to cover your hydra, or you could only use the shape of the hydra to cover the handlers, it would not be too much difficult (he has to see the models, it's not sufficient seeing the unit). But the Nurgle mages can all be mounted so getting out of line of sight is very hard.
- You could even get the ring of hotek (in the end the chance with 2 dice to get a double is 1/6, not too high).
- Nurgle casters are more expensive than your sorceress. That mean you'll have more troops than him.
- If you can engage his character in combat, he can't cast the spell.


- Key thing to remember if you are a heavy magic user:
Power of Darkness is not a part of the Lore of Dark Magic and so is unaffected by the Great Standard of Sundering (-2 to all casts from chosen Lore). Use this to your advantage and the extra power dice to punch through your spells.


- Because of the Banner of Sundering, definitely mix Lores.
Our Dark Lore magic is brutal - the only concern is neutralising the BSB early on to really hammer those spells through.
Fire against Nurgle, but Fire spells are crap and do very little damage, with only spell 4 being worthwhile; however, all spells are damage-dealing and can be used to destroy support.
Death may be a fine lore, only spell 5 is no use to you. Spell 2 can be used to kill off heralds and take away special abilities granted by them. Walking Death can protect one of your units from Fear, Steal Soul can be used to snipe enemy characters (Focus Familiar helps a lot by extending the 12' range on this spell), and Wind of Death can cause damage to multiple units while bypassing MR.


- Ring of Hotek is particularly useful with CoK pulled into CC in the middle of the Chaos armyby the KoS...


- I cannot recommend too much to have a look to this thread, if ever you face the Lore of Nurgle:Defending Against Enemy Magic -- Mortal Lore of Nurgle

===================================================


Fighting the fatty smelly.

- Plague bearers and Nurgle herald.
Goodluck getting any killing blow on the herald with an Assassin, he strikes before you (who doesnt give the Always Strikes Last power to those regen heralds?) and if he's on Palanquin the assassin is very much dead.
If the herald is on a palanquin and has vapors (and why would he not) our T3 elves are going last. We can't killing blow him unless and until we get in base contact with him and when we do we will go last and have to absorb 6 poison attacks from the nurglings on the palanquin plus the herald's attacks. Thats another 3 S5 poison attacks.
Thats just the herald not the rest of the plauge bearers. I did not consider them but on a 50mm base the herald will be in base contact with essentially all your troops so they are going last behind all the nurgle models. Naturally this unit will have the 25 pt standard of seeping decay so that they may reroll failed rolls to wound. In addition to all this, gods forfend that he has gotten off the 3+ to cast default nurgle spell Miasma of Pestilence.

Solutions?
Plaguebearers are slow, make use of this.
Killingblow and flaming attacks makes this unit die faster.
Flaming attacks is from magic and flaming template.
killingblow from magic items, cauldron of blood, executioners.
Still Plaguebearers are hard too kill.
Witch Elves (or SSS corsairs) with Killing Blow from the Cauldron might be the only unit we have that could actually chew through the Plaguebearers.


- As for the Nurgle army...
Lore of Fire, Killing Blow on Frenzy Corsairs, War Hydra.
Kill first the non-Plaguebearers unit and after that Plaguebearer unit.
Plaguebearers are slow, other troops are faster and more dangerous in the first part of the game.

Each herald could take a bound 3 spell that is a character killer for druchii (toughness test or take d6 wounds with no armour saves) and the default spell only needs to be stopped once you are in combat. The easiest way to deal with the magic threat is to have a character with 2 null talismans so that you can freely dispel the bounds and throw 3 or 4 at any successful castings. If the nurgle force is magic heavy, it will be very small (likely two small blocks of plaguebearers as even 2 heralds will eat up almost half the points).

In terms of combat, the heralds are the key - once they die, the plaguebearers only have a ward save left and with WS3 and I1, they generally die before they get to attack back. Since regen is cancelled by killing blow, a character with deathpiercer or anything with KB can drop a herald in one round and then the units will die to even spearelves with FC. Witch elves are devastating against nurgle, especially if the herald is dead thanks to the high number of attacks and poison. A hydra is useful both to flame the unit before combat and to take it on from a flank. Be wary of a herald on a palaquin however as they likely will have a gift that makes you strike last and they get 6 x S3 poisoned attacks in addition to 3 x S5. This version is another 50 points but makes for a nasty fighter vs T3 druchii troops.

