Hello,
I have fought several battles against the skaven and lost against them. So I am looking for some tactics to fight against them, in particular how to handle their doom wheels, censor bearers, hell pits, and their plague furnaces. What sort of Lores should I take against the ratmen? Any sort of General tactics to kill the pesky vermin also can be of use.
Thanks for the information.
-herkles-
Killing the pesky skaven
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
-
Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 1444
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
There are two mechanics that you have to balance when fighting Skaven:
-Handling hordes
-Busting single models and regiments with high killing power.
Essentially, Skaven will be able to saturate you with hordes of regiments (none of which yield meaningful Victory Points) while their deadly regiments (the ones that are worth Victory Points) come in and clean up your force while you're distracted elsewhere. The challenge is to handle the hordes effectively, preserve your own Victory Points, and gain Victory Points from your opponent.
Handling hordes:
Your ability to handle slave, clanrat, giant rat and storvermin units will depend largely on your build. If you're regiment heavy, you'll probably have one or two decent Core blocks capable of fighting Skaven blocks one-on-one and winning. This regiment will be valuable for protecting your backline, whether you have magic users, bolt throwers or crossbowmen. Against Skaven, it's almost always useful to deploy in a corner or deploy terrain in the middle of the table while marchblocking. Most Skaven lists will have so many regiments that they'll stretch from one side of the table to the other, so being able to slow down the far away units means you can kill off the stuff close to you before he can bring all his numbers to bear.
Also, as others have mentioned, negating ranks means a virtually guaranteed kill versus Skaven. Similarly, using breath weapons, magic or crossbows to remove one or two rank bonuses makes Skaven more susceptible to Fear, Panic and Terror. It's very easy to Terror and Panic-bomb Skaven in the later turns of the game, especially if you've killed off their central Leadership character and some of their regiments are depleted. If you don't manage their hordes well, then you're probably going to see your flanks and backline overwhelmed with regiments. Slaves and Giant Rats are very cheap, but still have enough static combat resolution and relative mobility to kill off bolt throwers and shooting regiments if you're not careful. In addition to using Core regiments to help handle these threats, a simple unit of Cold One Knights is often enough to clear some of these threats and buy you some more space.
Busting threats:
Skaven regiments are great for adding clutter, but you don't want to let them distract you. The real killing power (as well as the real Victory Points) come from Skaven Special regiments and Rare monsters. Weapon teams and Jezzails are a significant threat, and being able to use crossbowmen against the former and bolt throwers/warmachine hunters against the latter will help generate VP and reduce threats to your army. The Hell Pit Abomination and Doomwheel are also major threats.
The HPA is, in my opinion, the single best thing about the Skaven list. The HPA is underappreciated by many Skaven players, but he averages about 10 Strength 6 hits every round of combat when you factor in impact hits and take the average of his three different attack modes. Add in Regeneration, 360 degree charging ability, terror, and the ability to come back to life and you're looking at a threat that needs to die instantly if you don't want to lose the game. I've had the HPA get into my backlines with a few wounds remaining, and then leapfrog from Dark Elf regiment to Dark Elf regiment every turn, killing everything he touches and single-handedly winning games for Skaven players. Even a great combined charge against this thing is unreliable, since it has 6 wounds, Regeneration and is Stubborn on decent Leadership. If you can kill this thing with shooting, great. If not, soften it up and use a Hydra/dragon to go for the kill. Never go into combat against an HPA with full wounds left, because we likely can't kill it (curse our lack of Flaming weapons) and it will destroy whatever we charge against it. Be familiar with its modes of attack too, so there are no surprises once combat begins.
The Doomwheel isn't quite the universal killer that the HPA is, but can be dangerous to small regiments on the charge and can easily kill Hydras and monstrous mounts without trying too hard. The Doomwheel's more susceptible to shooting than the HPA is though, due to no Regeneration, fewer wounds, and a chance to misfire and move in a random direction every time it's hurt. The Doomwheel is also very poor in subsequent rounds of combat, where its roll for impact hits are reduced from D6 to a measly D3. Either block this guy up with rank-and-file regiments, or charge him with something fast and killey and be sure to break him on the charge (make sure the charge is overwhelming though, because you don't want your dragon, hydra or cold one knights stuck in combat when the Skaven player's turn roles around again and the Doomwheel gets a chance to fire before combat begins.)
