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D.R.A.I.C.H. 7th => 8th analysis 
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Corsair
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This is my first analysis of the 8th ed rulebook.
I had the time to read it several times and to compare it to the previous one.
I did not play a game yet but I can tell already that I don't want to go back to 7th edition!
I may complement with new ideas as they arrive.
Your comments are welcome, of course.

A great thanks to olderplayer, whose large imputs are now spread over the whole thread.

This thread is not specific to any army. For DE specifics, see:
D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition.


1. Biggest changes:
No more being totally and hopelessly prevented to move like you wish by march-blocking fast cavalry.
Move faster through terrain. Charge goes much further.
No more killing 1st rank on the charge to prevent all hits back.
Largest units are easily stubborn, using general & BSB nearby.
Magic is now best at medium level, powerful but not overwhelming.
Less importance of psychology.


2. My feeling.
Armies using templates and cannons receive a great boost, so do armies with armoured troops and cheap hordish troops.
DoC and VC lost their psychological edge. Basically, all the underdog armies received a great boost. Hard to tell who will emerge, but overall the game is more balanced.

MSU is probably going to be very difficult. MSU may be replaced by MMU (medium).

Fast cavalry and skirmishers lost a lot of their annoyance for the opponent.
However, they remain invaluable to hunt warmachines and lone survivors who deny us VP by their mere survival.

General, BSB and Wizards are more vital as ever.
However, all kind of characters are more vulnerable than previously, because of many reasons:
- Many snipe spells,
- Huge improvements of all warmachines,
- Monsters are very hard to hide, and all templates hit both monster and rider,
- A Monster has 0 rank, so any unit with 5 models remaining is steadfast (=stubborn) against it,
- Charges easier to get,
- Loss of “Look Out, Sir” if the unit has a different mount than the character,
- 6 models will usually hit any character in melee,
- BSB dies automatically if the unit runs away,
- Dangerous miscasts for magic-users.


Last edited by Calisson on Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:42 pm, edited 11 times in total.



Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:19 pm
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Corsair
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3. Comparison with 7th edition.

3.1. Army list.
25% Lords + 25% Heroes max. 25% Core minimum. 50% special, 25% rare max.
No limits on rare and special number of units, except no more than double rare nor same triple special <3000 pts (and up to 6 specials & 4 rare at >3k).
Units listed as 1-2 for a single choice count as 1.
1 general & 3 units min. These 3 units must not be a character but may not all be core.

Thresholds.
Note that there is no more US5 threshold. A single model can panic whole units it runs across. A single model denies any VP for an almost totally destroyed unit.
The 5 model threshold to make a rank is altered for monstrous infantry/cavalry/beast who need only 3.
There is a new threshold of 10-wide unit to make a horde (6 for MI/MC/MB).
Taking into account the new steadfast rule (the unit with most ranks is stubborn), you can expect FLU (few large units) rather than MSU.

3.2. Movement.
Terrain is much, much more various, in size and in properties (a marsh category has been added, most terrain can be “special” with unique properties). Terrain does not slow down anyone, but can be dangerous, especially for cavalry and chariots. Cavalry charging/moving quickly through difficult terrain/forest/pretty much anything make a dangerous terrain test.

Moving is much easier.
- Moving forwards with wheels, including marching (marching requires Ld test if enemy within 8th and prevents shooting).
- Moving backwards or sideway at half speed (which is 3” for M5 because rounded up) without wheeling – no marching.
- Reform without moving nor shooting. If you have a muso and pass a Ld test, then you can move (but not march) and shoot.
- Fast cav and skirmishers can reform as many time as they wish, and can march and shoot.
- Single models (monsters, chariots, lone infantry...) have 90° LOS but may pivot at will during movement, resulting in much greater mobility than R&F troops.
The 2M limit is clear. Rule abuses seem very unlikely.
Maintain at all time 1” distance to friend or foe or impassable terrain, except in charges/melees.
Overall, moving is faster because terrain does not slow you down, and march-blocking is cancelled with Ld test.

