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Crone Hellebron question 
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Highborn

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:19 pm
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Location: Canberra, Australia
I`m thinking of trying Crone Hellebron in a 3000 pt. game vs. WoC.

The question I have is - In Crone Hellebron`s description it states : She may accompany a Cauldron of Blood. There is no entry for this in her entry in the army list, points cost etc.

Does this mean Hellebron effectively joins the CoB like joining another unit ? If so, does she gain the 4+ Ward Save like the Attendants ? Additionally, is she able to leave the CoB and rejoin it as she wishes ? For example Charge out of the CoB then return to it after CC ?

If accompany means that Hellebron takes the place of the Death Hag, wouldn`t she then pay the 200 pts. for the CoB ?

Or, does accompany mean that Hellebron simply joins the CoB, may come and go as she wishes, but gets no benefits from it such as Ward Save, War Machine (randomised shooting etc.), or otherwise.

Also, has anyone had any positive experiences of fielding Hellebron in their games ? If so, what are they ? If not, why not ?

Hellebron is very expensive, especially on a Manti. Apart from if she gains a 4+WS from the CoB, there seems to be no way of giving her any sort of save apart from riding the Manticore (randomised against shooting between her and the Manti). I like the carnage potential of fielding her, but fear losing a mass of points in an unfavourable combat.

I see fielding Hellebron as quite a stress actually. She is super killy, BUT super fragile. Kinda encompasses all it means to be a Dark Elf plus !

Any thoughts/feedback ?

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Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:05 am
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Beastmaster
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I totall agree with the risks of taking her, but the super killy thing is just me! I dont actually know about the CoB, but the tactical aspect i would much more want to field her in a WE unit.. And then run with CoB blessings..

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Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:08 am
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There is no reason why any Khainite character can't join a CoB.

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Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:39 am
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Quote:
If accompany means that Hellebron takes the place of the Death Hag, wouldn`t she then pay the 200 pts. for the CoB ?

Or, does accompany mean that Hellebron simply joins the CoB, may come and go as she wishes, but gets no benefits from it such as Ward Save, War Machine (randomised shooting etc.), or otherwise.


I always interpreted it to mean that she could be fielded with a cauldron of blood and would benefit from all its benefits (4+ ward save etc) but that she could come and go as she pleased (losing its benefits when she left it). You would still need to purchase a standard death hag and cauldron of blood (200 points).

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Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:25 pm
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Joining the Cauldron definintely does NOT grant Hellebron a 4+ ward save, only further randomization from shooting and magic.


Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:09 pm
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Hellebron should stand in a unit of ASFing Black Guards (yes, it's unfluffy as all h*ll but that's the best place for her to be.)

Failing that any unit of ASFing Witch Elves or Executioners should work pretty well - you just need a BSB with the ASFbanner in the same unit and suddenly you have a very frail and very expensive unit.

She is the most fragile glass cannon in the history of WFB, and as such she should not (imo) be on a Manticore. It's also pretty stupid to put her in a CoB since it really doesn't give her any benefit (She's not a attendant, so no 4+ wardsave). It just forces her to frenzycharge things that got to close - alone

Quote:
If accompany means that Hellebron takes the place of the Death Hag, wouldn`t she then pay the 200 pts. for the CoB ?


Even if this was the case then it's a massive waste of Hellebron, since the CoB can't charge nor pursue.


Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:36 am
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Cold One Knight

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So, i can take a cauldron BSB with ASF banner, and then join Hellebron in....... not bad i think i'll give it atry


Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:47 pm
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Bad idéa.
You can't charge anyone and your opponent would be really stupid to even consider charing a Ld10 Stubborn ASFing unit of death.


Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:01 pm
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Highborn

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:19 pm
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Thanks for the responses folks.

Seems to be a bit of contention amongst the D.net community on this one.

Red seems to think that Hellebron gets the best of both worlds...ie: may join the CoB, come and go as she wishes, AND also get the 4+ Ward Save while she accompanies the CoB. Hmmm. I like this set up, but my gut tells me that it`s too good to be true.

SilverHeimdall is convinced that Hellebron does NOT get the 4+ Ward Save under any circumstances, only randomisation vs. Shooting and Magic.

Minsc. I am aware of the rules regarding Characters with Frenzy joining Units, as I am aware of the incredible fragility of Hellebron in or out of a unit. Thanks anyway. I disagree that a Character joining a CoB cannot Charge anyone. If the Character simply JOINS the CoB, and does not gain any benefits from doing so, then it stands to reason that they are not bound by the restrictions of the CoB such as not being able to leave the unit.

Rabidnid. That makes sense. The CoB IS a unit after all, and by this definition, yes, any Khainite Character can join a CoB. I`m just thinking of any possible benefits for a Character doing so.

