Taking first turn or not

[Bounce]

After attending several tournaments I have noted that there is one major descision which is often overlooked in the game and that is of whether to take first turn.

i haven't seen any other mention to it on these boards but feel free to point it out if this has already been discussed.

As I am not exactly a brilliant general I thought I'd put up my own thoughts and then see what others opinions are.

Whoever is lucky enough to win the roll off will often be tempted to take first turn.
Why?
You get to start moving your models around and zapping your enemies before they can even move. You get to take the initiative per se.
However I have noticed this isn't always as good as it first appears though this changes markedly under different situations which i will look at sepately in turn.

Before I begin I will be considering that you have a fairly balanced Dark Elf army containing something along the lines of
Lord
BSB
2x Lv 2's
Spearblock
1-2 Units of crossbows
2 units of 5 Dark Riders
2 units of 5 Harpies
5 Knights
5 Shades
Chariot
14 Black guard- ASF
2 bolties
Hydra

Obviously many lists deviate wildly from this and for some other principles must be taken into account. This is a good start though as it has a bit of everything.

Situation 1.
An all cavalry army
-Brettonians, though can also include variations of Empire, High Elf, Dark Elf, Orcs and Chaos lists.
All of these lists have extremely long march moves of around 14".
This means if you take first turn and charge straight forward in their first turn they will already be able to charge. When playing Knights you do NOT want to let this happen.

If you let the knights instead have first turn then in your own first turn your shooting will be markedly more effective as you won't need to move and they will be in close range.

This also allows you to go last. Which in all cases is great for allowing your units to rally, claim table quarters and to move into situations where the enemy would normally smash you in his turn, i.e directly in front of Knight units.

Situation 2. Gunline Armies
- these can come in several forms with slight differences. The most notorious are Dwarves, Empire and to a lesser degree elves of all kinds and even Skaven and goblins.

In this case taking first turn is good to get your troops as close as possible to the enemy. Remember though that troops with 24" weapons start the game "out of range" and hence must move in order to shoot first turn. If these are gunpowder weapons than they cannot move and shoot. Thus giving up first turn may prevent these units from shooting and even convince them to move closer towards your troops rather than standing and firing.

Note this does not apply to Wood Elf and High Elf longbows. In this case you need to move asap so you can start shooting at them. It may even be a good idea to simply march forwards full speed as hitting on 6's is not very effective anyway.

Situation 3 Balanced Armies
-Just about anything really.
In these sort of battles I think there are many merits in actually going second.
For one the enemy will move towards you meaning in your own turn your archers don't need to move and can possibly shoot at close range as well.
Similarly your magic is more likely to be in range.
From watching your opponents first move you can also gauge how they are going to play. Are they being offensive or defensive. Are they going to go around one side of a building or another. How are they making use of terrain? Generally being reactionary isn't good but it has its uses.

Finally going second allows you to have the last turn. Which is vital for securing last minute objectives , causing units to flee which can't then rally and being able to hopefully rally all your own troops.

Of course this isn't failsafe. Some games your opponent will go first and obliterate your troops in a hail of magic and arrows before you get to move but i think in general it can be good to take it a bit slower before plunging forwards.

Hope this is helpful and feel free to say i am completely out of my mind.

[Professor goodvibes]

I was thinking about this the last game I played......

-I'd like to take the side that the 2nd turn is better in most cases. Not only from what was mentioned above, but if both players have artillery, then that would make it easier for the second player's guess ranges.

-Another benefit of going second is the opportunity to set up last turn combo charges that the opponent will have no answer for and thus netting those precious points.

-Letting the opponent take the first turn also allows for the him to make early mistakes in his first movement phase, which can affect the rest of the game, and effectively allows you to gauge if you will be able to largely ignore a unit because of this, or make immediate countermeasures.

- As far as scouts and flyers go, if the opponent moves first then the scouts and flyers are already in range to divert or march-block the opponent, effectively wasting their first two movement phases.

-By in large, I believe whom ever goes first largely wastes that turn and it favors only the lucky, which can't be predicted anyways.

[Tethlis]

I think that's a good summary of first turn versus second turn. I only opt for first turn under the following circumstances:

1) I'm facing overwhelming shooting or magic, and want to close the distance as soon as I can.

2) There's been a mistake during deployment, either my own or my enemy, and I want to capitalize on it. Perhaps I left a Hydra or Dragonlord staring down a battery of enemy cannons, or a number of enemy units are outside their general's Leadership range and I can force some Turn 1 Panic and Terror tests.

The aforementioned situations are pretty rare though, and the vast majority of the time I opt to go second. Being able to rally fleeing troops, make a last-minute grab at table quarters, or charge/break/Panic/Terror an enemy who won't get a chance to rally is a tremendous advantage.

[The virgin forest]

First turn wins

I can't speak of much experience with 'ze darkies - they're still on the painting table, so haven't faced an opponent yet - but with my other armies, I find that going first is if not vital then at least a slight advantage. My woodies are able to diminish the casualties they will take from opposing shooting and take out key units like fast cav and artillery pieces. My WoC needs to take out anything that can threaten their knights, or even worse marchblock from turn 1 Its really only my VC, who couldn't care less whether to start turn 1 or 2 - aside from the marchblocking thing.