Rally is the same (25% min, but now you can also rally on double 1 a smaller % remaining).
Subsequently you reform, you cannot shoot but you can cast spells.

3.3. Charges.
Charging M+2D6 (or M+highest 2 of 3D6 = swifts-ride rule for flyers/cav) brings you further usually than in 7th edition.
Overall, charging goes even further because terrain does not slow you down and wheels don’t add distance. As long as you charge the unit you declared, you can go and charge much further than the distance rolled. Everyone charges like 7th ed monsters & chariots (move straight, wheel <90°, move straight, touch the target, wheel to close the gap), but the distance is measured initially and directly, not along the path. Obstacles grant a bonus to the defender but do not slow down the charging unit (it may damage it).
Maximizing both sides is still required.
Charging multiple units is allowed if no other option. For multiple charges on single unit, you even up the number of charging models; each unit gets +1CR for charging, it cumulates.
Buildings can now be attacked by pretty much everyone except chariots, even though only infantry (including Monstrous infantry) can garrison them.
Redirecting the charge (once, and with a Ld test) seems natural.

Stand & shoot is resolved once and immediately, so better choose the right unit to shoot at! It works even if the charge is subsequently missed.
Missed charge moves unpredictably, you move the highest dice which has been rolled. M has no influence. You can’t shoot if you failed a charge.

3.4. Melee.
In melee, large units will always strike back because casualties are removed from the rear. Furthermore, the 2nd rank gets 1 attack on the front. Therefore, striking first matters only against small units… or if you wish to kill characters.

Characters can always select to fight, they can move their way across their own unit to address a flank charge (not mandatory).

Weapons are quite the same as before. Great Weapons are now +2 for cavalry as well.

Handweapon & shield provides frontally a parry save , which is a ward save 6+ in melee, instead of a modified save in the 7th ed. The parry save does not stack on other ward saves.
If you have a weapon other than the handweapon, you have to use it.

KB no longer works against monstrous infantry (trolls) or monstrous cavalry, but only regular infantry/cavalry/warbeasts.

Cavalry lance works only during 1st round and if charging, else the rider takes his handweapon.

Initiative regulates who strikes first (who charges is now irrelevant). In case of same I, resolve simultaneously.
ASF combined with higher I => rerolls misses just like hatred. ASF vs ASF = simultaneous.
GW are ASL. ASL + ASF cancels out, use I. ASL vs ASL = simultaneous.

Challenges remained the same.

Armour remains the same, S>3 pierces armour as before. Only change is that regen cannot cumulate with ward save.

Impact hits apply as in 7th ed.

Stomp & Thunderstomp hits apply at the end of the combat phase (all kind of monsters stepping on smaller creatures).
Both count towards CR.

3.5. Combat resolution.
All rank bonuses are counted at the end of the combat.

Bonuses: CR bonus for unit size is gone.
+1CR for charging - it cumulates for each unit charging.
Flank CR bonus +1 and rear attack +2 CR bonus do not require ranks (a lone model suffices) and apply only once each, even if several units flank/rear charge the same unit (you can stack two flank/rear bonus in the same melee only if they apply against different units).
A flank attack made by a unit remaining with two ranks at the end of combat causes 'disruption" to the opposing unit, which means that the opposite unit's rank bonus is lost for CR purposes. You have to bring on their flanks a large unit, keeping the 2 ranks at the end of the melee, to deny opponent’s ranks. This tactics requires an access to a flank (not that difficult, knowing that charging is much easier) and sufficient resistance to keep your 2 ranks (this can be achieved with strong armour or with extra ranks). That large flanker is itself in danger to be flank-charged if the melee stalls.
Banners did not change: +1 for having one or more pennants, +1 for BSB, not forgetting warbanners and the like.