Shooting is not very effective with the herald in the unit since they are T4 and then get a 5+ ward followed by a 4+ regen - on average you need 9 hits with RXBs just to kill one plaguebearer!! Overall, a hydra, WEs, blocks of spears and a couple characters should allow you deal with this size force of nurgle deamons.

Nurgle win through combat res and you being unable to score wounds while they do through poison. Deny his casters line of sight to your characters or take null stones and regen armor.

Beware of Nurgle "always strike last" rule:
The gift causing the effect makes everyone in BTB lose ASF (if they have it) and always strike last instead. It affects all models in contact regardless of challenges. It's brutal against our assassins.

===================================================

More tricks.

- anything that reduces or negates the fear and terror of the Daemon army is your friend - characters on Cold Ones leading units, Black Guard and Magic items.


- When facing a daemon army, you should make assassinating his BSB early a huge priority.


- One rather expensive tactic used in fighting demons was to have Shadowblade pop up in the toughest unit and hold them in place while a unit of COK's comes into range and charges them, and if there's a KOS about the COk's would go after him while something else WE"s with full upgrade go after aforementioned unit. While Shadowblade may not be the best survivor, if you time it right you can get into combat on the second turn (10" move ftw) and with the right upgrades for the WE's you could mow through most blocks of enemies in short order (assuming they don't ASF).


===================================================

OK, I've finished re-reading every old thread I had collected.
The information that could be useful is posted somewhere in this thread.
Hopefully, I did not selected inaccurate information, or information that I failed to see already written in Malevion's posts.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Last edited by Calisson on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 43 times in total.



Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:15 am
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 249
Post 
Great article Malevion.

I have few points to add.

Daemon Units

Khorne Herald on Juggernaut.To me these guys are probably the best thing in the list 0+ save meaning they get a 2+ save against even strength 5. Along with a 5+ ward for anything that gets through they are incredibly difficult to get rid of. Along with 5 Strength 5+ hatred attacks with killing blow they will tend to clear any unit in front of it. This means they tend to increase the difficulty in dealing with the units they join by more than double (or even triple). This makes Flesh hounds into a unit as powerful as several other armies death stars. Bloodletters the other unit they can join also become very hard to deal with in combat. One of the main worries for Khorne Heralds is being shot by war machines which ignore their save so they tend to need to be in units (unless charging). Other than that Killing Blow is one of the few ways round them so Malevion is absolutely right to highlight how valuable killing blow is when dealing with these guys as it is the easiest way to get rid of them. Another more difficult way of getting rid of the Heralds is combat resolution this usually means doing immense damage on the charge to the unit he is with whilst hopefully negating the damage he can cause to some degree (such as 5+ ward from cauldron or pendant character).

Core blocks. I believe the key to using daemons well (which is actually increasingly required as the new books which come out are increasing the power level of those races) is in using the core blocks well. It is true that many players use these poorly but better players will use them well so you need to be careful. As we have already seen the Flesh Hounds, Flamers, Greater Daemons etc. can take a huge amount of attention to get rid of. However, this is where a good player the core blocks take advantage. Malevion has already covered the Plague bearers with herald combo and without a Herald the unit is fairly average but still useful (although they would be an odd choice). To start with all these units come with a ward save, daemonic instability and a rank. Some of the best players I have seen take standards as well that means against small units they have +3 combat res to start with if they can get outnumber. This means they are effective flankers (against most things in our army) or block units able to defeat light combat units such as shades and dark riders and shooting units. Consider the Pendant BSB if you are planning to use him to charge a unit of flamers and you get flanked by one of these blocks you are going to be requiring double 1s. As we know it is a war of attrition to go through Flamers so it isn’t hard to bring a unit round to support. A real threat is that we commit a lot of resources to going through a threatening unit such as Flesh hounds and then we find that he daemon player has set up flank charges which take out our fairly vulnerable units in response.