After re-reading the relevant sections in the Army Book and the Rulebook, I have come to the following conclusions:

In the case of the Army Book stating that Hellebron may accompany a CoB, I interprate accompany the Unit(CoB) as join the Unit(CoB). Therefore the rules pertaining to Characters joining a Unit apply. That means that Hellebron joins the CoB IN ADDITION to the Death Hag and other Attendants, as opposed to REPLACING the Death Hag. Also, Hellebron may leave and rejoin the CoB as she wishes, INCLUDING Charging out of the unit, (as any other Character may Charge out of any other unit). Whilst Hellebron accompanies a CoB, she DOES NOT gain any benefits from doing so such as a 4+ Ward Save and Magic Resistance(1). Hits from Shooting and Magic directed at the CoB are randomised between the Attendants and Hellebron.

The only discrepancy I see with the above conclusion, is that Hellebron gains the randomisation vs. Shooting and Magic benefit from the War Machine rules pertaining to the CoB, but DOES NOT gain the benefits from the Ward Save and Magic Resistance that also pertain to the CoB. I suppose one way of looking at it is that Hellebron does not gain ANY benefits from ANY of the rules pertaining to the CoB, BUT she gets the randomisation vs. Shooting and Magic benefit due to her being a Character that has joined a unit with less than 5 Unit Strength.

So by this interpretation, Hellebron gains no benefits from joining a CoB apart from the normal randomisation vs. Shooting and Magic. She may also leave, rejoin, and Charge out of the Cob as she wishes.

Seem fair ? I think so.

My question doesn`t really have any great implications on game play at all, I was just curious as to the exact interpretation of Hellebron accompanying the CoB.

I totally agree with Minsc that Hellebron is the biggest glass cannon in the history of Warhammer,(or at least one of them...). With this in mind, I plan to employ her in the following way in my army when I take on my buddies WoC in a 3000 pt. pitched battle:

Yes, the old girl IS a big glass cannon. This is why I wouldn`t consider fielding her against an army with alot of Shooting. Fortunately my buddies WoC army has no Shooting (no, not even a Hell Cannon!...). He does however, have Magic. I`m confidant of Hellebron surviving his Magic phase with a combination of my armies Dispel Dice pool, Dispel Scrolls, and Hellebrons Amulet of Fire(Dispels the FIRST spell cast at Hellebron and/or the unit she may have joined in any Magic Phase on a 4+ after all other Dispel attempts). If there are any devastating spells launched at Hellebron(or her unit if she has joined one), I`ll try and dispel them with Dispel Dice as per standard operating procedure, and then, as a last resort, use the Amulet of Fire if required (and hope I roll a 4+ !). If a second devastating spell is launched at her in the same Magic Phase(unable to use the Amulet of Fire against this one), then it`ll be just down to Dispel Dice. Obviously if the Spell is too terrifying to contemplate (that damn Infernal Gateway!...), then out comes the Scrolls.

As far as Close Combat is concerned, I`m quietly confidant of Hellebron doing some serious damage. The thought of mounting her on a Manticore vs. a WoC army is very tempting, but it is a 550 point sink, and more importantly, I haven`t finished my Hellebron on a Manticore conversion yet ! So on foot it`ll be. I`m actually not that concerned about Hellebrons lack of Armour Save. Against a WoC army with majority S4,S5,S6,S7(and it goes on !...) hits coming my way, I generally accept that my Units wont have an Armour Save AT ALL unless it`s my COK`s or COC`s. I will probably have Hellebron join my Black Guard Unit with ASF Banner(yes I KNOW...It`s getting old isn`t it...but it`s just TOOO damn effective !...), and launch them at the enemy. The CoB blessings will make the Unit a nightmare to deal with, and if neccesary, I can always give them the Bloodshield of Khaine for the 5+ Ward Save. There`s also the fluffy option of putting her in with my Executioners. They would also hit damn hard, but I`ll have to ensure they get the Charge as they don`t have ASF. I suppose there`s the Death Hag BSB option with the SoHG, but I`m not going there at this stage.

Anyway. Thanks again for the feedback, and unless someone has some great words of wisdom or official rulings on my interpretation of the question I posed, then I`ll go with my conclusions.

Naggarothii unto death !!!

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Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:32 am
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Corsair
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As you mention, there is a sentence "Hellebron may accompagy a CoB" p.66.
Why is there such sentence?
Hellebron is a Khainite character, the COB is a Khainite warmachine with two champions and one built-in character.
Any Khainite unit can be joined by any Khainite character.
This sentence is not necessary if the meaning was just that she could "join" the CoB: Shadowblade and any assassin may join any CoB an don't have this sentence.

So, of course, she can join a CoB, and leave it again, of course missile hits would be randomized, and of course she would not become one of the guards of the CoB so she would not benefit from the 4+ws.



Note that it is written "accompagny", not "join".

Remember that Crone Hellebron is a Death Hag, she is the oldest of them (see her fluff). We cannot compare to the Death Hag's bestiary as such bestiary does not exist (I just noticed today :roll: ). We have only the DH entry p.93 to compare.

My interpretation is that the word "accompagny", which is part of the official rule under "equipment" means just that she can take a COB as an equipment, which means as a "mount".
Unfortunately, the option is not written again in p.66 with the price tag, so we are left to suppose that she would just do it like an ordinary Death Hag, despite Hellebron being a Lord choice.
I would understand that Hellebron can select to pay 110 pts and replace the DH of a CoB, benefit from the 4+ws and be prevented to leave the CoB for the whole battle.