[Azure]

I like the first turn. My army is sorely lacking on shooting besides the 2 RBT's and the combination of 2 units of harpies, 2 units of dark riders, a manticore and a dark pegasus ready to charge when they only get 1 chance to shoot is full of win.

ALSO: In tournaments if it is a 2 hour game I always take first. Chances are you wont see the end of the game.

-Rex

[Bies]

TBH I decide based on who I'm playing and deployment. If it seems more advantagous to go first (i.e. I need to hide my Hydra/dragon from the cannon battery) I'll go first.

If I'm facing an army/opponent I think will move his units into charge range I'd opt for #2.

[Scyloc]

One thing to consider is also "Space". Or Area of control.

The person going first have the option to move aggressively forward, and control a large part of the gaming table. This will constrict the opponents movement options.

The person going second in such a situation have fewer tactical movement options, and will have to think much harder before electing to flee a charge, as a high flee roll can put him dangerously close to his own table edge.

Often a person going second against an aggressive moving 1st turner can end up in a situation where he/she has to clumb his units together and block each other trying to counter the fast moving threats which suddenly knock on his front door.

I agree with the poster that if you have a significant shooting portion of you army, and you not facing a fast moving army, that going 2nd seems the best option. And the last turn can be very decisive.

My experience though is that the game is usually decided by turn 6. But i favor the aggressive style.

[Auere]

I find that it is often worth it to take the first turn - especially if you have alot of magic. Dark Elves are an agressive force and you need to put pressure on the opponent right from the start!

I think that the biggest advantage of going last is that you can rally fleeing troops at the end of the battle! But usually I massacre my opponents by turn 5, so it is not really needed. With less agressive armies, rallying in the last turn can really save the game.

[Calisson]

Take terrain in consideration.
If there is a building near the deployment area, you're better moving your RXBmen inside and shoot than receive a shoot first.
If there is a building in the middle of the deployment zone, letting someone move next to it prevents the other one to enter it (because you can't leave anyone at 1" of a foe and a unit inside a building is supposed to occupy the full base of the building).

Also, if there is a monument, moving first may grant you the monument's benefits, while moving second, you may just deny the benefits to your opponent (but 1 turn late).


If your strategy versus your specific opponent will be pts denial, then moving last is certainly the best. the last move allows also to move all your shooters / casters in a final move, send their missiles and fear no retaliation.


If your opponent has a lot of move-OR-shoot at 24", let him start.
If both your opponent and yourself are happy to go in melee, let him start and enter the dangerous zone first.



If your opponent has some flying monsters and you have RBTs, shoot before they move.

[Thanatoz]

Disagree with second turn versus an all cav army. If they march straight forward, you'll have one turn to retaliate before they're on your throat. If you instead take the first turn, you can swarm out your encircling fast cav and harpies, march blocking them from at least the second turn. Also, you can position your units to set up counter charges/overrun paths. In any case, don't surge forward full throttle.

Take the modifier on shooting for turn 1. At least you'll be able to shoot again turn 2. If knights move halfway the table first turn, you're room to manouvre is significantly decreased. Just like in chess, when the knights hold the middle field, they have lots of control over your movement. Something DE don't want.

Also, versus 14" charging knights, moving 9" forward is really fun.

[Bies]

on the cav I believe you're right, 1st turn to disperse and disrupt his movement. An all cav bret army will simply point at your units and rush forward keeping out of your charge range while making sure you stay within his.

It's happened to me on more then 1 occasion and breaking out of such an attack can be very difficult.

that said I'd go T2 if i had a choice based on what I said above and other posters.

T6 allows you to nab final VPs and finish off 1/2 wound units, cause panic with no chance of rally (hence destroy) units. Many games usually wind up around t4/5 but at least having the last turn lets you make a grab for as many VPs as possible left remaining to you.

[Maldor]

I generally like to take the second turn. Nothing is worse than finding yourself on the receiving end of a charge you know you will lose and not have the ability to flee the charge and rally. Taking the second turn not only gives you a last round of rally attempts, but also gives you the ability to force your opponent to take a charge they'd normally flee from in the last turn.

[Gruff]

It depends on specifics, as has been mentioned, but 75% of the time at least I'll go first. This lets you take the initiative and set up the beginning of the game to your advantage. You get a solid chance to eliminate a couple of units of fast cav, archers, etc. before they get a chance to do anything. That lets you control movement from the beginning of the game, and IMHO, movement is the most important phase of the game.

That being said, the last game I played my opponent panicked the unit that my Supreme Sorceress general was in at the bottom of turn six, creating a ~500 pt swing, which turned a solid victory into a marginal victory. So, there's obvious pros and cons.

[Dalamar]

Unless the enemy has a strong ability to decimate my forces from 24" range, I opt for going second.
Or deploy at the back of the table and go second anyway

[Grimma]

I prefer second for 2 reasons - If I take first turn my RXB shooting and magic missiles are generally all out of range and I have therefore missed out on 2 phases that are important for Dark Elves. If you are making the last turn of the game you get free reign to move units where you like eg. put a unit of dark riders into charge range of something big and nasty to contest a board quarter.

There are situations where you would want to go first of course - and Calisson has covered most of them. I played a Dwarf Army on the weekend, rolled up Unseen Lerker and chose to go first. That allowed me to charge first turn into an Organ Gun and kill it.