A big concern when facing daemons is instability those little units are not easy to go through in one hit if one or two are left then a flank charge from another block is a real problem. This makes the core units a real problem when used to block your combat units as you may not be able to go in with confidence that you will get through to the other side. You need to be able to go through Daemon units with confidence otherwise the other daemon units will encircle you and take you to pieces. It is worth bearing in mind that these core blocks can be almost as effective as Flagellents or Slayers at pinning your units in unfortunate positions.

I know Malevion has said they Daemonettes and Bloodletters are less effective. I would challenge that sometime Horrors or Plague bearers have their place but Daemoettes and Bloodletters are often the standard troop choices for an army that isn’t concerned by magic or having the big block. With Bloodletters I have already discussed the use of being able to put a Khorne Herald in the unit but in addition that that they are still M5 which can make a big difference (especially when going after shooters or flank charges) and have Strength 5 and killing blow. In truth these skills are probably more important against other armies which aren’t as fragile as ours but the pose a significant additional threat to our cavalry, chariots and characters. Daemonettes are a fantastic unit M6 is huge you are able to move them round so quickly they can go round the flank or put pressure on the centre so quickly it is frightening. They represent a real threat to shooters (including shades and Dark riders a 12 inch charge isn’t straight forward to avoid) and combat units alike. Of the things discussed above for combat units they are probably the best. They have 2 armour piercing attacks which makes them dangerous to cavalry and lethal to light units. Also the have two excellent standards which are fairly cheap. First they can be made stubborn on the first round of combat making them very difficult to take down in a single round of combat (great with a siren song herald) and secondly they have the siren Standard which means you have to declare hold as a charge reaction so no cunning bait and flee tactics against them. What I would say is that most of the core blocks in the daemon army are actually strong choices if they were in any other army and we can’t rely on daemon players not noticing this.

Fiends of Slannesh. It is just worth noting that a lot of players use single fiends of slannesh like great eagles for character sniping, deflecting and shooter hunting.


Dark Elf units

Cold One Chariots. I have to disagree about Cold One Chariots I think they are one of the most effective units against daemons. Firstly at 100 points they are a cheap combat unit which is important as often you can get over whelmed by all the cheap combat units daemons can throw out. Secondly they cause fear which means you are counteracting the fear caused by the daemon army. Next it is tough enough and hits hard enough to deal with flamers and flesh hounds two of our biggest worries. Flamers only wound on 5’s against the chariot and the chariot gets a 4+ save it is really hard for flamers to take it down. Versus a Flesh Hound charge the chariot on average takes one wound and causes one back only losing combat by outnumber (not ideal I admit but a lot better than a lot of other things would fare) this gives you a various options if things are going badly. On the charge the Chariot is a serious threat and both units have legitimate fears of being taken out by chariot charge or at least reduced to a minimal threat. The main benefit a chariot gives is it add the extra damage and combat resolution need to take daemon units out in one round of combat that is important to avoid being bogged down by daemonic instability and ward saves.

Shooting. There are two key focuses of taking on a daemon army with shooting either taking units out which tends to be hard due to the need to focus several units at once or weakening units to either reduce their threat to your units or make it easier for you to destroy them quickly in combat. Usually it isn’t easy take out full units with shooting especially give the ward save so I tend to focus on weakening the units. Taking a rank off a core block or dropping a Flesh Hound can make quite a difference as to how that unit can perform. If there is a greater Daemon on the field then shooting these tends to take priority as they are much harder to take out in combat. The main point with shooting is that as Malevion points out daemons are quick so shooting probably won’t protect the unit it’s self so you will need to use your combat units for protection RBTs are easy to fit in with combat units but units such as RXBs are harder to protect so you may wish to consider beefing them up with shields, standard and musician or using hills or other units such as harpies or chariots to protect them. Also if you want the RXBs to shoot at a large target they can sit behind your main battleline.


Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:31 am
Profile
Malekith's Personal Guard
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:19 pm
Posts: 910
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Post 
A note on the greater demons, you never mentioned rending star assassins. They can whittle away wounds at decent speed themselves.

