Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:44 am



Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Countering Cairn Wraiths with combat-heavy Druchii 
Author Message
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
One of the glaring weaknesses in our list is our vulnerability to Ethereal units, i.e. Cairn Wraiths. I see it as the greatest weakness in my competitive tournament setups, since I focus on a combat presence rather than a magic-heavy approach. Without heavy magic, and without a regiment with magical attacks (i.e. Grail Knights, Forest Spirits, Daemons, High Elf Amulet of Light,) we don't have a great solution for Cairn Wraiths other than slowing them down long enough to destroy everything else in a Vamp Count army. Piling on static combat resolution isn't necessarily effective either, since 5 or 6 Cairn Wraiths can easily kill their way through a fully ranked Druchii unit.

I wanted to ask about the experiences of other tournament-oriented players when it comes to handling Cairn Wraiths, and what factors and strategies they include in competitive lists in order to handle Ethereal units. I've been running a Black Dragon/Hydra combination at tougher tournament events, and obviously it competes well but really has no effective solution against a decent-sized Cairn Wraith unit.

_________________
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


Image
Image


Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:32 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:13 pm
Posts: 1071
Post 
One option would be to side charge them with a small unit of harpies (just make sure they start their move near your general or you'll fail your fear test) and get them to pursue away from the rest of your force. At only 55pts, you can afford the sacrifice, and in a tournament list you can use them to missile screen/march block against non-VC armies.

Otherwise, your only solution is SCR and magic weapons.

_________________
Lock up your children, shut all windows tight.
The Witch Elves are hunting for victims tonight.
When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.


Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:38 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:22 am
Posts: 459
Post 
There are a few solid ways to handle wraiths.
1 hydra
2 hydra with blood shield gift from cauldron
3 Exe Axe.
4 Anyone with death piercer (kb lance)
5 avoid them by sitting dark riders just right to make charges hard.

5 is the weakest way to deal with them.
2 does draw out alot of units to deal with them, but it frees up your army to go to work.
3 is by far the easiest way in the world to mow them down.
4 is a bit harder and alot more luck based, but if your roll well you could drop 1 to 3 wraith models in one combat. Assuming you can roll that many 6's of course.

In the end good luck and get your magic weapons ready.

PS no never count on our units to have static combat res against wraiths. Most units will just die from ST5 attacks, and the few that might be able to survive dont have enough static combat res themselves to ensure they dont break.

_________________
Flyers for the win in 8th.

DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!

The Machine will grind you down.

The League of Extraordinary Druchii


Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:45 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 420
Post 
I also run a CC orientated list relying on overwhelming my opponent and when my regular VC opponent started bringing ethereal units against me, it was tough to deal with.

All my characters are on foot, so this compounds the problem since I believe they move 12", which made outmanoeuvring them difficult. They also skirmish, so redirecting them is next to impossible since they can just move around you.

Unfortunately DE do not have that many solutions unless you run magic and if your unwilling to do that, you basically have to attack them with a magic weapon. This can also be difficult unless you have a mounted character. I ended up taking a BSB on a chariot with whip of agony and enchanted shield which worked. It's hard for them to wound and you will have +1 from the BSB and possibly outnumber. You can also pivot your chariot and force them to line up against you, possibly gaining a favourable overrun if you can kill them all.

Death Piercer or Hydra Blade may be better weapons than Whip of Agony against wraiths, but I wanted a more versatile, reliable weapon and didn't want to compromise my uber mundane save of +0 in CC.

And charging them with your hydra is a great way to get your hydra stuck and handlers killed, I wouldn't recommend it.


Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:38 pm
Profile
Purveyor of Pain
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 12:24 am
Posts: 1721
Location: Wherever the fight is
Post 
Hands down, the best way I know to handle them is to take a mounted pendant BSB with sword of might. He has a 2+ armor save and a 5- ward, +1 static combat res, and 3 magical attacks. He won't likely be harmed by them while dealing out wounds should be easy. Launch him out from an infantry unit using his dark steed's 18" movement to catch unexpecting opponents. He also handles flamers very well.

_________________
castrensis in totus res
Fight my Brutehttp://suckerpunch77.mybrute.com
Try Evony!http://zao77s.evony.com


Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:38 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Post 
Maldor wrote:
One option would be to side charge them with a small unit of harpies (just make sure they start their move near your general or you'll fail your fear test) and get them to pursue away from the rest of your force. At only 55pts, you can afford the sacrifice, and in a tournament list you can use them to missile screen/march block against non-VC armies.