The Plague Furnace/Bell aren't too bad. They'll naturally be in an enormous unit, which will therefore be slow and not very mobile. Don't charge the furnace to the front, because it has excellent killing power (especially since low Toughness elves, which will be destroyed the Wrecker attack and Forced Toughness tests.) Using magic or shooting to try and soften up the Bell/Furnace itself, then charge with a high Toughness killing unit to finish it off and help break the unit pushign the Bell/Furnace. Also, flank charges are very destructive against Bell/Furnace units, and while your flanking unit will be stuck in combat a long time while it kills rats, you don't have to worry about the Furnace smashing you apart too much.
Censer Bearers are the last item in the major combat threats list. These guys hit absurdly hard against everything, and even ASF Black Guard and charging Cold One Knights will struggle to win, since half of them will die to failed Toughness tests before attacks are even made. They are (of course) Frenzied, so it's not too hard to lead them around with Dark Riders/Harpies until you're ready to fight them. Shooting and magic deals with them nicely, as well as high-Toughness killers like the Hydra and dragon.
Now, the thing I particularly dislike when fighting Skaven is the Stormbanner. Since all of our missile fire relies on a to-Hit roll, and we have a lot of flying models in our lists, the Stormbanner (as well as Howling Warpgale, a spell with similar affects) can really sabotage our plans. If you don't plan for Stormbanner from Turn 1, and don't take it into account during movement and ever phase of the game, a decent Skaven player will automatically win against most Dark Elf opponents. Your bolt throwers will become near-useless, as well as Shades, Dark Riders and Crossbowmen. Harpies, dragons and Manticores will lose their ability to fly, and a smart Skaven player will wait until these units are in a bad position before popping Stormbanner and pinning them in place. It's important to plan a strategy that doesn't rely heavily on shooting or flying, because you could lose both for a random length of time during the game. If you have a Dragon or Harpies, keep in mind that you may be restricated to using their ground movement in your next turn.
Lore Selection:
Dark Magic and Fire are both good ways to go. Fire is great because it's does an excellent job versus the dangerous Skaven units. Lore of Fire mitigatse the HPA's save and prevents it from coming back to life, easily forces Panic tests on Skaven regiments, and chews up Jezzails, weapon teams and Censer Bearers easily.
Each of the Dark Magic spells is effective as well. Chillwind is great for Jezzails and sniping weapon teams, Doombolt can serve a similar function while also threatening Furnaces, Doomwheels and HPAs, Word of Pain can tone down weapon teams and Jezzails while also softening the impact of the HPA, and Soul Stealer and Black Horror are dominant versus big Skaven regiments.
Effective units against Skaven:
Shades and the rending star Assassin are great choices when fighting skaven. In the context of the Stormbanner, their higher Ballistic Skill helps them offset that -2 to hit and still put pressure on threats that NEED to die, like the HPA, Censer Bearers and Doomwheel. The Assassin/shade configuration is also good for gunning down Furnaces, as well as gunning down gutter runners that might sneaking onto the table after bolt throwers.
Bolt throwers: These guys can be good, but they require more care when fighting Skaven. Stormbanner can make them near-useless, so I usually fire them at Large Targets where the +1 to hit helps offset the -2 shooting penalty of Stormbanner. Giant rats, Nightrunners and Gutter Runners can hunt these things fairly easily too, so be sure to keep them supported and protected if you don't' want to utilize them as a throwaway unit.
Corsairs/Warriors: These guys are easily capable of holding the line against most Skaven regiments, and while they don't stand any kind of chance against the tougher stuff, they're great for general crowd control. Hatred can help them generate a surprising number of kills against clanrats, slaves and giant rats.