_________________
Group 28- Name: Cananatra; Warrior; Follower of Slaanesh
WS:4 S:4 T:5 D:4 I:3
Equipment: MC Long sword, Throwing Axe, Dagger, Heavy Armour, Slaanesh Amulet, Dalvian Hunting Horn, Rations x 7, Null stone x 1, 525 Gold, Dark Steed, Blackpowder Pistol [18/18]
Skills: Defensive Fighting, Ride, Endurance


Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:15 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:55 pm
Posts: 401
Location: Ontario, Canada
Post 
Very nice article and quite comprehensive. The one area I would suggest a slight change is on the Nurgle GUO. One of the best gifts they can take is Pestilent Mucus, which causes a no armour save toughness test for every model in base contact every time the model takes a wound. Even without the base spell reducing all models in contact abilities to 1, this is deadly to druchii and disasterous if the spell goes off. Also, the GUO is move 6" which isn't as fast as other greater daemons but is still not quite in the slow category.


Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:51 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Post 
Solid article, and lots of excellent additional feedback to round out the discussion.

I definitely agree that Rending Star Assassins are a money-maker. Under ideal circumstances, they can move within range of a greater daemon for a three shots, stand-and-shoot for three more shots, then tackle the Daemon with ASF Manbane to bump off a wound or two (even the Keeper will have to roll off for ASF Initiative priority. For as many points as a naked Level 2 Sorc, you can generate a lot of offensive potential against a great daemon, especially if coupled with Shades for some lucky crossbow wounds. Even if a Daemon player moves to stay out of range of the Assassin and Shades, they then serve as an excellent area-denial unit, making a greater daemon more reluctant to charge into your deployment zone and buying more time for the rest of your army.

I also agree that Pestilent Mucus is a dangerous threat on a Great Unclean One. Since the GUO has so few attacks, Pestilent Mucus really helps him deplete units he's attacking and makes failed instability tests dangerous for the unit fighting the GUO.

Lastly, Furies: I think these are a tremendously dangerous unit, especially to Dark Elves. Outwardly they simply look like Harpies. However, they're also capable of going after Shades, Dark Riders, Harpies, and other valuable mobile units and really demolishing them in close combat. S4 Attacks are dangerous to us, and Furies can easily bring that to the fray.

Also, I've seen one particularly nasty trick that Daemon players use that involves Furies. When fighting a very mobile enemy monster (such as a Dreadlord on Dragon) a Daemon player can take a unit of 8-10 Furies and charge it into combat. The Dark Elf player usually doesn't expect lowly Furies to challenge a dragon, and will hold against the charge. In the same Movement phase, the Daemon player will move his general and BSB within range of the Dreadlord on Dragon, giving their benefits to the Furies. Suddenly, the Furies become a very effective tarpit that has just taken the dragon out of the game for a turn. If even a single Fury survives the combat (not hard, due to ward saves, and re-rollably Daemonic instability) then the combat continues in the Dark Elf player's turn. The Dreadlord and Dragon probably kill off the last Fury or two in his own combat round, winning the combat but unable to pursue or overrun. The Dreadlord is stuck sitting there to take a charge from a Greater Daemon and/or Daemon BSB next turn. Utterly nasty, and an effective way for Furies to neutralize a mobile Lord without being quite as obvious as Siren Song.

_________________
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


Image
Image


Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:01 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:40 am
Posts: 1004
Post 
Tethlis wrote:
Lastly, Harpies: I think these are a tremendously dangerous unit, especially to Dark Elves. Outwardly they simply look like Furies. However, they're also capable of going after Shades, Dark Riders, Harpies, and other valuable mobile units and really demolishing them in close combat. S4 Attacks are dangerous to us, and Harpies can easily bring that to the fray.


bit confused here, Demons can't get Harpies, do you mean furies which outwardly look like Harpies?

_________________
"I will embrace death without regret as I embrace life without fear"
ImageImageImage


Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:10 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Post 
Bounce wrote:
bit confused here, Demons can't get Harpies, do you mean furies which outwardly look like Harpies?


Yeah, typo, not so much because Furies look like Harpies, but more because they're both underpriced, flying, skirmishing, cowardly Core choices from powerful army books whose respective names have the same number of syllables, contain the letter "R" in the middle, and end in "ies".

;)

_________________
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


Image
Image


Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:00 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8713
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
I've selected some thoughts about fighting a BT in old threads.
They are left here for your opinion, myself I'm not knowledgeable at all about daemons.