Steadfast: The unit with the most ranks is steadfast, i.e. stubborn. Stubborn in 12” range uses the general’s Ld and the BSB reroll. Therefore, many armies will get a 5xR unit where “R” (ranks) is hopefully much higher than the opponent.
Important: the steadfast rule applies for a unit with more ranks at the end of combat even if it is disrupted by a flank-charge (the rank bonus is gone, but the steadfast rule remains).
If your “R” is smaller, you need to grind down the opposite “R” – and keep yours as high as possible.

Reforms: If the melee keeps going on, winner can reform, looser can reform if Ld test (minus lost CR except if steadfast).

Killing standards. If the loser fails the break test, its standards and BSB are lost (in addition to previous losses). Standards bring only 25VPs. BRB brings 100 VPs.

Pursuit. Winner pursues or (if Ld test) stays & reforms. Hatred has no more mandatory effect. Destroying the enemy => free reform.
If pursuing, it can catch & destroy the fleeing unit, and can make a new charge (only once).

A fleeing unit is not destroyed by foes or terrain (even impassable!), but each model has to pass a difficult terrain test. Fleeing units can panic friends.

Tactics:
Steadfast is going to play a large role and I expect many armies to run at least a very large unit and a nearby general & BSB, in order to guarantee more ranks than the opponent. However, too many eggs in a single basket may risk a failed Ld test, even a rerolled one on General's Ld.
If there is no steadfast/stubborn unit, then you could try to use the fact that each charging units gets a cumulative +1CR, or just play an aggressive Active Combat Resolution. Against medium/small units, MSU is still a great tactics; it is just against very large units that it will fail miserably.

3.6. Psychology.
Psychology is less a constraint:

Terror does not anymore affect by the mere presence in vicinity. Terror check is now only caused when a terror-causing unit charges a unit not immune to terror (ITP, causing fear/terror itself). Failed terror check will cause unit to flee. However, a unit can be terrorized more than once.

Fear checks are made at the beginning of the close combat phase, if not immune. Failed fear check leads to enemy unit having WS=1 during combat. No influence to charge reaction or after winning melee.

Flaming attacks cause fear to beasts & cavalry. And it is easy to get a magic flaming buff!

Panic happens exactly for the same conditions as in 7th ed, but there is no more the US5 condition… So a single model fleeing across can trigger panic into a whole horde!

Psychology tactics could be great against low Ld hordes: you concentrate on the flanking units rather than on the large horde, and trigger panic to the large units! If this fails, then you have now access to the horde's flanks.

Stupid units are now ITP, seemingly even if they pass their test.

Hatred does not affect anymore mounts. It does not anymore force to pursuit (only Frenzy does now).

3.7. Monsters & chariots, & riders.
Monsters & Chariots are “single models”, able to turn on the spot as many times as they wish. No wheeling. This allows swift move backwards or sideways, contrary to non-skirmishing/fast cav rank & file units.

Monsters are no more US5, because US is now irrelevant.

Handlers are now just an extension of the unit, the models are ignored and the hydra is no more skirmishing through terrain. An unsaved wound kills a handler instead on 5-6 on D6. The hydra is an exception for that randomizing, as the FAQ specifies that this rule is ignored.

Chariots are no more destroyed by S7. They do not impact anymore when fleeing.
They can now move (cautiously) through terrain unharmed, but take risks of dangerous terrain if they charge/flee/whatever else done swiftly.

Riders & mounts: Even though cavalry & rider is treated as a single model, this is not the case for monsters & chariots.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to the whole model. Frenzy transfer to whole model except additional attack. All other psy do not transfer, so no more hatred for mounts. .

3.8. Skirmishers & Fast Cavalry.
Skirmishers run in fixed formation with models 1/2" apart.
Skirmishers now have front/rear/flanks/90°LOS. They have no rank (so the 2nd rank does not get supportive attacks, as there is no 2nd rank). However, they are the only ones (along with fast cav) to be able to reform at will, to march and shoot, when all other troops must pass a Ld test to be able to shoot after a reform & move (not march). Flying units are skirmishers.

