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D.R.A.I.C.H.Dwarf tactica, how to open tough, tin cans 
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Dark Rider
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:48 pm
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In order to push myself a bit harder I've decided to post some of the article already,but it takes time to write it and then edit it to fit on this forum with all the shiny colors

Therefore please be patient

D.R.A.I.C.H. Dwarf tactica, how to open tough, iron strong, tin cans?

Greetings fellow druchii,

The following article is all about dwarves,
what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are and of course how to exploit them. At the end of this article you will have enough knowledge to slaughter these little tin cans

Contents.

(If you use the key combination ctrl + f , you can search for each number in front of that part or subpart)

[1.0] Strengths
-----[1.1] Tough
-----[1.2] Shooting
-----[1.3] Close combat
-----[1.4] Anti magic
[2.0] Weaknesses
-----[2.1] Movement
-----[2.2] Line of sight
-----[2.3] Magic
[3.0] Tactics
-----[3.1] Units
----------[3.11] Core
----------[3.12] Special
----------[3.13] Rare
----------[3.14] Cauldron of blood
-----[3.2] Making a general list ( coming soon )
-----[3.3] Specific dwarf things and how to counter
----------[3.31] Anvil of Doom


Strengths. [1.0]

First we’ll handle the strengths, because we need to know what to look out for and what we most likely will face on the battlefield.

1) Tough
2) Shooting
3) Close combat
4) anti magic

1) Tough. [1.1]

Dwarves are tough, not only because every dwarf has a minimum of toughness 4, but also for their armour. Core troops have T4 and a 3+ AS in close combat for only 9 points, that means not as expandable as our spear elves, but they can take a punch. Even their shooting units have a 4+ close combat armour save.

If you think that is bad, look at their specials and heroes: Iron breakers have a 2+ AS in close combat and the thanes (standard fighting heroes) can go even further down to, for example, create a sickening unkillable bsb: T5 and a 4+ AS. That is standard, now imagine 4 pages of nasty runes to take 75 worth of points from! Or one of the 13 runes for the battle standard.


2) Shooting. [1.2]


Dwarves are (in)famous for their insanely strong gunlines, being T4 and having a 4+AS means that they are very resilient. S4 AP bullets hurt as hell especially when they hit pretty good with a BS 3 and +1 to hit. A minor drawback for them however is the rule : move-or-fire, which is self explanatory. There are also crossbowmen but they are S4 no AP and no +1 to hit so mostly you will see the thunderers. (although some prefer them because of the 30’’ range over the 24’’)

So far so good, but now the real pain comes: Warmachines and if that isn’t already enough, they can also rune them up to create more reliable, more accurate and stronger ones. No chariot is safe with a S7 bolt thrower around. Those same bolt thrower can be given flaming attacks for only 5 points to burn away your no longer regenerating hydra. You will be horrified when the cannons of an experienced dwarf player decimates your whole battle line.
And when one finally misfires he simply reveals that he has a rune to reroll misfires. Or that he automatically gets a 6 on the misfire chart, and so on. I have told you about the standard shooting and warmachines, now comes the real threat…. The Organ gun, the bane of every enemy. This thing is very very lethal as it can at max spit out 10 autohit S5 -3 AS shots A.K.A almost 10 dead elves, of course this is the max. he can also throw a 2 on the artillery dice and then you’re happy….or not, no because they decided to give it the following rule:

Whenever you fire the organ gun you may re-roll it if you didn’t score a misfire…
So the 2 can turn easily into an 8 or a 10 or a misfire of course, but then it automatically gives you a 6 on the misfire chart.

The organ gun is like our hydra: a very powerful tool for a very cheap price (only 120 points)

So I’ll say it again because you can’t stress this enough: beware the organ gun!


3) Close combat [1.3]

Ingredients of a dwarf combat unit:

Tough and strong dwarfs.
Nice shiny armours and shields.
Big ass axes and hammers to chop some heads off or simply crush them.

You really don’t want to battle S4 T4 3+AS stubborn dwarves (hammerers) or for the same price another unit with 2+ AS and no stubborn.(ironbreakers) These are of course without a standard: they can get fear, magic resistance, +1 CR etc.

Or maybe some Slayers, these have no armour, but they are unbreakable. Funny name actually, slayers…. I wonder why they are named like this, any guesses?


4)Anti magic [1.4]

As they already have such strong shooting and CC phases we’re lucky that they have no magic, or aren’t we?

Instead of 2 dispel and 2 power die, dwarves have 4 dispel die, this makes them already more magic resistant than any other army for free, furthermore any runesmith/runelord adds another 1/2 dispel dice. In a 2K+ game, if a runelord take an anvil of doom(which he will), the basis dispel pool will be 7 dice ( as the anvil adds another one), this is without any nasty runes of the 150 points allowance. Some examples:

Master rune of balance.
Takes a power die from the enemy and converts it in a dispel die for the dwarf player
(very sick rune….)

Rune of spell breaking
Same as a dispel scroll.

Master rune of spellbinding
+1 to dispel attempts

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Last edited by Gramash on Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:42 am, edited 7 times in total.



Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:39 am
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Weaknesses [2.0]

Now those stunties seem like small demigods, but all have weaknesses. And we couldn’t call ourselves real druchii if we didn’t exploit these, but later about that in the tactics section

1) Movement
2) Line of sight
3) Magic


1) Movement [2.1]

As you all (should) know: dwarves are small, have small legs and therefore are slow.
( represented by I2 and M3)The biggest weakness of dwarves is movement or rather the lack of it. With the exeption of only one unit (the gyrocopter), dwarves move at max 6’’. The only upside however, is that they can always make a march move, even when there are enemies nearby.(it’s a special race rule which is called ‘relentless’) Another special race rule is the following rule: dwarves flee and pursue with 2D6 -1 (not gyrocopters). Many players(even dwarf veterans) tend to forget this rule, and it will save your life when you throw the same value for flee and pursue, or the other way around, will doom his life because they didn’t flee far enough. Of course, this is a minor thing, but still, even if it can safe only one unit from certain doom, it was worth the small effort to remember this.

DO NOT EVER TRY TO MARCH BLOCK DWARVES!

In case you didn’t take the hassle to read all this text above, because you already know everything about them, or just slit over it: please heed my words. If you didn’t know, please remember for all time: dwarfs can’t be march blocked. If you did know, good then you can call me whatever you want, that I’m a noob to think anyone would ever not know about this rule, but seriously guys I saw enough opponents trying to march block my dwarves. ( yes I did play them for a year, read my signature ) And each and every time their big smiles on their faces, declaring I had only 3’’ movement left, were washed away when I showed them page 28 of my army book.


2) Line of sight [2.2]

With their small movement in mind, another weakness of dwarves is the need of line of sight. Having a strong fire base means nothing if you can’t see you opponent, normally not a realy big problem if you can just move 5’’ and then shoot with a small modifier, but dwarfs can’t move and shoot, so if you’re on the flank of a thunderers unit, there’s no way he can shoot you with them, because turning means moving and then he can’t shoot ( already see a tactic coming?). Warmachines are even worse, thunderers can decide not to shoot and move 6’’, but warmachines can only move 3’’,never more not even with a rune or something.(he can choose to waste his avil of doom strike to get them to move another 3’’ in their shooting phase, but that’s rarely done)

The point is that you can count on a stationary firebase, from which the line of sight is always the same. ( not like our dark riders who can get a whopping 42’’ shooting range, which is almost never blocked by line of sight)


3) magic [2.3]

‘double you tee ef mate’ ,will you say,’ you just pointed out that these stunties are awesome anti magic dudes, are you mental?’

Yes I did say they’re a good anti magic race (one of the best, okay then…the best), but that is in a sense also their weakness, if you choose not to have magic, any magic defence he has is wasted!. On the other side, most dwarf players wont go for max magic defence because he thinks 7 dispel die are enough, but if you go max magic, you can break his defence.

As always magic is risky, but even more with dwarves. It’s all or nothing: no middle mode.
Of course, if you want to battle more than only dwarves with your list, the least you need is a scroll caddy or go max anyway, because our magic is strong, very strong

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Last edited by Gramash on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:40 am
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Dark Rider
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Tactics [3.0]

‘Finally, this guy gets to the point’. Well… not really because before I get to the final part of how to beat them, I want you to ask yourself this: ‘why did he take the hassle to sum up all the strengths and weaknesses of the dwarves? This could have been a (little weird written) dwarf guide.’

And then come up with this answer: ‘because he wants me to think of some tactics for myself’

Because that’s what makes this a fun game in my humble opinion to think of the best way to beat your opponent. Of course I’ll do my best to help you guys and give you good information and tactics, but I wont and can’t give you an always winning list. Would you really feel good about yourself to have to say to your friend:

‘How did I massacre you? Oh easy, some random dude on the internet told me exactly what armylist to take, where to deploy everything on the table, how to set the terrain pieces and what unit kills what dwarf unit, you had no chance from the beginning, sorry man’.

I don’t think that’s a fun game to play so please read the following, to guide you in making your own tactics and to sharpen your knowledge about what it takes to bring home some small strong slaves

Units [3.1]

First I will cover all our units, because there are quite a few who will need special knowledge to be able to take on these dwarves

Keep in mind that the comments and scores are for dwarves, against other armies some of the now useless units can do wonders.(like chariots) So please, if you have to kill other armies as well you will need to make other choices

Core [3.11]

Warriors

they are cheap and thus expendable, but against dwarves that’s not enough.
There is no way these elves could stand up against dwarves, they simply can’t kill them. There are only 2 reasons to take these and they are weak reasons the first would be SCR , but with T3 and a 5+ AS ( which against dwarf shooting is no save) these guys will need a lot of manpower to keep their ranks after a few rounds of shooting

The second would be screening, harpies are a much better choice, but some prefer the extra models because then you would need more casualties to panic. However, ten thunderer shots mean statistically about 3 casualties from which they panic anyway.
and then if they break, the screened unit will also have to make a panic test.

1/5 weak chance for SCR


Crossbowmen

You will need a lot of shots for these guys to work, let me do the math for you:

10 rxbmen shooting on standard dwarf core infantry
20 multi shots, long range = -2 modifier means a 5+ to hit so 6.7 shots hit,. S3 T4 means 5+ again means 2.2 shots wound 4+AS -1 for AP so a 5+ save roll, that means you will statistically do 1 wound per 20 shots. You won’t win the match with that

2/5 You can choose to take them. If you do, take a lot and don’t expect too much,
there are better choices


Harpies

Finally some really useful core choice, not for killing(not at all…) but for screening.55 points for a flying, non panic causing at your other troops, screening unit and you can take an unlimited amount of them. Trust me you will need these, remember what I told about line of sight? These beasts can effectively negate 1 round of shooting from one unit(or 2 if you’re lucky). Take 1 or 2 units for important units you want to screen. Remember that you should always use terrain to take cover if you can, because terrain is even cheaper :P .