Bloodthirster
Expect it to be kitted with: obsidian armor , immortal fury, firestormblade: 7 rerollable flaming S7 attacks , with 3+save 5+ward save and no magic weapon can be used against him... It is just an immortal unstoppable terrorcausing killing machine...

How to deal with that? There are several ways that have been investigated. First, Stonecutter made a thorough analysis. Next, several other quicker investigations.


Stonecutter's analysis:
This is a case of identifying the threat and then determining what vulnerabilities, if any, of the Bloodthirster exist.

BT's assets.
To begin with, the BT is a terror causing killing machine with 7 x S6 attacks with KB, flies and kitted up with a 3+ armour, MR2, 5+ ward save together with an ability to negate any magic weapons.

The drawbacks of a BT are:
- Cost - 550 points - this means the rest of army will be much smaller.
- Size - large target makes him easier to hit and he can be seen everywhere unless behind cover - if he is hiding, he cannot charge.
- Flying - cannot enter woods by flying and cannot enter buildings at all and cannot join a unit so he must fight on his own.
- Being a BT - very likely the opposing army is khorne based, so likely no magic of note to face and a very small army overall and vulnerable to shooting.

Vulnerabilities as the BT Approaches
Taking everything into account, the BT will be vulnerable to both RBTs and an assassin with manbane and rending stars. Both of these units are multi-purpose and thus not built solely for fighting a BT. With proper terrain set up, it should be possible to peal off at least a couple of wounds before he gets into combat.
The key will be in setting up terrain such that he cannot fly into the RBTs and is exposed to fire for the maximum time. Use woods for RBTs and hide the assassin in a unit that will be close to an interim hiding spot for the BT - the assassin can move 5" and throw 12" for a 17" range and that is a HUGE area.
Massed RXB fire will result in occasional wounds that get through and may force the BT to remain hidden, which is a victory in itself.

Vulnerabilities in Combat
The BT starts with zero static combat res, or may get a flank at best. Static combat res can defeat him through instability.
While the BT is approaching, focus everything else on eliminating any supporting units so that he has to fight alone for at least a couple rounds. This may include sacrificing a unit or two to keep supporting units away.
A well kitted general on a cold one with PoK will have a 4+ AS following by the PoK should be able to prevent wounds from getting through for the most part or, at most, cause him to suffer only 1 wound.
A ranked unit with FC warbanner and a BSB will start you at +3 even if he hits your flank (nice bait) and +7 if he is foolish enough to take on your front.
Once you have baited him into the flank of a spear unit (make it easy), the general challenges. Assuming the general loses 1 wound, the BT checks instability and on 8 or better loses wounds. The unit now turns, gains its ranks(or not, depending on size), and goes to +4 to +7.
A distant unit of anything can now charge the BT and add +1 for flank or +2 for rear - even better if more infantry hits him to get ranks. By this point, the BT should be really hurting as it will start combat with a static resolution deficit of +7 or worse. After doing one more wound to your general, he will check instability at +6 and unless he is really lucky, will pop.
In the interim, the rest of your shooting will shred the army and you can deal with them as required.

MAGIC
Lore of Metal, rule of burning iron. R of BI may now be cast into combat and while you must overcome both MR2 and only have a 33% chance to wound, every little bit helps so this can help keep him occupied or draw more dispel dice so the rest of your magic can tackle other units.
Dark Lore Word of Pain would also be very useful in reducing the number of attacks that get through as the BT would need 5s and 6s to hit.

SUMMARY
The BT is tough but has to get into combat or he is useless. Everything that you would bring normally can be used against him. In the end, you can sacrifice 2-3 cheap units and still consider it a victory - you lose 300 points over several turns while keeping almost 600 occupied. This gives you significant numbers over the rest of the army that you can crush with your superior numbers and firepower.


More about fighting against a BT.

=> Shooting: Easiest and best way to face the daemon (Large Target). Better options will be the little and fast shooting. DRs and Shades are excellent to annoy him. RBT single bolts disallow armor so you just have to wait until he fails a ward save. RBT single shots are the safest option obviously.

