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Low Points = Hydra vs Bolt Thrower 
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Trainee Warrior
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:55 am
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Location: Krakow
It`s funny but I can`t find any reason to field 2 RBT instead of my 5 headed pup . I`m still fresh in druchii subject but againts my oponnents (empire, chaos, Tomb Kings, Wood Elves ) it`s absolutly hiliarious not to take Hydra. In fact, of all my lost games the most terrible were those in wich RBT found it to the battlefield. Just to sum it up:
Againts Empire: It`s basicly a wonderful fire magnet - Enemy army spedns most of its effort to kill it (usually to no avail) and is very vulnerable to terror
Againts Chaos - Terror is great (all Ld 8 ) and here due to small units sizes hydra usually stomps
Againts Tomb Kings - those scorpions and RBT dont get along very well
Againts Wood Elves - he just can`t kill that thing...
So - my conclusion is:
a) Hydra is TERRIBLY under priced (should be aroun 200-220 pts)
b) RBT are to expensive for what they do
c) In smaller (>2000) games it`s a no brainer to take hydra


Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:51 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I have used both and found them both very useful. Against MSU cavalry and Ogre sized things, RBT's can be great. Then again, so can a hydra. I think they are both excellent selections, but in the current book hydra's are pretty tough to pass up. You don't see many lists with 3 RBT's, that's for sure. But both are very good.


Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:29 pm
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I run both. Bolt throwers can take out some very difficult units with tremendous ease, and are wonderfully effective versus shooting regiments, fast cavalry, and quite a few monster choices. They have great synergy with repeater crossbows, rending stars and breath weapons, and the enemy often spends a disproportionate amount of resources trying to kill them.

Of course, the Hydra is one of the most underpriced, overpowered single units currently available in Warhammer Fantasy, so it's hard to argue against its effectiveness.

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Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:40 pm
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If you've got a unit, you always take without a second thought, you've got a crutch. Ditching the crutch will force you to think in alternate tactics, and make you a better player - and noone forces you to use that rare slot :)


Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:29 am
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I agree with the virgin- I'd just alternate them to screw with people. remember, people get used to tactics, so it's good to switch up. Both are on my purchase list for the next 2 months, mainly for one reason- you send the hydra into melee and you keep the bolt throwers back. If you can support the unit with units the same speed or faster, it looks viable.

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Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:41 pm
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Noble
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I agree with your assessment, Leonates.


The hydra cause all kinds of grief to the opponent, while bolt throwers usually do not push their own weigth.

Bolt throwers are also very easy victory points, since they have only two toughness 3 crew, while the hydra usually survives the battle and preserves victory points.

RBTs give you a tactical advantage with their long range, which can be important to support your other medium range shooting. I usually run both a hydra and 2 RBTs on 2000 points.

But when talking about smaller battles, like 1000 points, there is no doubt that the hydra i MUCH better. Dont let anyone convince you otherwise!

2 hydras would be immense at 2000 points. But I am not even purchasing my second hydra... The model and abilities are deadcool and I would not miss them for a thing - but fielding two hydras is kinda rough. I would never do that to my opponents - not even on 3000 points!


Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:57 pm
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RBT are good if the other guy has big fliers like dragons or gyrocopters that just ignore T-3 shooting. Hydras a good against most other things.

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Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:35 pm
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Whilst Reapers 'CAN' take down large monsters they "can" also spend the whole game missing and being generally ineffective until they get charged by some flyer in turn 2-3 and wiped out

Hydra's on the other hand are much tougher and harder to get rid of. You can rely on a Hydra to be nasty a lot more than a Bolt Thrower.

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Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:05 am
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Bounce wrote:
Whilst Reapers 'CAN' take down large monsters they "can" also spend the whole game missing and being generally ineffective...


Don't blame the unit for the dice biting you. Even a Bloodthirster can suck when the dice bite you.