5/5 A must have. Use these as movable cover. And of course for all the other uses you have for these girls.



Dark riders

18’’ movement, and a s4 charge makes these horses a very good flanker, if you don’t have another hammer nearby

A flank charge from these can give you: 1CR for flank (or rear charge=2CR), and will negate the rank bonus from the dwarves which can give you a difference of 4CR that’s a lot. I didn’t even count the possible 1 or 2 kills they can additionally make.

Don’t bother with shields, because a 5+ save is against almost everything, except the lowest core dwarfs, no save. You can choose rxb’s but 10 shots only have a chance of making about half a kill so that means if you’re lucky you can make a kill in your shooting phase, but for 5 points a piece it’s not worth it

These guys are pretty vulnerable, so watch out for heavy shooting, but for only 85 points you have 5 of them( some prefer more (like 7 or 8 ) to count for a few casualties from shooting and less chance to panic, but that’s up to your own preference)
And that’s cheap enough to be fairly expendable

4/5 vulnerable, but swift and can make or break a combat.
Take these to fill your mandatory core choices


Corsairs

Normally these guys are pretty good with the ss standard, but S3 hits wont really hurt dwarfs and these are not even armour piercing so you’ll need even more attacks than the rxb’s to kill a few.

Some people like these because the have sea dragon cloaks and therefore have a better armour save, but a 4+ save with a -2 modifier still is only a 6+AS which is not much

only if you are prepared to spend quite a few points on the full ranks (21-28 models) ,take the sss and give them KB from the cauldron they can stand and fight.( you still need to avoid getting shot and get the charge tough )

3/5 (4/5 with Cauldron)much better than warriors, because they have a lot more attacks, but still not the best choice against dwarves.


Summary for core:

The best core choices are (naked)dark riders and harpy’s. these 2 units are used only as support units. You should really take these, but as I said earlier you must make your own decisions, I only give advice.

Next comes corsairs with 21 rerollable S3 attacks you might kill some, and if you take a lot you might even win combat, but there are better special choices to kill dwarves.

Rxb men and warriors are just not up for the task. You shouldn’t take them, unless you take an awful lot of them, just want a challenge or because of your fluff ( the story behind your army, if you have one :P ). And that’s important: you shouldn’t forsake your fluff just to kill some dwarves.


Special [3.12]

Witch elves
Witch elves are normally a fine addition to your army, but against dwarves they will have a tough time. Poison will be helpful to bypass the toughness of the dwarves, but their armour saves can and will be a major problem.

A cauldron of blood nearby is always handy for the stubborn rule, with the cauldron witch elves will become marginally better in handling the dwarves, although it sometimes is better to give your blessing to another unit

2/5 (4/5 if a Cauldron is nearby)certainly not the best special choice, but with a cauldron and a big unit and a nice hag or a fluffy khainite army it can certainly be a reasonable addition


Shades

These guys are a very good addition to your army regardless of your opponent. Against dwarves they are a really good choice if you take the great weapons. Pretty good to kill warmachine crew, don’t bother with the armour upgrade or the bloodshade, neither would really help.

7 shades with great weapons and scouting in a forest near some bolt throwers are a very good choice (beware the organ gun though they wont live very long against a round of shooting from that thing) For only 126 points it’s not even a big disaster if they die.

4/5 you should really try to field these, even as a diversion they can be very handy.
With great weapons and a cauldron they can be a very effective hammer, keep that in mind: your opponent won’t expect that!

Executioners

Also a very good choice strength 6 is really helpful and their killing blow will be a real disaster for those stunties. Keep in mind that a cauldron will make them almost godlike if you can make that charge with an additional attack. Stubborn is always a nice bonus if you are tied in combat, because you fluffed your rolls, and are flank charged.

4/5 (5/5 with cauldron) if you take these, please consider taking a cauldron, because it will make them stubborn and a better can opener


Cold one knights
Possibly even better than executioners (if you don’t fluff your rolls for stupidity)
A combined charge from these and a flanking dark rider unit and all but his most uber unit will fall for you lances and spears. Again a cauldron of blood can really buff up the killing power, imagine what 10 S6 attacks can do…

Yes I said 10, not 11 because I find them best naked, because nobody will expect that his most feared enemy unit would only cost 135 points….. and with this point cost you can maybe even take 2 units to reduce the stupidity risk and have room for a cauldron

Another approach is taking 10 of them, so you have a chance of outnumbering him, and you all know what happens if you get outnumbered by a fear causing enemy right?
This is expensive however, and you really should worry about screening it, because only 1 bolt in your flank can ruin the fun.

5/5


Cold one chariots

Useless next.

No, I mean sorry chariot lovers ( are there any?) there are bound to be at least one or two bolt throwers with s7 in his list, maybe a cannon. There is no way this thing will survive. it takes a valuable special slot and 100 points for a small one round diversion...

1/5 really, just don’t take them against dwarves

Black guard
These guys are our best elite troops on foot, with 2 S4 attack a model you can finally kill some dwarves. Don’t bother with the Haeg Grief banner though, in general: if you get charged by dwarves, then it’s just some secret tactic or it’s just well…stupid(ity)

There are other useful banners, like the banner of murder ( AP ) or the standard of slaughter(+d3 CR on the charge), but the most useful buff for black guard is the cauldron of blood, because killing blow is godlike against dwarves.( when they have KB, AP is less useful, but still a nice add on. It's up to you to choose the standard which suits your game play

One drawback is the vulnerability, so make sure you are avoiding shooting or use a screen/terrain ( ward save from cauldron can save quite a few men from a certain death)

5/5 A very good addition against dwarves

summary for special:

it's very hard to choose the right ones here, because it really depends on your play style, fluff, and preference.But in my opinion Cok.black guard, executioners and shades are very good choices

Rare [3.13]

War hydras

We all know how cheap the hydra is. It’s a very good beast to take. One point of warning: your opponent will want too shoot it down as fast as possible. You have 2 choices: hide or take it, your hydra can take a punch, but not several bolts and a cannonball. Try to keep it out of sight from the big meanies, but draw the rest of the fire to the hydra.