Cold One Knights: Core Skaven regiments have a very hard time dealing with these guys, since the Fear causing, Hatred, and 2+ armor saves are all hurdles for poor Skaven troops. These guys are great for additional crowd control, and can even chase down Clanrat units to snag banners for more Victory Points. Don't let them get charged by any Skaven killers though, and be sure to help them avoid any weapon teams you might come across.
Black Guard: These guys are obviously pretty effective against all armies, but really shine against Skaven. If you can keep them safe from Skaven magic, shooting and an HPA charge, they'll happily kill whatever they touch. Skaven are actually in a bit of trouble against Black Guard because they don't have a basic Core missile regiment like handgunners or Glade Guard, who can easily decimate Black Guard while requiring a lot of shooting to eradicate. Keep them free of Warp Lighting, Scorch and Warpfire templates, and they'll do well.
That's all that's coming to me at the moment. Best of luck.
-Handling hordes
-Busting single models and regiments with high killing power.
Essentially, Skaven will be able to saturate you with hordes of regiments (none of which yield meaningful Victory Points) while their deadly regiments (the ones that are worth Victory Points) come in and clean up your force while you're distracted elsewhere. The challenge is to handle the hordes effectively, preserve your own Victory Points, and gain Victory Points from your opponent.
Handling hordes:
Your ability to handle slave, clanrat, giant rat and storvermin units will depend largely on your build. If you're regiment heavy, you'll probably have one or two decent Core blocks capable of fighting Skaven blocks one-on-one and winning. This regiment will be valuable for protecting your backline, whether you have magic users, bolt throwers or crossbowmen. Against Skaven, it's almost always useful to deploy in a corner or deploy terrain in the middle of the table while marchblocking. Most Skaven lists will have so many regiments that they'll stretch from one side of the table to the other, so being able to slow down the far away units means you can kill off the stuff close to you before he can bring all his numbers to bear.
Also, as others have mentioned, negating ranks means a virtually guaranteed kill versus Skaven. Similarly, using breath weapons, magic or crossbows to remove one or two rank bonuses makes Skaven more susceptible to Fear, Panic and Terror. It's very easy to Terror and Panic-bomb Skaven in the later turns of the game, especially if you've killed off their central Leadership character and some of their regiments are depleted. If you don't manage their hordes well, then you're probably going to see your flanks and backline overwhelmed with regiments. Slaves and Giant Rats are very cheap, but still have enough static combat resolution and relative mobility to kill off bolt throwers and shooting regiments if you're not careful. In addition to using Core regiments to help handle these threats, a simple unit of Cold One Knights is often enough to clear some of these threats and buy you some more space.
Busting threats:
Skaven regiments are great for adding clutter, but you don't want to let them distract you. The real killing power (as well as the real Victory Points) come from Skaven Special regiments and Rare monsters. Weapon teams and Jezzails are a significant threat, and being able to use crossbowmen against the former and bolt throwers/warmachine hunters against the latter will help generate VP and reduce threats to your army. The Hell Pit Abomination and Doomwheel are also major threats.
The HPA is, in my opinion, the single best thing about the Skaven list. The HPA is underappreciated by many Skaven players, but he averages about 10 Strength 6 hits every round of combat when you factor in impact hits and take the average of his three different attack modes. Add in Regeneration, 360 degree charging ability, terror, and the ability to come back to life and you're looking at a threat that needs to die instantly if you don't want to lose the game. I've had the HPA get into my backlines with a few wounds remaining, and then leapfrog from Dark Elf regiment to Dark Elf regiment every turn, killing everything he touches and single-handedly winning games for Skaven players. Even a great combined charge against this thing is unreliable, since it has 6 wounds, Regeneration and is Stubborn on decent Leadership. If you can kill this thing with shooting, great. If not, soften it up and use a Hydra/dragon to go for the kill. Never go into combat against an HPA with full wounds left, because we likely can't kill it (curse our lack of Flaming weapons) and it will destroy whatever we charge against it. Be familiar with its modes of attack too, so there are no surprises once combat begins.
