Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:06 pm



Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
something completly different (2250 pts) 
Author Message
Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
Posts: 134
hiya all, i am not a new user, but my former account was totally screwed up and even reset/ forgot password did not help anymore, so a new account then.

anyway, i got sick and tired of seeing a lot of the same dark elf lists and then came up with this one, no hydra's, no black guard, no ring, hag greaf or pendant, but a lot of models and a good record sofar.

so i give it to ye all for critics and as a sort of inspiration to try something different.

chars:
1 DH cob BSB
3 x DH
(no upgrades or whatever, chars should be cheap and expendable)

20 warriors shields, mus banner
20 warriors shields, mus banner
20 warriors shields, mus banner
(1 DH in each of them, makes them stubborn while near CoB)

12 rxb warrs shield mus
13 rxb warrs shield mus

10 corsairs banner SSS
10 coirsairs mus banner

5 DR mus
5 DR mus
5 DR mus

5 harpies
5 harpies
5 harpies

6 WE
6 WE
8 execs mus banner BoCB
8 execs mus

2250 pts, compatible with at about the most rigid composition systems, and if ppl start to cry cheese on this list, they will do so on any list

159 models, 18 deployment slots

general tactics:
3 blocks of warriors with 2x4 ranked up execs as a sort of detachment form the center with the cauldron just behind them.

why 2 x 4 execs? to decrease frontage and prevent them from being charged (deplyed slightly behind the spears), since they will normally (in my playingstyle) charge flanks, preferably of cavalry, more than 4 are wasted for max attacks anyway.

only things that would be able to charge them are chariots or lone chars, lone chars wil not do so vs KB, and chariots are easily take out by the DR or diverted by the harpies, or shot to pieces.

the spears are stubborn, unless ppl will devote way to many attacks to kill the DH, and then ye will win by static CR (not to mention 9 spearelves with either another att or KB will do something). with the BSB cauldron hag near, they will hold (just like BG but way cheaper and no cry cheese on the common DE warrior)

the other units are there to support this center or to take out enemy shooters/ warmachines/ mages.

This list is just worth it to see the opponents face when ye do not use a hydra, nor black guard and put down more models than almost any army out there (pure goblins and skaven excepted), and i finally could dust off my spearelves again.


Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:28 pm
Profile
Noble
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 426
Post 
You could try to work the BoN in there. You're likely to generate lots of combat resolution then. All in all, you lack some punch safe for the fragile execs, which could prove your downfall. But you already know that, so good luck. :D


Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:20 pm
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3718
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Quote:
but a lot of models and a good record sofar.


Looks like an interesting list. Could you provide more info on its track record so far (how frequently are you winning (or losing/drawing) by how much, what units do well and what has gone wrong) etc.

As you've already played with it, that will make it easier for people to comment :)

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:25 pm
Profile
Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
Posts: 134
Post 
Well, my current win/ draw/ lose ratio is about 80/15/5 % or so.

this is mostly the result of my : everything can be sacrificed for the greater good viewpoint (typical druchii aint it?)

and the execs are not the only heavy hitters, for what do we need strength for? to negate armour saves OR to negate high toughness (but next to no time to negate both of them at the same time ST and dragons are the only exception in my opinion), armour saves can be negated just as well with killing blow (CoB) and high toughness can be negated just as well with poison (WE, DH).

well, lets put down a unit by unit use description:

Spearelves, Static CR, quite unmovable block as long as the DH in it is alive.

Execs, flanking forces (and deployed 2x4, the get there almost everytime)

rxb's mainly there to take out enemy fast cavalry or light chariots (the goblin or HE version with 18"charge range) or large targets while ranked up (depends on enemy army comp, and with 18 deploymentslots, i have the choice when and how to place those)

DR: to take out enemy chariots (hard to manouvre a 14"chariot in a way ye do not offer yer flank to the DR while threatening the execs) otherwise, screening WE/ hunting mages/ WM

Harpies: screens, WM hunters, speedbumbs

corsairs: frenzy ones, flank guard (no need for general influence)
other unit, the same, but preferably withing 12" of general (the general is to one side of the 3 units, not in the middle)

WE: 60 pts, looks like nothing, but can decide a battle quite often, enough attacks to win a combat vs a static resolution block frontal.

combine this with my deployment, i can hardly hide where the main blocks go, so why bother? put down 2 spear blocks, 1 exec unit, 3x harpies and some DR and the enemy is allready finished deploying.

what units do well depend on what the enemy brings, but none of them really dissapointed me sofar in the long run.


Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:51 pm
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8714
Location: Hag Graef
Post 
Thanks for the testimony!
Running stubborn horde, that was a creative army!