The Harpies will likely completely die to Strength 5 Attacks, as well as having to deal with Banshee Scream and other counter-skirmishing factors. There's always the chance of restraining pursuit as well.


Geist wrote:
There are a few solid ways to handle wraiths.
1 hydra
2 hydra with blood shield gift from cauldron
3 Exe Axe.
4 Anyone with death piercer (kb lance)
5 avoid them by sitting dark riders just right to make charges hard.

5 is the weakest way to deal with them.
2 does draw out alot of units to deal with them, but it frees up your army to go to work.
3 is by far the easiest way in the world to mow them down.
4 is a bit harder and alot more luck based, but if your roll well you could drop 1 to 3 wraith models in one combat. Assuming you can roll that many 6's of course.


Certainly functional advice, but I'm not sure I'd call it "solid". The Hydra's really just a stopgap that will be killed or run down after a couple rounds of combat, not to mention that I would be losing a unit that's worth its weight in gold against everything in a VC army that's NOT Cairn Wraiths. It's certainly a good Anvil to tie Cairn Wraiths up though, until I could get another regiment into the flank.

Executioner's Axe is pretty specific, but also involves getting a footslogging character into combat with Movement 6 Skirmishers, which will likely never happen. Deathpiercer's also functional, but depends heavily on rolling 6s.

I suppose that feeding them sacrificial units really looks like the best bet at this point.

_________________
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


Image
Image


Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:40 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am
Posts: 150
Location: Bay Area
Post 
I am not a tourny player so please don't kill me for the reply.

If by chance you run an assasin you could give hin the Cloak and slingshot the lord with exec axe (or the assasin himself) to asure your charge...

My 2 cents

_________________
Too Cold

Only Khaine can judge me!


Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:43 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 420
Post 
I suppose that feeding them sacrificial units really looks like the best bet at this point.

Really? I think my idea was much better than that...

I am not a tourney player so please don't kill me for the reply.

If by chance you run an assassin you could give him the Cloak and slingshot the lord with exec axe (or the assassin himself) to assure your charge...

My 2 cents


It's a valid tactic that can work great, but it may be hard to pull off against VC.


Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:52 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:47 pm
Posts: 39
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Post 
Best ways :

Sword of Might PoK BSB

Exe axe dreadlord with double cloak of shadows (assassin+caddy)

6-7 SCR spearelf unit (up to 7 with the BSB inside) - you can even beat them when receiving a flank charge but make sure to have the BSB on dark steed sit on the exposed flank (I managed that very stunt even despite the fact my BSB was wounded on the charge).

You can also surround them with harpies in a way that'll force them to charge in a unsuitable direction and totaly block their movement/los if they won't. Best to make sure you're in range of LD10 - that way they're pretty much forced to sit there untill they scream the harpies away or make the annoying charge (or take the looong way around).


I play mostly using the ETC ruleset, so I am not certain how good those methods would work against units of 6+ wraiths (ETC restrics VC to units of max.5 models).

_________________
Khemed@warseer


Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:47 am
Profile
Highborn
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:23 am
Posts: 690
Location: Ammerzoden, metropole at the Maas
Post 
i can't see death piercer do any good, You can only use it on the charge, right? So if you don't kill the unit outright, you're screwed!Maybe in a unit of knights for SCR?

using the hydra seems a waste for a something that can take on almost anything else in the VC army.

Quote:
a BSB on a chariot with whip of agony and enchanted shield which worked


Quote:
mounted pendant BSB with sword of might


these seem like you're best options. The high strength attacks from the wraights will toned down by either the Shield or Pendant. and the 3 str 5 magic attacks are probably the best you can get.

Wouldn't send them in alone, try to get an second unit in combat with them for an extra banner and SCR, although this maybe tough because of the movement and skirmish from the wraights

_________________
Nec spe, nec metu

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:41 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 1575
Location: Menoth Wills it - Hippies or Goths
Post 
I use the dragon list and i find 2 options draw them off with the hydra as vamp players get drawn to killing the hydra, or charge with a dragon and grind and take out the counter charges with redirectors, depending on the situation.

_________________
DJ Dizzy Posted: Jul 1 2009, 08:13 PM


Horror


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,989
Joined: 26-February 09



My daemon record is 2 wins and 12 losses... Yep, I suck at warhammer


Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:24 am
Profile
Cold One Knight
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:05 pm
Posts: 213
Post 
Cold One Knights with a champ and magic weapon would give you better range. Not sure how long they would survive though...?