=> Basically a 4 RBT setup. These I placed so far appart from each other so that the terror thing could not spill over to the others.
By having these set up far apart I forced my opponent to do one of 3 following things.
1 - Hide from them and loose out on the BT's potential in which case I would just shoot at something else.
2 - Ignore them and get pinned to the ground by them.
3 - Use the BT to hunt them down. Yes its 400 pts lost but it keeps the BT occupied the whole game and it allows a minimum of 7 shots from RBT's at it.

=> Assassin, manbane/star is a good combo against him.

=> He is flying, so anything you want to live, throw it in a forest, granted his ground move is still 8 I think. I'd suggest a shooty assassin, shades in a forest, RBTs in forests, dark riders shooting and fleeing, flying characters avoiding combat and just shooting.

=> You can, emphasis on can, wound him with chariots and cold one knights. Once he has lost a few wounds you have a chance to beat him in combat.

=> You just have to take a few wounds off him with shooting or magic. Then try to get him into combat with an SCR unit with a champion. You challenge and even if he wounds with every attack, he can only score 5 for CR.

=> charge him in the front with a unit of 20 Black Guard with Standard of Slaughter and a BSB, in the Rear with a unit of 10 Cold One Knights and a Warbanner, in one flank with a chariot. And in the other flank with some Executioners.
Even if you don't get any wounds you get +2 for rear +1 for flank +3 for ranks +1 Outnumber +1 Warbanner +1 a normal banner + D3 for standard of slaughter +1 for BSB. That is a static combat resolution of at least 11!
The trouble is to get the charge on a a highly movable target... And to bait him is a challenge as he is a flying large target and can see & charge over other units.

=> Dreadlord mounted on Black Dragon, kit the Lord out with Hydra Blade, PoK and Potion of Strength. Ok, so the HB is rendered useless by the obsidian armour, but guzzle down the PoS and you have 4x S:7 attacks and 5x S:6 attacks. Probably our quickest and best shot at taking him down. But you need to charge and even there the chances to kill him are few: a dragon lord with lance and the dragon do about 2 wounds, then he strikes back, killing or seriously wounding the dragon; even if he do not kill instantly the dragon he strikes first the next round. So I'd say no. A Bloodthirster would almost kill any mount he can locate his attacks, even dragon.

=> Dreadlord with the Black Amulet (4+ sometimes rebounding ward save), Potion of Strength (minimum of Strength 7), and your choice of a mundane weapon to potentially make him strength 9. If you can suck a wound or two off of him before you engage in hand to hand combat, you have a decent chance of killing it outright.

=> Dreadlord on CO with Armour of Eternal Servitude, Pendant of Khaeleth and a great weapon (possibly add the Egg to that) in a unit of BG might do the trick. The only problem being, of course, that the BT would never charge such a unit and you would never catch him..

=> lore of Shadows is great. Go magic heavy and all take lore of shadows, take an assasin with the cloak of twilight, and hope your mages get unseen lurker and steed of shadows.
Take a dreadlord on his own, with pendant of khaeleth and armour of eternal servitude, this way he has protection, and has no mount that can be slain, also the pearl of infinite bleakness may be effective, to remove the terror and insane courage roll.
Put the assasin in a unit of shades and try and come behind the bloodthirster, and literally cast steed of shadows on the lord, and unseen lurker on a unit of black guard and a unit of shades, this way you get +2 to combat res through rear attack, and ranks from the blackguard.
Then issue a challenge with your lord, and he has no mount to target. Give the shades great weapons, and the dreadlord lance, and give the black guard the standard of slaughter, this means high combat res, and the opponent will have little dispel dice, as he will be thinking his magic resistance would be enough. It may take a lot, bt can be done.

=> Is it worth focusing the whole armies shooting onto the Thirster though? Kill the other stuff. With Juggers, Flamers, and any fast Slaanesh stuff on the table, focusing solely on the BT could lead to a quick demise. It is only a six turn game and unless you play really poorly he will not be able to destroy more than 2-4 units regardless. Make sure to kill his army. He will have a shortage of units if he brought this big guy.