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:37 pm
Profile
Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
Posts: 134
Post 
ah, to expand on the records:

this was over 18 battles or so, the one i lost, was due to a chain terro/panic reaction (not much is immune to that),

the draws was vs evasion type armies (i catch some, he shoots some, well, ye get the point, nothing worthwile to shoot here, not much to capture there, heavy on terrain then too.

the wins, either massive victories or massacres (50/50), for while it is a horde army, for horde, our units are all quite good (with WS 4 and hatred) and the CoB can always give that boost the unit needs then.

just one word of advice, do not try this on a small gaming table, its fine to put harpies and DR (sideways) in front of other units, but ye do not want to put infantry after infantry.

and for the mandatory "what about magic defence questions"
you are used to your 300+ pts units that cannot weather a magic missile or 2, take it, bite it and well, what is one unit when ye have 18?, just keep those ye do not want to lose out of sight (not hard to do, harpies, DR, other units).

magic is only a threat when you count on 1 or 2 units to win you the battle, it is (next to) useless vs a horde with a good leadership (I think anyone that has tried magic heavy vs skaven can agree on this, vs goblins is a totally different story thou).


Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:24 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior

Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:39 am
Posts: 29
Post 
Why no champions in the spear blocks?


Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:04 am
Profile
Lord of the Venom Sword
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 12:58 pm
Posts: 2171
Location: London
Post 
I like the idea, but have a few questions/suggestions:

Why no warbanner? Your strategy seems to rely on static CR a fair bit so I see no reason not to include this on one of your spear blocks.

I'd suggest making some of your units bigger if you can. The WE units look like easy targets at 6 strong. They could easily be destroyed in 1 phase and cause panic. Even having a couple more in the units to make them 8-10 could help here a lot. And your Spearelves are losing a rank after 2 casualties (assuming the hag is in there). This isn't so important when facing small elite armies as you're bound to still have at least 1 unit still at full strength, but when facing horde armies with a lot of ranks themselves (orcs, skaven, VC), it is important to keep full ranks and outnumber in 1 on 1 matchups as you are more likely to have 1 on 1 combats vs these armies.
Obviously you'd have to find the points somehow for this but it could well be worth sacrificing some stuff for IMO. I definitely feel the extra numbers would help the spears and WEs more than it does the rxbs so perhaps drop the rxbs down in number a bit, maybe the 3rd harpy unit could go too.

Why BoCB on the exes? I see it would be useful for ensuring you get the charge when you need it, but it is expensive (when you include the cost of the basic banner) and I feel you already have enouigh/too many banners in the list. I think it is worth taking the risk and leaving this banner at home.

_________________
Ash010110 wrote:
I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:54 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3718
Location: Baltimore
Post 
Thanks Valkyre,

It looks like a really interesting list and fascinating to hear how it has done. I'm not sure its to my exact taste, but I'll definitely bear in mind some of the principles for future lists :)

If you have a record of 14/3/1 then I'm guessing your list doesn't need too much tweaking tbh!

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 am
Profile
Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
Posts: 134
Post 
Ant,

the number of banners is since a lot of tourneys around here have a rule that only mayority of capped banners grants 100 VP, so having a few more does not really hurt my results.

is it based on static CR? not really, it is still a MSU army with a few big (and stubborn due to DH in it) blocks.

WE causing panic? please tell me how? they wont run from a few arrows due to frenzy.
I use them as a diversion, those will NOT be screened after turn 1, but run forward before the main units, shoot them, fine with me, magic them, fine with me, ye need to utterly destroy them to cause panic if other troops are near them (6"), i try to avoid that if a total kill is possible on them.

if the opponent is devoting enough resources to utterly destroy 2 units fo 6 WE, how many other units are spared from his long range attentions? otherwise, no panic at all.

ppl drawing them out, this is really only an option if you are certain your baiting and fleeing unit is:
A: not gonna cause panic when it flees through your own units
B: has a good chance to rally again
c: is not stranded in front of your own units and blocking up all of your movement (fast cavalry, but those quite possibly do flee through your own units).

Baiting them in a battle you are sure to win?
What is sure to win from 6 we? even heavy cav would be pressed if i give them the KB blessing, not to mention, if the CoB is near enough, they could become stubborn too (only HE swordmasters and spearelves come to mind to me).

6 WE units are great as disruption forces charge them ahead and let the opponent sort them out, screen them with deployemnt so ye can make a turn 1 march movement and after that...... (ye do not want the opponent to be able to draw them out with Fast cav on your turn 1, it wont cause panic in his own line (to far away) and the fastcavalry wont block his whole battle line, turn 2 is fine thou, then they gonna flee through friendly forces.


Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:33 pm
Profile
Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
Posts: 134
Post 
champions in spearblocks would be nice, but where to get the points? thou, its only 18, i might drop a few rxb's for it.