Fast cav has no more 360°LOS, but they can shoot above infantry thanks to true LOS.
They DO have ranks now!
Feign flights remain as in 7th ed. A joining character cancels the fast cav rule.
Fast cavalry has Vanguard (free 12” move with no march before starting game => can’t charge if playing first).
They can be compared to scouts who deploy at 12” of enemy and cannot charge if playing first. Either ones are vital to get rid early of warmachines.

3.9. Flyers.
Flyers move 10” and march 20”. This means that, sometimes, they’ll fail their Ld test to march and will remain close to trouble. They charge at 10+2D6 (take highest 2 of 3D6). Flying units are skirmishers, flying lone monsters can turn on the spot at will, so, in practical game, no flyer has to ever actually wheel, except during a charge. They flee and pursue on the ground (but still get the SwiftsRide rule – 2 best of 3D6).

3.10. Characters.
Characters did not change a lot. However, many new rules affect them tremendously. They cannot anymore hope to kill all foes in contact and avoid retaliation. Sniping has become easier for cannons and magic. Magic items wielded by the opponent are more varied. Regen excludes WS. I see a great use for assassins in character killing!
Note that stubborn uses the character’s Ld now (he becomes stubborn inside a stubborn unit) or the general’s Ld.

Joining a unit did not change much.
A character on a monstrous beast (i.e. Pegasus) – but not on a monster or a chariot – may now join a unit. Sure, they will get no “Look Out, Sir”, but regular shooting is allocated by the owner of the unit, so if you hide your Peggy character inside 20 infantrymen and only 1 in 21 shots will hit him.
“Look Out, Sir” works only within the same category (cavalry vs cavalry, monstrous cavalry for M.cav…), but it works also if the character is alone outside the unit, at 3” (working on a 4-6 instead of 2-6).

A general on a large mount has 18” range (but makes a great shooting target). A BSB on a large mount gets 18" as well. Otherwise, both influence at 12" as previously.
I foresee many armies to wish to use a general with high Ld and his BSB, both hidden in safety behind stubborn units.

The BSB being destroyed for a failed morale test at the end of a combat, in addition to previous losses, you will see less BSB charging within medium-size cavalry units, seeking a great active combat resolution. Instead, BSB will be more often seen heading units with many, many ranks, or alternatively alone, behind the main battleline, and never charging themselves.

3.11. Command groups.
Command groups did not change a lot except musicians, essential to get a free reform before moving.
Standards are more easily captured (and this removes one additional model) but bring only 25VP.
Champions killing characters bring 50 VP. Champions remain like tier-2 characters in melee, challenges, look out, Sir…They die only when all R&F died, then muso, standard and last is the champion (unless singled out in melee).

3.12. Shooting.
True LOS : Shooting is now made in 2 ranks, and with LOS from the eye of the shooter to the body of the target (the 2nd rank uses the 1st rank’s eyes). So a mounted unit has no difficulty to shoot across an infantry unit without fearing any charge (you may see stubborn infantry screening light shooting cavalry instead of the reverse!).

All 3 kinds of bows can shoot with half of remaining ranks.
As a result of 6 wounds any T now, a shower of arrows can wound anything.

Thrown weapons & pistols are now “quick to fire”. Former 8” ranges are usually increased to 12”, they do suffer a range penalty but can always S&S.

Covers seem quite natural, and you get hard covers behind troops (friend & foes). Large target are denied any cover behind light obstacles.

Sidenote: if a model has AP, now it applies only in melee. Don't plan to enhance your shooting with the AP banner. Of course, the shooting weapons with AP grant it for shooting.

3.13. Template shooting.
Templates (including cannons) are much more dangerous than before: no more guessing ranges, and all partial are hit.
All cannons make D6 wounds now.

Look out, Sir works only for models of the same nature (infantry/infantry…) but works outside of the unit (3”, 4-6 instead of 2-6 on D6). Hard times for massed infantry and for characters.

Breath weapons work only once in a battle, but it can be in melee (2D6 autohits).