=> However, it is NOT a good idea to ignore a Bloodthirster. He is a pure powerhouse, easily able to bring in about 800 VP or more if left unattended!
The best way is of course to keep him out of combat, but that isn't very likely to happen... So, you main focus should be to keep him in ONE combat for as long as possible. The longer you can hold him, the better chance you have to flank and kill him with SCR. Champions are great for this sience they let you keep your (often small) flanking unit.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:41 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8713
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
More tips found in old threads. Again, I've never tested them myself, I just paraphrase.

How to beat Great Daemons.

The major problems dark elves have is dealing with greater demons, shooting does not work effectively, nor does magic to a large degree and therefore they have to be largely dealt with in combat with fully ranked up infantry unit with fc in the front and hit in the flanks as well to pop it through combat resolution. Bait it or tie it up with harpies, dark riders or another expendable unit for a few turns, ranked spearman and harpies usually do a nice job. March said spearman unit with harpy screen in front of it, either the gd will charge the harpies and will kill them and then will run into your spearman unit which is what you want. The gd then has to do at least five wounds to even draw combat. If it doesn't charge said harpies, charge it hit it with harpies in the side and spearman in front then it has to do six wounds to stop from losing wounds. Also put an assassin in the spearman unit if possible, this usually means that unit will kill said gd in two rounds of combat. I have also used this tactic to break and kill both dragons and gaints in tournaments. It works nicely as your opponent does not expect it.

- Daemon character. The Daemons draw their power from being exceptionally well internally balanced and having specialized troops that at the same time are all rather durable with ItP and 5+ ward. That, and the impressive CC potential they have. Of the Core Infantry, even Horrors can manage in CC with their Banner of Change and especially if there's a Herald to accompany them.

- Don't even hope to cast things on BT and flesh hounds - they have respectively MR2 and MR3, which means no Word of Pain on BT nor hounds. Concentrate your magic on other things - like horrors, plaguebearers, rare choices.

- Great Unclean One?
Black Guards + CoKnights with their S4 if the guy fails his 5+/5+/4+ saves, other wounds caused by instability.

- Keeper of Secrets: This thing is a close combat monster that moves FAST, and may well end up 4" in front of your deployment zone saying 'charge me or flee'. Best way to take this guy down is big static combat resolution (from ranks and banners) or a character with the Pendant of Khaeleth.
Keeper is by far the most squishy GD when it comes to shooting. And the amount of shooting that DE can bring makes him unsafe anywhere on the field. Assassin with Manbane+Rending Stars ought to do the trick. This can smack him down in concert with RBT shots (the Kipper is large and hard to hide).
The key is to hold the rest of the daemon army when you're trying to get rid of Keeper. Dark riders are a must against them so make sure you have at least 2 units. Harpies are also great to protect RBT against furies so have them also.
Note: an assassin in melee, both are I10 ASF so it´s up to dice roll.
But the best way to get rid of this kind of army is to have a dreadlord with pendant and some kind of magic weapon on a dark steed or if you prefeer a cold-one. Charge Keeper out of the unit with a support of some harpies for instance, challenge him, pass all your ward saves and then make a wound or two back at him.

- Skulltaker:
If he's alone on jugger, a good shot from a bolt thrower will be enough.
The best way to deal with Skulltaker on foot in a unit is just to refuse the challenge. Outside of a challenge, Skulltaker loses all of his nasty toys, he'll be useless.
Static Combat Resolution: basically, surround him and hit him with a big infantry block. Sure, he'll deal some kills, but he won't be able to kill enough to win combat. Then, he goes poof, no more deamon, no more problem.
Hydra? Dragon? He has flaming attacks whether he challenges or not. His killing blow against everything is only a challenge skill, outside a challenge its normal KB for him - so no beating up on hydra.
If he is in a unit of Juggernauts, that is a tough shell to crack. Shooting his 'bodyguard' can work but its not foolproof. Killing blow him, same as for all tough heroes. That's what the cauldron is for, or if you'd prefer, a dreadlord on a manticore with the dreadlance... should get past his ward save. It's high risk, but this is the DE we are talking about. Lowest risk would be a master with the pendant and a great weapon given KB by a cauldron.
Skulltaker dies from challenging Dreadlord with Soulrender, AoD and PoK. Definitely, PoK messes up with Skulltaker's killyness. Unless your lord is mounted on a monster... then the Skulltaker just kills the monster and wins by combat result - fear - outnumber.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:18 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8713
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Nasty DoC lists, for you to train against.