Warbanner is not needed i think, this list relies on stubborn blocks with a flank charge next turn (execs preferred) the BoCB is indeed there to assure a charge, pass a crucial panic/terror test.

due to disruption with WE i hardly have all my blocks in a 1 on 1 combat (never happened sofar at least) and last but not least, the DH's, due to frenzy are often able to and must do a flank charge on their won on an combat block, and those are plain nasty on their own allready.


Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:46 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:40 pm
Posts: 420
Post 
I like where you have placed the executioners, keeps them safe yet still very much deadly! I am going to use this idea with my all Khainite list.

Although one issue I am facing with my own plan is that if the army marches, your hags will not be within 12" of the COB to become stubborn. How do you make sure the COB stays within 12"?

It's overwhelming for an elven army, which will be hard for many people to deal with, but I would be weary of magic and other template weapons, it won't take much to cripple the back bone of your army..


Sun May 02, 2010 8:22 pm
Profile
Lord of the Venom Sword
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 12:58 pm
Posts: 2171
Location: London
Post 
Nice answers mate. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this army. I still don't necessarily agree with you but what works for one person doesn't always work for everyone anyway.

Just a quick note, the panic I was talking about with the witch elves was for if they are totally wiped out: not hard to do really with shooting, and probably my first targets if I were facing you. I think with 7-8 it will happen less often and means the unit is still pretty scary after taking 3-4 casualties, whereas if it started at 6 strong it wouldn't be. Plus it isn't expensive.

One other question. Why 3 naked death hags rather than 3 mundane only masters? Is it noticeably cheaper or is there another reason? I think masters would be a better option if just so you have a save so can soak up a few wounds in challenges. And of course they are not frenzied so can't be pulled out of the unit by a canny opponent.

_________________
Ash010110 wrote:
I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Tue May 04, 2010 11:28 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:36 am
Posts: 1070
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Post 
Ant- I think he wants DHs so that when they are within the 12" of the COB, the spears become stubborn. The problem I see with this is that they are t3 no save 2 wound models, so are easily killed. I would take masters, so they get a decent save, even if your not taking magic weapons (take halberds for S5).

It is an intresting list, and the tactic that you mentioned with the Executioners being deployed 4 wide between units back a bit is a very interesting one that Im tempted to try. Thanks for that :D

Obviously magic is going to be a problem, but even a single unit of Ethereals could just ravage through your lines. And theres no way for you to deal with monsters, specifically flying ones who can avoid your heavy hitters and easily outmanoevre your blocks.

_________________
www.twitter.com/lachie57


Tue May 04, 2010 12:15 pm
Profile
Lord of the Venom Sword
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 12:58 pm
Posts: 2171
Location: London
Post 
Good point. I had totally forgotten that was why the spears were stubborn.

The problems with them are still there though: as Demetrius said, hags are easy to kill, there is still the frenzy baiting, and the unit will still be autobroken by fear.

Thinking about it, it seems an expensive and risky way to get stubborn. And you generally don't need more than 2 stubborn units in an army (if you are losing that many combats, you've lost the game, stubborn or not), which can easily be achieved by bumping up your special choices. and saving the points. Of course that would totally change the dynamic of your army, so I'm not suggesting you do it.

_________________
Ash010110 wrote:
I completely agree with Ant (Reynolds, I presume?).

(Please note, I am NOT Anthony Reynolds)


Wed May 05, 2010 10:28 am
Profile
Generalissimo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 3718
Location: Baltimore
Post 

And you generally don't need more than 2 stubborn units in an army (if you are losing that many combats, you've lost the game, stubborn or not)


This is a slight abstraction, but that's generally why stubborn witch elf units are pointless: if you're losing combat with your witches then you may as well throw the unit away! They lose their frenzy and will either autobreak (curse those fear causing enemies) or be in the process of dieing by the bucketlod.


I use them as a diversion, those will NOT be screened after turn 1, but run forward before the main units, shoot them, fine with me, magic them, fine with me, ye need to utterly destroy them to cause panic if other troops are near them (6"), i try to avoid that if a total kill is possible on them.

if the opponent is devoting enough resources to utterly destroy 2 units fo 6 WE, how many other units are spared from his long range attentions? otherwise, no panic at all.


This is valid - to a point. A saavy opponent will shoot/magic each unit of 6 once - enough to kill 2-4 models and make the unit irrelevant to the game - then ignore them and focus on better targets. Lets be honest, a side charge from 2-3 witches isn't going to make a huge difference to a combat.

_________________
"While all answers are replies, not all replies are answers. So answer the question."

Don't be a munchkin?

Image

I am an Extraordinary Druchii Gentleman


Wed May 05, 2010 12:06 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 16 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software