3.14. Warmachines.
Warmachines crews don’t seem to have physical existence, they are more like counters. No character can join them (except engineers). They don’t move through non-open terrain (but can start on top of a building or from inside a forest). They are not slowed down if loosing a crew.
If the crew ever leaves the machine, both are lost and removed: no more getting to an abandoned warmachine, no more lone skirmishers.
When they panic, they just loose a round of fire.
Cannons and bolt throwers remained quite the same. Powder warmachines can explode more often (1-2 on D6).

3.15. Victory.
The victory conditions have been edited by a short insert, placed inside the new Rulebook.
Victory happens if you wipe your opponent off, or if you score 100 VPs more than your opponent (a minor victory); 2 times opponent's victory points (even if 200 VPs vs 100 VPs) is a crushing victory.

No more ¼ table VP. 100 VP for general or BSB, 25 only for standards.
One single scenario favours having many standards in addition to VPs.

Units grant VP for total destruction or fleeing off the table.
No more VP for partial destruction (everything is now like 7th ed warmachines). I.e., Killing a Lord but leaving one wound to his dragon, you get no VP for either.
No more VPs for fleeing units which are still on the table. Rallying in turn 6 is not vital anymore. Winning a melee on last turn has no effect if you cannot manage to overrun that unit.

Pts denial strategy. As a result, units that are quite impossible to destroy to the last man are outstanding pts denial. The last few men of a unit will hide for safety and try pts denial => there is a need for scavengers (shooters or quick chargers like harpies).
I foresee a tendency for increased point denial strategy, with 50% of the army made of characters flying on monsters and 50% made of few very hard to kill über-units.
One army list option could be a highly evasive list, shooting at distance (killing one single unit is enough) and avoiding all losses. Example: 25% characters & 25% lords on flying beasts, killing at distance.

Now, we will see people chasing around small depleted units late in the game to get those VPs and people running away and hiding small depleted units to avoid VPs. One could kill almost all of a horde unit, but, if it does not panic or flee off the board, or if it rallies on double 1's, then you get no points.

3.16. Magic.
This phase promises to become highly interesting. Magic had a tremendous overhaul.
Instead of inciting players to go all magic or no magic, it encourages a medium magic.
Magic is more powerful, but if you take too many magic-users, they will lack PD.

No spell can be taken twice in an army except the basic spells. You cannot spam spell.
You have more chances to get the spells you wish (you don’t reroll doubles but choose, and as you cannot get twice the same spell, several wizards will get all spells once).

PD are generated by 2D6, plus a few unlikely scarce PD. you can roll 1+1=2 PD… or 6+6=12PD.

Wizards add their level to casting and dispel, but if they fail, they can’t do anything anymore during this phase. A natural 1 or 2 fails, a natural double 6 is IF in both casting and dispelling. This incites to get level 3 or 4. However, it is very risky to make your Level 4 the general because of miscasts and overall character vulnerability.

More DD are available, but there is a single Dispel Scroll per army, however. Scrolls are excellent, there are new scrolls with strange effects, but they are limited to 1 per wizard. This also encourages a medium magic rather than a single scroll caddy.

Spells are all useful now. Many spells are augmentation for your troops, or on the contrary hex to hamper your opponent.
Direct damage spell need no LOS but must lie within forward arc. Another category, Magic Missiles, are just like in 7th edition. Neither DD nor MM can target a melee, and a wizard in melee cannot cast MM.
Spells include snipe; many spells affect a whole unit or all units within 12”. Therefore, a concentration of units, or very large units, are under threat of magic.
Double 6 makes IF and triggers a miscast (so does Ring of Hotek), but not double 1. Miscasts are horrible, sometimes affect a large template around the caster.

Magic resistance adds to ward save, it provides no more dispel bonus.

Bound objects need PD to get triggered. If they miscast, the object vanishes.