The Doomwheel isn't quite the universal killer that the HPA is, but can be dangerous to small regiments on the charge and can easily kill Hydras and monstrous mounts without trying too hard. The Doomwheel's more susceptible to shooting than the HPA is though, due to no Regeneration, fewer wounds, and a chance to misfire and move in a random direction every time it's hurt. The Doomwheel is also very poor in subsequent rounds of combat, where its roll for impact hits are reduced from D6 to a measly D3. Either block this guy up with rank-and-file regiments, or charge him with something fast and killey and be sure to break him on the charge (make sure the charge is overwhelming though, because you don't want your dragon, hydra or cold one knights stuck in combat when the Skaven player's turn roles around again and the Doomwheel gets a chance to fire before combat begins.)
The Plague Furnace/Bell aren't too bad. They'll naturally be in an enormous unit, which will therefore be slow and not very mobile. Don't charge the furnace to the front, because it has excellent killing power (especially since low Toughness elves, which will be destroyed the Wrecker attack and Forced Toughness tests.) Using magic or shooting to try and soften up the Bell/Furnace itself, then charge with a high Toughness killing unit to finish it off and help break the unit pushign the Bell/Furnace. Also, flank charges are very destructive against Bell/Furnace units, and while your flanking unit will be stuck in combat a long time while it kills rats, you don't have to worry about the Furnace smashing you apart too much.
Censer Bearers are the last item in the major combat threats list. These guys hit absurdly hard against everything, and even ASF Black Guard and charging Cold One Knights will struggle to win, since half of them will die to failed Toughness tests before attacks are even made. They are (of course) Frenzied, so it's not too hard to lead them around with Dark Riders/Harpies until you're ready to fight them. Shooting and magic deals with them nicely, as well as high-Toughness killers like the Hydra and dragon.
Now, the thing I particularly dislike when fighting Skaven is the Stormbanner. Since all of our missile fire relies on a to-Hit roll, and we have a lot of flying models in our lists, the Stormbanner (as well as Howling Warpgale, a spell with similar affects) can really sabotage our plans. If you don't plan for Stormbanner from Turn 1, and don't take it into account during movement and ever phase of the game, a decent Skaven player will automatically win against most Dark Elf opponents. Your bolt throwers will become near-useless, as well as Shades, Dark Riders and Crossbowmen. Harpies, dragons and Manticores will lose their ability to fly, and a smart Skaven player will wait until these units are in a bad position before popping Stormbanner and pinning them in place. It's important to plan a strategy that doesn't rely heavily on shooting or flying, because you could lose both for a random length of time during the game. If you have a Dragon or Harpies, keep in mind that you may be restricated to using their ground movement in your next turn.
Lore Selection:
Dark Magic and Fire are both good ways to go. Fire is great because it's does an excellent job versus the dangerous Skaven units. Lore of Fire mitigatse the HPA's save and prevents it from coming back to life, easily forces Panic tests on Skaven regiments, and chews up Jezzails, weapon teams and Censer Bearers easily.
Each of the Dark Magic spells is effective as well. Chillwind is great for Jezzails and sniping weapon teams, Doombolt can serve a similar function while also threatening Furnaces, Doomwheels and HPAs, Word of Pain can tone down weapon teams and Jezzails while also softening the impact of the HPA, and Soul Stealer and Black Horror are dominant versus big Skaven regiments.
Effective units against Skaven:
Shades and the rending star Assassin are great choices when fighting skaven. In the context of the Stormbanner, their higher Ballistic Skill helps them offset that -2 to hit and still put pressure on threats that NEED to die, like the HPA, Censer Bearers and Doomwheel. The Assassin/shade configuration is also good for gunning down Furnaces, as well as gunning down gutter runners that might sneaking onto the table after bolt throwers.
Bolt throwers: These guys can be good, but they require more care when fighting Skaven. Stormbanner can make them near-useless, so I usually fire them at Large Targets where the +1 to hit helps offset the -2 shooting penalty of Stormbanner. Giant rats, Nightrunners and Gutter Runners can hunt these things fairly easily too, so be sure to keep them supported and protected if you don't' want to utilize them as a throwaway unit.
Corsairs/Warriors: These guys are easily capable of holding the line against most Skaven regiments, and while they don't stand any kind of chance against the tougher stuff, they're great for general crowd control. Hatred can help them generate a surprising number of kills against clanrats, slaves and giant rats.