_________________
@the_warchief
Cheltenham Warchiefs


Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:04 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 420
Post 
these seem like you're best options. The high strength attacks from the wraights will toned down by either the Shield or Pendant. and the 3 str 5 magic attacks are probably the best you can get.


Both could be good choices, both have key advantages:

US5 on chariot, which could mean outnumbering a small unit of wraiths. It also means if you hit any nasty undead unit in the flank, it will eliminate their rank bonus.

Chariot causes fear, eliminating the need to take fear checks, which is good. Although it may not help you Vs. terror, unless you outnumber. VC

DS is obviously faster in most cases, although the chariot can flee and pursue the same distance as DS and charge quite far.

S7 as usual is a disaster for the chariot. Vc you will want to look out for vampires with lances or great weapons and blood knights.

DS is US2 which is a risk against big fear causing units, even small fear causing units could be a pain.

I would also point out POK will have no effect against banshees howl, which can be used in CC and as a stand and shoot reaction, but with ld 9 it probably wont be a big deal anyway. The chariot could take more wounds from this and it is also randomized like shooting.


Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:08 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 1575
Location: Menoth Wills it - Hippies or Goths
Post 
Why do you have to kill them, i find it is acceptable to pull them out of the fight with a hydra on a flank as they will send the wraiths after them, then kill the vargulf or flying vampire nearby and it prohibits them moving anywhere fast, due to not being able to march.

A dragon can the normally kill them if you are really worried about it.

As a DE player apart from the fun bus build they should rarely get into combat unless it is on our terms.

_________________
DJ Dizzy Posted: Jul 1 2009, 08:13 PM


Horror


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,989
Joined: 26-February 09



My daemon record is 2 wins and 12 losses... Yep, I suck at warhammer


Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:30 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 420
Post 
Why do you have to kill them, i find it is acceptable to pull them out of the fight with a hydra on a flank as they will send the wraiths after them, then kill the vargulf or flying vampire nearby and it prohibits them moving anywhere fast, due to not being able to march.

Why would a VC player fool around with a hydra? A unit of 5 cairn wraiths can produce 15 S5 attacks and your hydra can do nothing in retaliation. I know from experience if your hydra gets in their way they will just kill it. It's really a waste of a perfectly good hydra that can be doing more important things, like torching regeneration bunkers..

A dragon can the normally kill them if you are really worried about it.


lol.. I hope for 600 points it can kill them. Thats an awfully expensive anwser for dealing with cairn wraiths..

As a DE player apart from the fun bus build they should rarely get into combat unless it is on our terms.

I think your really underestimating them. They move 12" and skirmish, and cause terror which means any march blockers you send their way will be sent packing, or he will just avoid them. My regular opponent likes to move his through forests and other difficult terrain. Not only this but he can cast Van Hels Danse Macabre and move them 8"


Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:47 pm
Profile
Highborn
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:23 am
Posts: 690
Location: Ammerzoden, metropole at the Maas
Post 
@ mitch2 you know they're etheral right? it's a good way to get your hydra killed! wraights are one of the biggest nasties vc got! you don't want these guy's to come running through a building to start butchering your flank! i learned the hard way!anyhoo they are pretty expensive! so its worth killing them

_________________
Nec spe, nec metu

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:51 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 1575
Location: Menoth Wills it - Hippies or Goths
Post 
Yes i know they are ethereal but most vampire players put a lot of effort to kill a hydra and they use wraiths to do it normally, which means although you lose the hydra you take the wraiths out of the game, if positioned correctly. Last game against VCs i played a good player and 5 wraiths ended up in baseline and killed the hydra but by that time i had got my dragon into his general and he was crumbling with them the last 3 turns on ld 5.


Torching bunkers are good but the raise them back and vdm into the hydra with wraiths.

It might be expensive but if you play it properly why would the vampires engage you unless you want to, march block with harpies, dance around with riders and shades and force defensive raising.

I know about the m12 with vdm but vampires hate hydra so deploying a hydra on a flank will make him put the wraiths there to counter the hydra, and normally taking them out of the game.

Whats the problem about the hydra dying, it is underpriced and a lot of players are scared about them so it makes them invest points and positioning for 175pts.

_________________
DJ Dizzy Posted: Jul 1 2009, 08:13 PM


Horror


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,989
Joined: 26-February 09



My daemon record is 2 wins and 12 losses... Yep, I suck at warhammer


Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:29 pm
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3721
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Quote:
Whats the problem about the hydra dying, it is underpriced and a lot of players are scared about them so it makes them invest points and positioning for 175pts.