My suggested settings. Some possible wizard combos I expect:
- 1 or 2 Wizard level 1 for Fire spell #0.
- A level 2 designed to cast once in a game 1 spell with IF. You want to have a single spell cast once with IF and allow your caster to vanish in the process.
- A Wizard level 4. Casts 1 to 4 spells easy. Near certain to get the spell he wishes. Complemented with a Level 2.
- Balanced: 3 level 2 or 2 level 3. Each casts 1 or 2 spells. Good dispelling.
- Expect to see two casters, one lvl 2 and one lvl 4 and the lvl 4 running outside a unit. You need the lvl 4 for dispel boost and magic items besides dispel scroll (esp item that gives +1 DD after dispel attempt) are useful. This will generally require two casters.

Lores must be chosen in advance, not after seeing the army one is facing.

Failing to cast. If a caster rolls a natural 1 or 2 of total casting roll or fails to cast spell, the caster is done, so cast the last easy spells with very high probability and 2 power dice first and then cast the big spell with 2 or 3 PD last.

High casting spells. Avoid 4 PD casting efforts, unless last spell, willing to take the miscasts with irresistible force, late in the game, able to re-roll and/or the caster has POK and is not in a unit.


Last edited by Calisson on Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 23 times in total.



Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:21 pm
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Corsair
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4. Units categories (grouped according to properties, not strictly according to the rulebook).

4.1 Swarms.
Swarms = Skirmisher, unbreakable (=> ITP, passes all breaks).
They can theoretically make hordes and large units but gain not much by doing so, as they are already unbreakable (one more attack on 2nd rank…)
They are Squish/Unstable (loose 1 extra wound per loss combat pt) => they loose ~2 wounds instead of 1 in combat.
Comment: Tar pits loosing their wounds real quick in melee, but more resistant for shooting (skirmishers).
Good to tar pit and get side charges later, or as a small annoyance unit.

4.2 Infantry.
Only marshes are dangerous terrain for infantry.

Hordes (10 wide) are useful for 30 of them or 40 spears. It allows a 3rd rank supporting attack (4th spear attack).
Comment: not very likely to be steadfast. Sides need protection, otherwise the unit will be grinded progressively. Not that good a tar pit.

Large units: 20 minimum to realistically use the Steadfast rule (stubborn on General’s Ld if more ranks). 2nd rank supporting attack.
Comment: Excellent tar pit frontally. Sides need protection in order to avoid being grinded progressively.
I'll quote the excellent comment from Bitterman:
The only use I see for hordes is for units that are so cheap they can be both hordes and steadfast (eg. 100 Gnoblars at 2 points each, 100 Goblins at 3-4 points each) or units that are naturally Unbreakable or Stubborn (one of our gaming group is getting a lot of success with a horde of 40 Ghouls). In either case, some kind of "trick" to get some actual benefit from the extra attacks is also essential (Sharp Stuff for Gnoblars, Poisoned Attacks for Ghouls or Goblins with the Spider Banner, etc), as normally troops that cheap just aren't that frightening even with a few extra attacks.
For just about any other unit I think they're better off with smaller units and/or steadfast. At 6-7ppm, DE Spearmen make a far better tarpit with steadfast on Ld 8+.

Small units: They risk destruction by shooting or melee, giving away easy VP. MSU can work only against small or medium units, not against large ones.

4.3 Shooting infantry.
Only marshes are dangerous terrain for them.

Horde units of 30 can work, as 2 ranks can shoot and 3 ranks can fight. However, it is cumbersome.

Large units of 20 or more for Steadfast is unlikely as only 2 ranks can shoot.

Small units are interesting as it allows different targets.

Shooting aims at 90° frontage. True LOS for 1st rank. 2nd rank see same as 1st rank. LOS = unblocked line between eyes and head/torso/arms/legs. Not wings/tail. You can therefore see above another unit!

Stand & shoot done immediately, at a range considered to be at the unit’s shortest ranged weapon, even if actual range is out of range. Fails if distance <M. If charge fails, the S&S is still done. S&S can be done only against 1 unit only.

Swift reform if musician+Ld test, then can move & shoot, but not march. If fail test, they reform but cannot move nor shoot.
If marches or reforms, cannot shoot.