Quote:
...until they get charged by some flyer in turn 2-3 and wiped out.


If you're having this problem routinely, put a unit of 10 RHB corsiars near your RBTs. They excell at shredding the sort of cheap flyers typically assigned to the anti-artillery mission.

If it's a big expensive flyer... that's the sort of target the RBTs dream of. Fire away!


Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:16 am
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Noble
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I like to think of it as playing a style of list. When I go with a heavy infantry list (bg, execs, we supported by cauldron), I like the reapers for some ranged damage potential. I love the hydra, but the reapers are necessary for pressure from afar when you have got no mages and to suppress enemy shooters.

On the other hand, in faster more evasive list, the hydra wins out for it's mobility.


Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:55 am
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Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:06 am
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I've had so much success with RBT that I'd never give them up as an option. Too many times I see large targets (Stegadons, DoC Lords, Dragons, etc) that RBTs can take down. Also, RBTs almost always pay for themselves with those 6 shots per turn at more valuable targets (WoC warriors and knights, fast cav, and DoC units). My lists almost always have 2 RBTs and 1 Hydra. The Hydra can die too easily when hit with flaming attacks (Tzeentch magic, Lore of Fire, flaming attacks from stuff like LM salamanders).


Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:39 am
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This isn't just bad luck this is average luck.
In one game a Bolt Thrower has a maximum of 6 shots.
At long range only 4 times will it hit the large target.
It will then only wound twice. This will double to four wounds.
Thus a single Boltie can't be relied on to get rid of a Dragon by itself.
Two bolties can do it but need several turns of shooting. You have to take into account the fact some shots will hit the rider, although that may be a preferable outcome.
Thus if you can get four turns of clear shooting at a Dragon/ Steg/Bloodthirster you can bring him down.

However a clever player won't give you four turns he may reasonably give you one.
Take Dark Elves. Turn one the Harpies fly up the Dragon hides.
Turn two the harpies get shot but hold then charge in and wipe out Bolt Throwers.
The Dragon can spend the rest of the game free to do what it wants.

Of course you can get lucky or be playing against someone without a contingency plan for war machines but this can't be relied upon.

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Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:49 am
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Noble
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That's true, so even if you only get 2 bolts at a large target, the RBT's have done their job (keeping that large target hidden).

Also, multishot is great. Oft times have I with two volleys of multishot reduced a unit of Chaos knights by two or three in turn 1. Not yet have they made their points back, but that hard to deal with unit just became a little easier to deal with.

And soletary characters need to watch it too. I even need to protect my bolt throwers with Great Weapon Shades, because my opponent get so nerved from them he sends down some heavy cavalry (because light won't make it through the RXB's, who always get to shoot before the reapers).

So this brings us to another point: RBT need a complement of at least 20 RXB to be truly effective and avoid being rushed. Those are good cores anyway, so that doesn't hurt, unless you're again going for a more mobile army/core choices.

leonates80 wrote:
Againts Empire: It`s basicly a wonderful fire magnet - Enemy army spedns most of its effort to kill it (usually to no avail) and is very vulnerable to terror
Againts Chaos - Terror is great (all Ld 8 ) and here due to small units sizes hydra usually stomps
Againts Tomb Kings - those scorpions and RBT dont get along very well
Againts Wood Elves - he just can`t kill that thing...


Against empires: cannons deal just as easily with hydras as with bolt throwers...
Against Chaos (warriors I assume): S5 often unsufficient to get through heavy armour - versus daemons no idea sorry
Against Tomb Kings: lots of multiwound units (ushabti, chariots, those flying things, bone giants) you're right about the scorpions though, although that's not a problem that can't be overcome.
Against Wood Elf: threatening treeman is always great, and multishotting archers keeps our own troops alive. That can unfortunately never be compared to the damage that breath weapon can do after a march to a unit in a forest... treekin and treeman will eat your hydra for breakfeast though.


Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:21 am
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