4/5 A hydra is awesome but against dwarves, it will be very hard to use it’s full potential

Reaper bolt throwers

It will be hard to use, because it will also be a shooting magnet if you leave it in sight. And if you place them out of sight from the dwarves artillery, then you wont have any uses for it. however, it's one of the few counters against gyrocopters and the only shooting in our arsenal that has enough punch to kill dwarves reliably

3/5 It is a very hard tool to use against dwarves, because you’ll be outgunned. But if used wisely it can be a nice add on

summary for rare:

the hydra is the better choice, but both are strong and hard to play.


Cauldron of blood [3.14]

The Cauldron has become a sickening addition to our army, somewhat hard to use, but still a very powerful and game winning machine

I constantly said how the Cauldron makes a lot units very powerful. In this part I will explain which units and how in detail, because there is one problem: it’s very hard to give the right unit, at the right time, the right blessing. Sometimes it’s very clear what unit you want to give your blessing, but sometimes it’s hard. Will you give your black guard KB to charge the dwarf block, or do you give an extra attack to your flanking Cok, or do you give a wardsave to your big unit of executioners in line of sight of some bolt throwers and thunderers? This is as you can see a very situational subject and that’s why you’ll only really learn by playing a lot. I can however give some advice concerning what blessings to give what unit and to some extent in what order.


+1 attack

1-Executioners
You’ll get 15 KB str 6 hatred attacks… nuff said

2-Cold one knights
10 str 6 hatred attacks: a very good flank attack)
Remember that mounts are not affected

3-Black guard (AP)
22 str 4 AP hatred attacks

4-Shades
10 str 5 hatred attacks (GW) is also a nice flanker but keep in mind that they won’t negate the rank bonuses but still get the +1 CR

5-witch elves (AP)
29 str3 hatred attacks are bound to kill something, if you give manbane to the hag, you’re set

6- SSS corsairs
29 str 3 hatred attacks are bound to kill something(….déjàvu)

7-Dark riders
An often overlooked option: 10 str 4 hatred attacks can kill some dwarves an unexpected flanker


KB
1-Black guard
15 str 4 KB hatred attacks are very good

3-Witch elves
22 str 3 KB attacks are also very good

4-SSS Corsairs
22 str 3 KB attacks are very nice

5- Hydra
11 KB attacks are also a nice add to the fight

Wardsave
Any important unit in danger of being shot to pieces
A hard choice if you can also buff up your charge…..


If 2 units can charge pick the blessing for the unit who stands above the other and if they are on the same rank pick the unit with the extra attack

Please remember, this is a guideline, not the absolute rule. There are quite a few situations where you have to make your own decision, because even a simple standard makes all the difference in taking what blessing and when to give it.

As you can see we have quite a few options to choose from, maybe a bit too much, because it makes the choice pretty hard. Just make sure you always give a blessing and don’t forget it…. It happens trust me… ahem well try keep the cauldron within 12 inches of you khainite units, because stubborn is a real nice bonus and if you make the death hag the bsb there’s one more reason to keep it close.

In short the cauldron is very good and I’ll nearly say a must have.
If want to know more about the cauldron and how to use it, take a look at:

D.R.A.I.C.H. - Bathing the Druchii way: Cauldron Of Blood

It’s a very good article about the Cauldron

Making a general list


Specific Dwarf things and how to counter


The Anvil Of Doom

The Anvil of Doom is an upgrade that can be taken by a Runelord (lord choice) It costs a good chunk of points and takes a hero slot as well (similar to a dragon) The anvil gives the runelord a better armor save, and a couple dwarven guards. The anvil and the runelord are utterly immovable by anything, and the runelord will stay with the anvil until he dies. The anvil is Unbreakable. The anvil gives +1 DD, in addition to the +2 for having a runelord and +2 for simply being dwarves. The runelord can still take magic items including several anti-magic runes that can seriously mess up your magic phase. However, many dwarves forgo this option because they think that 7 DD is plenty.

The Power of the Anvil

The anvil's main attraction is its 3 magical powers that it can perform in the shooting phase. These abilities are undispellable. Only one can be performed per shooting phase, and not while the anvil is in combat. The ability takes effect on a 2+ for a normal invocation and a 4+ for an ancient invocation. If this roll is failed, the runelord rolls on a table similar to a warmachine mishap table, with 1 resulting in death.

The Abilities:

The Rune of Oath and Honor:

This ability allows one (non-gyrocopter) dwarf unit to make a move action (a march or charge)

When struck with ancient power, it allows d3 units to move.

The Rune of Hearth and Hold:

This ability lets all dwarves reroll failed fear and terror checks.

When struck with ancient power, it makes all dwarves immune to fear and terror and allows them to reroll failed panic and break tests. This lasts until the beginning of the dwarf's next shooting phase.

The Rune of Wrath and Ruin:

The nastiest ability the dwarves have, the rune of Wrath and Ruin makes a enemy unit suffer d6 S4 magical shooting hits. Regardless of any casualties inflicted(or not) the unit has its move characteristic halved for the following turn, fleeing or persuing at half speed as well. If the unit flies it merely cannot fly instead.