Bow, Longbow, Shortbow have Volley: half of 3rd and subsequent ranks may fire. Cannot volley if moved.

4.4 Flyers, Skirmishers.
Flyers are infantry skirmishers with M10, moving over anything. Dangerous test if start/end flight in forest.
Spaced out formation, 90°LOS, otherwise regular. -1 to be shot. No more loose formation, no more 360°LOS.
Zero rank, no steadfast. Supportive attacks remain.
Free reform any time. Fire on march/reform.
Footed characters become skirmisher with that unit. Mounted characters cannot join them.
Nothing is dangerous terrain. Stubborn if majority inside a forest. Marshland is not a dangerous terrain for them only.

Scouts deploy anywhere at >12” of foe.

Footed characters can join skirmishers. Look out, Sir from infantry.

Comment: These units seem very useful to destroy warmachines and to scavenge last survivors.

4.5 Fast Cavalry.
They have ranks now, but shoot 90° LOS and in 2 ranks.
Any terrain save hill is dangerous if they move swifstly. Marshes are double danger. Cannot enter a building but can attack it (dismounted). The 2nd rank can make a support attack (not the mount).

Horde with 30 of them is only theoretical.

Large unit with 20 of them to become Steadfast (stubborn on General’Ld if more ranks) costs too much.

Small units can be used, but beware not to give too easy VPs. They may cancel Steadfast with a side charge.

Vanguard (free 12 move before starting the game, with no march => can’t charge if playing first).
Compare to scouts who deploy at 12” of enemy and cannot charge if playing first = same result to hunt warmachines.

Free reform any time. Fire on march/reform. Feign flight (reform + moves + shoots).

Joining character make loose the “fast cav” rule.

4.6 Monstrous Infantry / Beasts / Cavalry (including Pegasus).
These are different category, remember that Look Out, Sir works only for within the same category.
Beasts / Monstrous Cavalry = Swifts-ride. For Cavalry: Any terrain save hill is dangerous if they move swifstly. Marshes are double danger.
They become horde if 6 wide, and a rank is 3 wide. Monstrous infantry 2nd rank gets supporting attack with 3 attacks.
They stomp = ASL autohit on infantry, warbeast or swarm.
Mounted characters on cavalry/monstrous cavalry. Can join same type of unit.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model.

Pegasus now merges its stats with its rider! It is treated as a single model. When one is slain, the other one is gone as well.
Use Rider's Ld and Toughness, WS in defense. Use Mount's M. Use highest Wounds stats, i.e. heroes can get 3 wounds!
Rider & Mount use their own WS, S, I and A when they attack, and can choose different opponents.

4.7 Cavalry, War beasts.
Dangerous terrain test for any terrain (save hills) if they move swifstly.
Rider only can assault buildings, but not garrison inside it.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model. Stupidity => ITP, even when not stupid. Fear is less useful as it used to be. No more hatred on mounts.
Frenzy transfer to whole model except additional attack. The 2nd rank can make a support attack (not the mount).
Horde with 30 of them is only theoretical.
Large unit with 20 of them to become Steadfast (stubborn on General’Ld if more ranks), with 2nd rank single supporting attack, can be done, for a huge cost. To be examined thoroughly.
Small units rely on the good armour save in order not to give too easy VPs.

4.8 Chariots.
Charge: Impacts D6.
Dangerous terrain test makes D6 wounds (except for normal move). No assault on buildings.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model.