After this rule interpretation attempt, I'd like to examine the tactical benefits of getting Hellebron as a crew of a COB.
Hellebron's CoB moves as slowly as a CoB, causes terror like a CoB and cannot charge anything as a CoB. The biggest influence it may have is the COB blessing, as a regular CoB. Hellebron may be the general, like an ordinary COB DH but with +1 Ld increase and getting WE as core.
In shooting, you just get one more wound to the crew.
If ever the opponent chooses to be so kind as to charge the terror-causing CoB, then it becomes a fiercer foe than a normal CoB.
And you paid 460pts instead of 200 pts.

Overall the opponent has just to ignore the CoB altogether, it cannot harm him directly.



Conclusion:
IMO, the rule allows Crone Hellebron to join a CoB because she is a DH, after all, and it would seem strange that she could not.
But tactically, this is obviously insane, to the point that the army book designer did not include the option with the price tag, or at least did not noticed it as missing.

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Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:20 pm
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Calisson wrote:
Conclusion:
IMO, the rule allows Crone Hellebron to join a CoB because she is a DH, after all, and it would seem strange that she could not.
But tactically, this is obviously insane, to the point that the army book designer did not include the option with the price tag, or at least did not noticed it as missing.

This.

Can't get much clearer than that!

Victor was pretty much on the dot with his conclusions as well, except she'll still get MR from joining the Cauldron because she'd be part of the unit (since MR affects the whole unit and not the models).


Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:43 pm
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Highborn

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Cheers Calisson. Clear as ever (as you always are).

I concur with you on all the above points, except that although the IMPLICATION and FLUFF suggest that Hellebron SHOULD be able to pay the points for a CoB as a mount, it does not state it to be so in the Army Book. Therefore - no Hellebron mounted on a CoB. Boo Hoo. What a waste of points, as you say !

So, I`ll just go with the covering Khainite rule that Hellebron can join and leave the CoB at will as all Khainite characters may do, without gaining any benefits apart from the unit affecting MR.

It`s just GW being ambiguous as per normal by including anomalies like `accompany` instead of `join`. And again, as you say, there was no need to even mention it, as the rules for joining units by Khainite characters are covered ANYWAY !

Desert Icon. Glad you agree. I think we`ve just about covered this one...anyone got any earth shattering opinions to add ?

I think I`ll just get on with visiting the Druchii bloodstorm on my hapless WoC oponent tomorrow night.

Cheers again to all who have offered their two bobs worth.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:13 am
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Well, since we're talking about possible uses of Crone Hellebron and a Cauldron of Blood, I knocked up an army.

My excuses if this is considered off-topic, I however find not since we're talking about Crone Hellebron and the oh so nice question of "why join her with a Cauldron? that's insane!".

It's not insane when she can join the Cauldron and can charge out. Take a look at the following army (it's not optimized, but you'll get the idea).

Crone Hellebron 350
Cauldron of Blood BSB with Banner of Nagarythe 350
Assassin AHW, RS, MB 151
Assassin AHW, RS, MB 151
Master DS, ROH, Ha, Sh, Lance, Cloak of Hag Graef 169*
Pair of Repeater Handbows
*points guessed, don't know how much the handbows cost
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50
5 WE 50

5 Hrps 55
5 Hrps 55

5 Sh GW 90
5 Sh GW 90
5 Sh GW 90
5 Sh GW 90

Hydra 175
Hydra 175

It totals up to approximatelty 2490 points, with 87 models, of which 50 witches, 10 harpies and 20 shades.

Banner of Nagarythe gives +1 to each friendly unit in combat in 12". Both Rending Star assassins and Crone join the COB, becoming unbreakable. They should be screened by shooting by the dual hydras, the harpies, or some witches.

They can annoy at range with 6 manbane rending stars. Ignore that, opponent! Even better, because both assassins and Crone can charge out of the cauldron (even must in case of crone), they can mince through units on their own, and for each character get +1 to combat resolution.

I don't know if it's optimal or not, and it has weaknesses, but it's a sort of mini death star. All shooting is randomized, which makes it harder to actually kill something. One could probably exchange 10 witches for 10 harpies for more fast hunting.

The hydras and the shades with GW provide the muscle, and if that shouldn't be enough, Hellebron will be sure to take care of it.

The ring of hotek master is there because I'm addicted to it in no magic lists (a pegasi would fit better, but I don't want to sacrifice some witches for it), but those who feel comfortable without magic defense can take another 15 harpies or witches instead. A scroll caddy with the ring and a scroll would also work (name her priestess of khaine). To bad those can't join the cauldron.

The army has obvious flaws, but I saw a nice combination with Cauldron, Banner of Nagarythe, Crone and core witches. The hero combination is pretty expensive (especially with the assassins, so it's only valid in larger games).

Thoughts?


Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:44 pm
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