On ancient power, this effects d3 units doing 2d6 hits. The real kicker? This rune does not need LOS, or Range. The anvil can be parked in the farthest corner of the board behind a hill and every last one of his rock hard troops and still work perfectly.

Thorek Ironbrow

Thorek Ironbrow is one of the nastiest special characters around. He clocks in at 505 points, comes with superb armor, an extra helper, and is much better at striking runes. He can use the ancient power on a 3+ and rerolls failures, meaning he almost never fails. This allows for him to sling dozens of S4 hits around while slowing your approaching hoards down to a crawl while the rest of his gunline blasts them to bits. Thorek Gunline is infamous cheese because it is nasty, and is very common in the dwarven tournament scene because of the need to compete with DoC and VC.

My thanks to Runax for this piece about the anvil of doom (original post is found at page 2: 11th post in addition to some anti tactica)


One very important note about anvils:
lone characters are immune as long as they are not on a large target.
Too bad for dragon & Manti, however, Peggies are safe, and characters mounted on a DS or CO, or footed characters are safe if not inside a unit. The trouble is that it is the contrary to normal shooting, for which characters need to be inside a unit to get the "look out, Sir/Maa'm" rule.

As a consequence, very large units are needed to withstand both cannonballs and anvil spells without risking a panic test.

However, if you have the habit of playing small units, you need your character to remain inside and risk an anvil panic test or drop below the 5 R&F minimum for the "look out, Sir" while you are within cannon and other shooting LOS.
But if there is enough terrain to hide in/behind, your characters are safer alone.
Especially, your Level 4 with FF will be delighted to get quickly inside a wood, in which she will be out of any shooting LOS, away from gyro's reach, too small to risk any anvil damage and with a lot of time to see slow dwarfs coming to hunt her

Thanks to Calisson for this addition

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Last edited by Gramash on Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:51 am, edited 7 times in total.



Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:40 am
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placeholder

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:41 am
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Dark Rider
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Posts: 143
Location: somewhere......
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if you see any errors, or have any additions, please send a pm or post them here.

if it's a good add on i'll be happy to place it in the article.

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:30 am
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Im sorry, I fail to see how BG are better against Dwarves than Executioners... they wound on 4+ and then need to get past their normally rediculously high save with only a -1 modifier. On the other hand Executioners wound them on 2+ and get rid of most of their armour, or bypass it altogether with KB. Then with +1 attack from the COB is just nasty. And their biggest weakness (getting charged) is nullified because you are moving 4 inches more than them.

Oh, and they are cheaper XD

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Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:53 am
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Looking very promising! Actually I am completely in line with you on this one. Last time I played against dwarves, I ran something like:

Killy lord on dark steed
Cauldron BSB
Death Hag with BohG (with executioners)

3x5 DR (naked)
3x5 harpies
2x7 CoKs
Big unit of BG w BoM
Big unit of Exes

...more or less excactly the kind of list you propose, and I COMPLETELY tore him apart. He was more or less ready to concede after I moved up my first turn - there is simply NOTHING dwarves can do against this kind of list. The Dwarven infantry have no chance against these DE infantry and CoK units, when they can get cauldron blessings. His shooting was also gone by turn two.

The only thing that really annoyed me was the gyrocoptor! Any ideas on that one? I may included RBTs next time, just to take it out!


Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:54 am
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I would say armour piercing banner for Black Guard should be mentioned, it is by far the best choice, and deserves a mention more so then the Standard of Slaughter.

You also haven't mentioned so much dwarf opponents, you could mention miners and gyrocopter when talking about dwarf manouvrability.

Also, stress the importance of flank attacks as this reduce their two greatest attributes. Armour save and SCR. Never end up in a war of attrittion with dwarves!
Maybe give a heads up about the runestone in that regard as well :P


Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:56 am
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Corsairs with SSS put out a lot of hatred and frenzy fuelled attacks, combined with the KB blessing of the Cauldron, can really sting...


I'd like to see a piece about common rune combinations... (all them runes confuse the hell out of me...)

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Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:38 pm
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Yeh, one more antitactica! :D
And even better, it is about my arch-foe! :twisted:

Thanks, gramash for keeping up to your promises (like if you were once a dwarf...).


For core, I had exhilarating success with a large unit of SSS corsairs, KB-buffed by the COB. Probably the same applies with WE.
Still corsairs, but this time RHB, they can shoot at safe distance (8", dwarf can't charge). However, facing hurled axes, they loose the attrition war...
The sheer number of shots allows some of them to go through.

For magic, I've learned to cast through the strong defense: cast each spell with 4 dice and don't bother with PoD.


I wish you said more about the anvil, and about some usual dwarf hero settings.



Now, I need to clear out the old threads about the same topic:
D.R.A.I.C.H. - knowing your enemy
High level tactica against all races
7th ed vs dwarves?
Help Against Dwarves Please
Tactics against Dwarfs
2.000 points vs dwarves
Help with Castling dwarfs please.
Dealing With the Anvil of Doom
HELP against anvil of doom. Rune of wrath en etc
How to destroy Gyrocopter?
How do i beat dwarfs?
Anti GT Dwarves
Dwarf gunline.
Tactics against dwarves

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Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:44 pm
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Thanks for all your replies

@Demetrius
You are right about the executioners, they are very strong against dwarves, but without the cauldron, black guard are in my opinion better.