It's an interesting point: the hydra is underpriced and most people would not think twice about sacrificing two units of dark riders (170 points) to achieve the same effect.

That said though, the hydra is a rare choice and very cheap. For a typical 2250 battle you can take a max of 2 (and most people take just one or none), so throwing one away is a bit of a big decision. That said, it could be a good idea, its just not one that most DEs would commonly think about making. Interesting point overall, definite food for thought :)

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:38 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 1575
Location: Menoth Wills it - Hippies or Goths
Post 
Exactly the hydra is so good but against vampires i am will to sacrifice it for board positioning, it is like daemons who automatically place their flamers opposite the hydra so during deployment you have a good idea where they will be deployed.

Warhammer is won in the movement phase so say you draw the wraiths to a flank and then march block with harpies/riders they are out of the game and are not destroying your army.

_________________
DJ Dizzy Posted: Jul 1 2009, 08:13 PM


Horror


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,989
Joined: 26-February 09



My daemon record is 2 wins and 12 losses... Yep, I suck at warhammer


Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:55 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Post 
Lots of good feedback and discussion in here.

One reason that sacrificing the Hydra is so unfortunate is because it really excels at killing everything that isn't a Cairn Wraith. As others have mentioned, the breath weapon is tremendous and the huge volume of attacks on reasonably small frontage is great when you commit to killing a large VC bunker.

Still, if Wraiths are running rampant through your lines, throwing the Hydra into combat is a small price to pay. There's been a lot of good advice about using fodder to slow Wraiths down, and even though Terror/Banshee scream limits that effectiveness tremendously, I still think it's doable.

_________________
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


Image
Image


Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:08 pm
Profile
Shade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:15 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Cajun Country
Post 
Why not go straight to the source? Use that Hydra to kill the vamp instead, my hydra has quite a good number of vampires in his stomach :)

_________________
-"Hey, there is a goblin sneaking up on you."
"So what?"
-"Just saying."


Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:37 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:48 am
Posts: 1575
Location: Menoth Wills it - Hippies or Goths
Post 
Because only a poor player will put vampire lord in a position to easily kill him. Wraiths are one of the units i struggle with so as i normally run no magic it is either take it out of the game through positioning and drawing him off or send the daddy dragon.

Also because of VDM they are a really fast unit, so be drawing them onto a flank you can nulify the threat.

_________________
DJ Dizzy Posted: Jul 1 2009, 08:13 PM


Horror


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,989
Joined: 26-February 09



My daemon record is 2 wins and 12 losses... Yep, I suck at warhammer


Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:51 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:48 pm
Posts: 1031
Location: Naggaroth...where the ice cream never melts
Post 
I have found that the only way to reasonably handle them is to know you can't handle them and act accordingly, I run a dragon lord list and he's the only thing I've got with magic in it. If there's wraiths on the board, I have to know I can't kill them. Therefore, I have to either go after them with my lord or throw a couple sacrifice units at them. The Lord isn't a great option because all those s5 hits can actually hurt the Dragon, but it's not horrendous. The other option is to a couple units in the way to try and keep them out of it as long as possible. But that's tough to do. A hydra is actually a pretty solid option. The bait is strong enough that the vamp player will probably take it, and the Hydra can last awhile. I've never done it, but with my poor success against wraiths it's the best option I've seen.


Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:34 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:22 am
Posts: 459
Post 
Just to fill out one of my ideas a lil better. The reason you would send a hydra into the wraiths is such.
1 you have numbers.
2 they need 4's to hit and 4's wound and you get 4's to save. Thats rather good odds to take only 1 wound a turn. At least for me it is. Add blood shield and it gets better.
3 depending on number of wraiths they can only attack hydra. If they have 5 wraiths then yes they can attack handlers.
4 cost of a hydra VS wraiths wrecking your army. I think its a good trade.

As to killing general. Not always easy as stated before, also its not something you should bank on. Its a very iffy gig. If its a vamp lord with no kb amour on mount in unit with regen banner, then you are wasting your time. If hes in said unit and has no save or does not have the kb armour, then gift your hydra with kb and go get him.

_________________
Flyers for the win in 8th.

DEATH FROM ABOVE DRUCIH AIR CAV!!!!

The Machine will grind you down.

The League of Extraordinary Druchii


Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:32 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:54 pm
Posts: 2503
Location: Québec, Canucksda.
Post 
One Flaw, luck would have it that any 4s and 5s you roll for your save... are ignored (; as you're first taking a 6+ armor save before regen!

Then as luck would have it again, youll roll 3s for regen ;P so annoying.


Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:36 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software