List 1
3 Tzeentch Heralds - 2 with Master of Sorcery, one with a spellbreaker
Blue Scribes
3 x 10 Horrors
2 x 5 Furies
4 x 5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flamers
4 Flamers
2000ish pts


Try fighting that...or this...

List 2
Level 3 Keeper
3 Tzeentch Heralds on discs - one is a bsb with Icon of Despair, the other 2 have Master of Sorcery
3 x 10 Horrors
2 x 7 Furies
4 Fiends
6 Flamers
2300pts ish with 14 PD and 10 DD


Try against (without tailoring):

List 3
Bloodthirster
3 Heralds on discs
10 horrors
10 horrors
10 horrors
5 Fleshounds
5 Fleshounds
x furies (with any points left over)
6 Flamers
6 Flamers
Good luck catching anything worth any decent amount of points while his magic phase has 11 PD 8 DD, 4 flying characters which can easily take down any war machine they fancy.


The next one is a fast list but it only excels at one thing, melee, which it does very well. His tactics are very simple: turn 1 he runs forward with the Hounds in front, juggers and Thirster behind. Turn 2 he annihilates just about everything, and it's usually game over by turn 3.

List 4
Blood Thirster
BSB Herald on Jugger
3x10 Pink Horrors (which do nothing)
3 Juggernauts
4x6 Flesh hounds, one with Karnak

An alternative is 4 heralds on juggers, all with 0+ saves in hound units.


List 5
Lord of Change with Level 4, Will of Tzeench and Power dice.
3 Flying Heralds with Flying and Power Dice
1 = BSB with bound level 5 D6 S6 hits to all in 12" banner.
3 x 10 Horrors
2 x 3 Screamers
2 x 6 Flamers

19+ power dice per turn, lethal firepower and nothing meaningful needs to get into combat if it doesnt want to.


List 6 by Comrade Igor.
Bloodthirster, Immortal Fure, Axe of Khorne, Armour of Khorne = 515
Herald of Tz, Chariot, Master of Sorcery = 200
Herald of Tz, Master of Sorcery, Spell Breaker = 165
The Masque = 90

10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120

5 Flesh Hounds = 175
5 Flesh Hounds = 175
3 Screamers = 90

5 Flamers = 175
Fiend of Slaanesh = 55


List 7
Here's another list;

Kairos = 625
The Masque = 90
Blue Scribes = 81

10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120
7 Furies = 84

5 Flesh Hounds = 175
5 Flesh Hounds = 175
5 Flesh Hounds = 175

5 Flamers = 175
Fiend = 55

And another;

List 8
Keeper, level 3, Allure, Siren Song, Torment Blade = 590
Herald of Tz, BSB, Master of Sorcery, Winged Horror, Icon of Despair = 260
The Masque = 90

10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120
10 Horrors = 120

5 Flesh Hounds = 175
5 Flesh Hounds = 175
5 Flesh Hounds = 175

3 Flamers, Pyrocaster = 120
Fiend = 55

And another;

List 9
GUO, level 4, Trappings, Staff of Nurgle = 670
Herald of Nurgle, level 1, Staff of Nurgle = 215
Herald of Nurgle, level 1, Staff of Nurgle = 215
The Masque = 90

14 Plaguebearers, standard, champion = 192
14 Plaguebearers, standard, champion = 192
10 Horrors = 120

2 Beasts of Nurgle = 200
3 Flamers = 105

List 10, by Xizor
Keeper
Masque
Tzeentch BSB
3x10 Horrors
3x5 Flesh Hounds
2x1 Fiend

Its not that bad...no Flamers!


List 11
A Khorne BSB on a juggernaut with obsidian armor and the standard of chaos glory; the herald will then join either a unit of blood crushers or flesh hounds. Essentially, this banner will make all demon units within an 18 inch range stubborn. A rerollable stubborn instability test with the already high daemon leadership more or less makes the entire army unbreakable. To add to this, the guy has a 0+ armor save, and nullifies all magic items.

The most effective way to deal with this is by either using an assassin with rhune of khaine, manbane, and cauldron KB blessing or some type of tooled up character with the potion of strength.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:44 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 14 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software