I hope you noticed more will come:
I plan to do a pretty large piece on the cauldron of blood, because it makes the units perform a lot better ( as i already stated in most of the profiles)

@Auere
As i already mentioned: this article will continue, a whole tactics section is being written at the moment
and i will use all the comments in the mean time to know what you guys need most knowledge of

@Borog
True armour piercing is good i will put it in, but keep in mind that if you get killing blow from the cauldron, AP will less useful

@The Warchief
21 KB attack can indeed hurt a bit, but look at the statistics:
21 S3 WS4 against T4 WS 4-5
will have about 10 hits then about 3 wounds (1-2 killing blow)
that means you'll kill about 1 or 2 dwarves, then they will kill about 1-2, and if you do not pump your unit with enough models for SCR, you risk losing combat.

I'm not saying they're bad and if you want, take them of course, but for me they are just not reliable enough (frenzy can be pretty annoying too) and we have much better killers.

@Calisson

Thanks for the compliment, and as i already said about the SSS corsairs they're pretty good, but you need lots of them. and even then we have better killers

as for magic, i have not written that part yet, but it will come, because it can easily win you the game. (but also destroy it of course :P )

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we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:12 pm
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Thanks for writing about them short stunted folk and how we may better collect them as slaves, you've done a good job. I've played against them Stunties plenty of times and I strongly disagree with some of the analysis, namely because I use a lot of the "less optimal" choices and manage to score massacres. All my opinions are taken from the perspective of an "all comers" list that is designed to handle anything thrown at it (considering non-tournament environment) but is based on actual experience against dwarves.

Firstly, Witches can dish out enough wounds against dwarves to send them packing. Last game I GOT CHARGED by some warriors and the girls inflicted enough wounds to reduce their leadership break test to 3. I have never experienced an occassion when my unit of witches where beaten in combat by dwarves. Yeah dwarves got armor but witches have a ton of attacks and poison. If your Hag has Manbane, they are even better. I got to give the girls 5/5.

Concerning chariots, my last game included a CoC which managed to survive the entire game and assisted nicely with the massacre (I'm working on a large rug woven with dwarven beards). To say they are useless is inappropriate at best. Now it is quite obvious that the STR7 bolt thrower that is obligatory in every dwarf list I've faced could pose a problem, nevertheless for those who play an all comer list that includes chariots, there is hope. The harpy screens and DR screens are one option and then their is always that moment in time when you would rather have that Bolt shooting the chariot rather than something else (i.e. flank, hydra, etc) and how many players out there can ultimately resist the chance to make a chariot go POP? Or you could use it to limit the movement of a Gyrocoptor. Useless implies lack of imagination and if by the presence of a chariot something more important survives to do its job then you already made some points back by just dying. 3/5

Then there's those RBTs rated at 2/5. All my opponents rightly fear the RBTs and it ain't too difficult to deploy them in such a way that they accomplish their task. I can't remember the last time I lost them against dwarves cause they're too busy shooting at chariots, witches, crossbowmen, executioners, blackguard, dark riders, harpies and the hydra. Maybe its just that I shove so much stuff down their throats so fast that the RBT sitting way back don't seem so bad. I don't know why but they work well for me and I would recommend them in any all comers list. I use them against dwarves to whittle down support elements like handgunners, crossbowmen and gyros. As you already mentioned, our other shooting isn't as good so their ain't nothing to replace it if you aim to soften them handgunners. I give em a 4/5 stars.

To beat dwarves Dark Elves can own them in combat. Yeah that is right sir, I said own. They simply cannot stand up to large units of witches, executioners or blackguard no matter how stubborn they are, IF you deploy appropriately and then effectively deliver those combat units. I say large units because there is the possibility of taking a few casualties on the way (or they may become completely obliterated like my poor ASF executioners last game) but once any of them make contact then the dwarves die off at an unsustainable rate.

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Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:35 am
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Thanks for your insights FleshCollector

you are of course right if you make an allround list. Chariots, witch elves and RBT's are very good, but if you play only against dwarves, there are better choices.
of course for the chariot, useless may be rash, but still, it's very hard to use them against dwarves.
As for Witches, they're awesome, but again... against only dwarves they'll generally have a hard time. you're very lucky to have scored 6 kills, while being charged....(was that on purpose?).
A RBT is a very good addition in an allround list ( as is the hydra) and against dwarves they can be nice, but there are a few risks. you have to find a perfect deployment spot, watch out for enemy artillery, guard them from the gyrocopter and make sure you have line of sight.

Don't get me wrong all three are very good, but not the best. I'm just trying to make clear, that if you play against a good dwarf player and lose every time, you can look here for guidance against dwarves, not the absolute-must-have-or-you-will-die list

(Btw have you read the whole article? and thus saw the line:

''Keep in mind that the comments and scores are for dwarves, against other armies some of the now useless units can do wonders.(like chariots) So please, if you have to kill other armies as well you will need to make other choices''

anyway thanks for your thoughts on the article, but an allrounders list is just not what this article is about. Should I state that better in the article??)

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I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:35 am
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Quote:
21 S3 WS4 against T4 WS 4-5
will have about 10 hits then about 3 wounds (1-2 killing blow)
that means you'll kill about 1 or 2 dwarves, then they will kill about 1-2,

I'm not sure on the maths here, have you taken into account hatred? (22 (inc champ) hitting on 4's = 11 plus hatred rerolls = 15 / 16 of which you get 2.5 / 2.7 KB wounds) I know that doesn't seem to make a lot of difference but then the dwarves only get 1 guy and a champion fighting back, if your running 7x3 you possibly now get the outnumber and the chances are, at worst, you've pinned them for a turn and can support into the flank which WILL break them.