Cold One Knights: Core Skaven regiments have a very hard time dealing with these guys, since the Fear causing, Hatred, and 2+ armor saves are all hurdles for poor Skaven troops. These guys are great for additional crowd control, and can even chase down Clanrat units to snag banners for more Victory Points. Don't let them get charged by any Skaven killers though, and be sure to help them avoid any weapon teams you might come across.
Black Guard: These guys are obviously pretty effective against all armies, but really shine against Skaven. If you can keep them safe from Skaven magic, shooting and an HPA charge, they'll happily kill whatever they touch. Skaven are actually in a bit of trouble against Black Guard because they don't have a basic Core missile regiment like handgunners or Glade Guard, who can easily decimate Black Guard while requiring a lot of shooting to eradicate. Keep them free of Warp Lighting, Scorch and Warpfire templates, and they'll do well.
That's all that's coming to me at the moment. Best of luck.
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.
-
Tethlis
- Malekith's Best Friend
- Posts: 1444
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
The HPA stands for Hell Pit Abomination, which is the new Skaven Rare monster choice.
Shadow Lore:
Not particularly great. Steed of Shadows can be good to help get a combat character into the fight against Jezzails or a Warplightning cannon, but that's pretty situation. The offensive spells don't really do enough damage to really scare Skaven, though Crown of Taidron can be great against weapon teams and skaven skirmishers if you can get into a good enough position to use it. Pit of Shades isn't too great, because all Skaven have fairly high Initiative and even the Hell Pit Abomination is (if I remeber correctly) Initiative 4. The Bell and Furnace wouldn't like it very much, but you'd have to kill their riders first. As far as huge regiment-destroying templates go, Black Horror is a better choice versus Skaven.
Death is a fairly good all-around Lore, and the magic missiles are quite useful while Doom and Darkness can cause some fairly significant problems. If you're going for the magic missiles, Fire's probably better since the Flaming component of the default spell is great if you run into an HPA. Doom and Darkness is also a bit risky, since most dangerous Skaven units are either Frenzied, Immune to Psych or Unbreakable and the regiments often aren't worth enough Victory Points to justify casting a huge spell on them. Still, it can be good for general disruption of a Skaven battle line.
The last thing I forgot to mention above are flame templates. Not only can you blanket dozens of rats with a Hydra or Dragon breath weapon, but you're also reducing their Leadership for the Panic and Terror tests that are very likely to ensue. By using smart focus fire, coupled with Breath Weapons and Psychology, it's often easy to create chain-panic in a Skaven battle line.
Shadow Lore:
Not particularly great. Steed of Shadows can be good to help get a combat character into the fight against Jezzails or a Warplightning cannon, but that's pretty situation. The offensive spells don't really do enough damage to really scare Skaven, though Crown of Taidron can be great against weapon teams and skaven skirmishers if you can get into a good enough position to use it. Pit of Shades isn't too great, because all Skaven have fairly high Initiative and even the Hell Pit Abomination is (if I remeber correctly) Initiative 4. The Bell and Furnace wouldn't like it very much, but you'd have to kill their riders first. As far as huge regiment-destroying templates go, Black Horror is a better choice versus Skaven.
Death is a fairly good all-around Lore, and the magic missiles are quite useful while Doom and Darkness can cause some fairly significant problems. If you're going for the magic missiles, Fire's probably better since the Flaming component of the default spell is great if you run into an HPA. Doom and Darkness is also a bit risky, since most dangerous Skaven units are either Frenzied, Immune to Psych or Unbreakable and the regiments often aren't worth enough Victory Points to justify casting a huge spell on them. Still, it can be good for general disruption of a Skaven battle line.
The last thing I forgot to mention above are flame templates. Not only can you blanket dozens of rats with a Hydra or Dragon breath weapon, but you're also reducing their Leadership for the Panic and Terror tests that are very likely to ensue. By using smart focus fire, coupled with Breath Weapons and Psychology, it's often easy to create chain-panic in a Skaven battle line.
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.