Frenzy against Dwarves isn't going to be such a big downside is it? How much stuff have they got that can pull you out position or redirect you?

PS - I'm not knocking your tactica, I'm just playing Devils Advocate....

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Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:58 am
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Chariots and hydras are generelly not at their best against dwarves, although the hydra is still pretty good because it is so damn cheap!

Witch Elves:

Against dwarves you will be running a cauldron, so why on earth not take witch elves? I mean: 3x6 witch elves with manbane hag and banner of murder equals ALOT of dead dwarves with an extra attack from cauldron! And they are actually a VERY cheap regiment at only 250 points, and do not require a character to be effective. They also become stubborn with reroll.

Lets say that the witch elves loose 6 of their numbers to shooting before they hit a unit of hammerers with a cauldron extra attack. Lets do the math:

Champion (hatred, manbane, ap): 5 attacks = 2,1 wounds after saves.
5 witch elves (hatred, poison, ap): 20 attacks = 4,2 wounds after saves.
Total = 6,3 wounds (+ rank and standard)

I mean - that is not bad from a very cheap regiment! Actually witch elves are also more point resistant to shooting than executioners and BG since they are cheaper and 5+ saves are negated. They are also immune to psycology.


RBTs:

Now RBTs are not an excellent choice against dwarves, but depending on what kind of warmashines he choses, they can do a desent job as counter battery units. Fire at the organ gun and grudge thrower first - those are just mean to dark elves!


Last edited by Auere on Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:02 am
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At the moment i'm writing a Cauldron piece which will make a hell of a difference please be patient as it takes a lot of time.

I'm sorry i forgot to include hatred in my calculations. Corsairs are a nice choice, if you take enough

The same with witch elves of course, but anything buffed up like that can be good :P

I'll try to make the unit section more clear in that the cauldron of blood is a very big variable in your unit selection

i have edited the unit section and will add the cauldron of blood section soon. please comment if you like it or not

i'm always open for new things to add

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I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:45 am
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Quote:
The same with witch elves of course, but anything buffed up like that can be good


"Buffed up like that" costs only 250 points, and even without a cauldron, they can still remove the entire first rank of a dwarven regiment, and continually win combat. (Not that you would ever field them without one...)

I think against dwarves witches and BG are proberbly pretty close, since the armour and frenzy doesnt matter much and poison REALLY helpes. The executioner deathstar with deathhag with BohG is VERY effective but also extremely expensive! I cannot see a reason to field corsairs over witches, other than they are core. Witches get a manbane champion (4-5 S5 attacks!) and can take BoM, wich is a nobrainer. Poison is also really the thing against dwarves.


Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:06 pm
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Witch elves are ws4 s3
Black guard are ws5 s4

That's a pretty huge difference in the amount of wounds you can do

The cauldron even works in favour of the black guard
it's true that they are both good, but black guard are in my opinion better even if they don't have poison

And where do I imply that i would field corsairs over witches?

P.S I rather see the BoM on my BG

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:25 pm
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The corsair comments were mostly directed at The Warchief.


Lets compare BG and WE then:

3x6 BG, FC, Crimson Death, BoM = 319 points
3x6 WE, FC, Manbane, BoM = 255 points

Both are fighting hammerers with +1 attack from cauldron.

BG: 2,5 wounds from Crimson Death champion + 3,3 wounds from remaining BG = 6,2 wounds

WE: 2,1 wounds from Manbane hag + 4,2 wounds from remaining WE = 6,3 wounds

... so its totally even when it comes to damage potential.

Now lets compare other stats:

- Black Guard is 64 points more expensive
- Black Guard has WS5, which is an advantage when fighting dwarf warriors.
- Both are immune to psycology and the downside of frenzy is not really an issue.
- Both are stubborn (proberbly with reroll from cauldron BSB), but the BG has +1 ld.
- Black Guard retains its full effectiveness in the following rounds, while Witch Elves loose their rerolls to hit. This is perhaps the biggest advantage with BG.


So is the continual rerolls, slightly better ld and slightly better damage potential against warriors worth 64 points? I say proberbly - but it is DAMN close! ;-)


Thats all I am saying... against dwarves WE and BG are proberbly even!


Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:03 pm
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I have enjoyed reading the article (the whole thing) but disagree with the points already mentioned. My contributions concerning witches, chariots and RBTs are offered under the assumption that some here shall look into dwarf tactica without the intention of designing a race specific list and either choose to field these so called less optimal units or are forced to take them because they do not have other models. If there is no room for an all comers perspective then so be it but nevertheless I offer a different perspective from catering to beat the dwarfs.

Chariots

CoC are surely less than optimal but certainly not useless with a little imagination. The significant threats to them include STR7 Bolt Throwers, Cannons, Grudge Throwers, Thunderers, and SCR infantry. Wait, that includes almost everything in a dwarf list :shock: We may then assume that they will die eventually but determining how and when that will occur allows for some use out of them yet.

Chariots are a magnet for anything that can make them POP and this can be used to an advantage. Using screening units like harpies or Dark Riders and using terrain, it is possible to move chariots from an effective deployment position and threaten the movement options of Gyrocoptors which want to land beside or behind your advancing infantry. We may assume that a Gyrocoptor will flee from any perspective charge which might in turn leave the chariot now exposed to those aforementioned threats which might then force your opponent to choose the POP attack or something more immediate. Alternatively, the chariot may be exposed at the same moment when another unit requires less pressure to accomplish its task, thus increasing the other units chance of success.

RBTs


Our Repeater Bolt Throwers may be considered less than optimal in a catered list due to the enemy trying to destroy them with opposing war machines. However, RBTs dying to enemy warmachines, fask cav, tunnelers, skirmishers or whatever is only a semantic difference because it is just a dead and dwarves have but warmachines and the gyro to accomplish their demise. I don't consider RBTs significantly more or less vulnerable against dwarfs than I do against O&G, Empire, Skaven or really anything else as each opponent has some way of handling RBTs.

If the Gyro decides to kill RBTs then thank your opponent because your infantry will not be slowed and harassed in the mean time. RBT's have a reasonable chance of destroying the Gyro as well and is a shootout I personally welcome considering the alternatives. RBT's are a support unit and likely will not decide the outcome of a battle against dwarves. Thus they are highly expendable but not before a reasonable task is assigned them which will decide their effective deployment and impact to support your main threats.

If enemy war machines are utilized against RBTs then they may die quickly. The dwarven advantage in warmachine battles often goes their way due to higher strength attacks and some re-roll runes so consider such when deploying RBTs to accomplish their assignment. Obviously if RBTs have nothing to shoot then they are effectively neutralized but being not afraid of loosing them will gain you some return. As with each unit, understand what you intend to gain from them and then deploy effectively.

As far as target priority, it completely depends on your intent but RBTs are good against dwarven support and although I don't personally normally target enemy war machines due to low probability of destroying them (and it suddenly instigates a shoot out that I do not usually prefer) the tactic can be useful to draw fire and get lucky with a well placed shot. In most cases, I consider dwarven infantry low priority knowing that my infantry will handle them perfectly when they get across. Knowing that RBTs may suddenly start a shoot out with enemy war machines might in itself be a useful distraction as your main forces cross the board.

In summary, RBTs and Chariots are more than a pile of less than optimal statistics but unique and viable threats than a canny dark elf general can exploit in many imaginative and useful ways against dwarves in conjunction with the rest of an army. As stand alone components they may not return points directly but they can usually accomplish reasonable objectives if played properly and can be successful even in death. The inclusion of a chariot in my battles against dwarves is precisely for that POP which is a distraction as the opponent anticipates the moment and if denied for several turns through cover suddenly will "take their chance" and not focus on something else.

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Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:44 pm
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Thanks for your addition Fleshcollector
i have been a bit harsh on rbt's and chariots

but still 100 points and a valuable special slot just for a diversion? i rather take 2 units of harpy's and have them do some more than just sacrifice

as for the RBT's i've rated them a bit higher and i have written a bit longer part for them

thanks for your input, especially about making a non anti dwarf only list

i'll consider doing a general list but maybe in another topic

but i need to speak to calisson first about that, because it's just a vague idea i have ( or maybe you could do it? )

_________________
I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:31 pm
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Unless I missed it, I think there are some things underemphasized in your tactica.


One of the large ones would be talking about the Anvil.

I fought someone with Thorek's Anvil.

Can cast 3 undispellable things.

Let a dwarf unit make another move, can march or charge (thus, Yes, a dwarf could actually charge 2h axemen into your black guard and cut your front rank down with an impressive 12" charge. Longer than black guard or executioners. Black Guard with ASF banner and S6 great weapon user champion and/or character in the unit would utterly negate this tactic, but it's viable for dwarfs if you believe he can never charge you.)

Cast on a single unit on 2+, on 3+ he can cast it on D3 units.

Then sniping thing. One unit anywhere takes D6 S4 hits like shooting. One of these on the first round could obliterate a unit of dark riders.
If he uses it with ancient power (works on 3+) then it hits D3 units for 2d6 S4 hits.

The third and least useful is re-roll fear and terror tests. Ancient power version is reroll break tests and panic tests, immune to fear and terror.

On a 1, it miscasts and roll: 1 destroyed, 2-3 doesn't fire next turn, 4-6 no effect.
The special character passes stuff easier but subtracts 1 on his miscast roll.

That thing can target anything so if you have a Supreme Sorc on a pegasus behind a forest, the dwarf will just kill it with the anvil.

I wouldn't recommend a magic army against dwarfs because of their free dispel dice and ability to gun down units. Also T4 and heavy armor and shield mean that most fireballs do less damage than you will take in return from their guns and anvil.

Hydras and dragons have the drawback of Dwarfs with often a 2+ to hit bolt thrower which wounds on 2+ with flaming arrow that does D3 wounds to your hydra. I've had 2 hydras killed in a single turn from a dwarf artillery line. It's of vast importance to stay out of LoS and then take out his cannons ASAP.


Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:18 am
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Wouldnt it be an idea to engage the anvil with a master bsb? As far as I know, it doesnt work when engaged.


Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:24 am
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Thanks for the input, but please note that this article is not finished

A whole tactics section is being written at the moment, but it takes time and with my exams in the near future, i don't know if i can finish it soon

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I was once a dwarf, but then a big dragon appeared. I rose my axe,ready to fight, but the rider said:come to the dark side...
we have cookies!
Well i couldn't resist that!
Now i am the mighty general of a dark elf army MUHUHAHA (still need to work on that evil laugh though)


Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:08 pm
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Gramash,

I think this guide looks really good. I do play dwarves as well as dark elves, so know both armies quite well. Your tactica provides a lot of useful tips and food for thought. Thank you for doing it :)

Of course, there will always be bits that can be added on or argued about, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the article at its core is good and very helpful for both new and seasoned players alike.

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Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:30 pm
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