4.9 Monsters.
Thunderstomp = D6 ASL autohit on infantry, warbeast or swarm.
Large target cannot claim cover behind obstacles and are very hard to hide from true LOS. Marshes are dangerous.
Terror is less useful, it works only when charging a specific unit.
Can attack a building but not enter it. No more US, so they cannot anymore break ranks. Worse, any unit with 5 models in a rank is steadfast (i.e. strubborn) when fighting only a monster, because 1 rank > 0 rank.
Handlers: totally ignored for movement. Provide more attacks (their own) and more wounds (killed instead of a monster wound on 5-6). If all killed, monster reaction. However, the hydra remained specific: its handlers cannot ever be killed. It seems that they just provide additional attacks, and vanish when the hydra is killed.
Breath weapon once a game, either on shooting or in melee. Melee: 2D6 autohits.
Mounted characters on monster/chariot cannot join other units.
Character on a monster => +1 AS!
Shooting: 5-6 character, 1-4 mount. Template hits both, randomize the centre of the template.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model.
Monster mount is a monster.
General on large beast has 18” Ld range instead of 12”. Same for BSB.
You can now run two hydras with two RBTs at 2200 points or higher.

4.10 Warmachines.
Move as fast as crew (no more slowed down if missing crew). All terrain except open ground and hills are impassable. Exception, it can start from within a terrain, and never move.
All tests are failed except T and Ld.
Cannot flee a charge, just hold. If ever it flees, the warmachine is destroyed and the crew vanishes.
War machine wounds are combined now in combined profile like Skaven army book for warp lightning cannon. Shooting (and magic) at WM uses T of machine (crew can use for cover) and AS and ward saves of crew.
WM has no flanks or rear. In combat, max of six normal models can attack a war machine. Cavalry & monstrous inf/cav/beasts counts for 3, monsters for 5. Use crew T, AS and ward save for attacks on war machine and use crew WS and S for attacks by war machine as they cower under the machine but does not cause the war machine crew to flee.
If ever it panics, it looses one shooting round.
Stone throwers can shoot indirectly.
Templates autohit even partials. They hit all parts of multipart models.
Units listed as 1-2 for a single choice count as 1.

4.11 Ethereal creatures.
Now they exist in the rulebook. Deal magic attacks. Can be harmed only by magic/magic weapons. Cannot be slowed own and ignore all terrain. No character may join them.
I assume that each rulebook gives them the “unstable” rule, but this is not automatic.

4.12 Wizards.
Cannot join a warmachine.
90° LOS even if footed.
Look Out, Sir on 4+ if alone but at 3” from a unit of the same type (infantry, cavalry, monstrous cavalry…).
Look out Sir on 2+ if inside a unit of the same type (infantry, cavalry…).

4.13 Characters.
The mount is… paramount, as Look Out, Sir works only with a unit using the same category of mount.
Characters on chariots & monsters cannot join units.
Characters on a Pegasus can join units (no look out, Sir, but it allows to avoid most arrows).
Characters in melee have to prepare to face the attacks of 3 models in contact plus 3 models behind: even if the front rank is wiped away, more come from the back ranks and are allowed to strike back.
Challenges are going to be vital to preserve their lives. The best spot for a BSB will be on a corner (because of the maximizing rule, so less opponents may be in contact), with a champion next to him in order to take challenges (if the challenger is too fearsome).


Last edited by Calisson on Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:28 am, edited 10 times in total.



Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:23 pm
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I may complement with new ideas as they arrive.
Your comments are welcome, of course.

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Last edited by Calisson on Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:32 pm
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Wow Calisson, you need a life. Very good work indeed.
Quote:
3.6 Monstrous Infantry / Beasts / Cavalry. None DE.
These are different category, remember that Look Out, Sir works only for within the same category.
Beasts / Monstrous Cavalry = Swifts-ride. For Cavalry: Any terrain save hill is dangerous if they move swifstly. Marshes are double danger.
They become horde if 6 wide, and a rank is 3 wide. Monstrous infantry 2nd rank gets supporting attack with 3 attacks.
They stomp = ASL autohit on infantry, warbeast or swarm.
Mounted characters on cavalry/monstrous cavalry. Can join same type of unit.
Fear/terror, stupidity, immune to Psy/fear/terror/panic transfer to whole model.

Could not find out in the rules what models get "thunderstomp" rule?
I would assume large targets?
Edit; Monsters get Thunderstomp so see Bestiary in BRB for type.
Note that A WoC DP now gets "Thunderstomp"

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Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:36 pm
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Right: monsters. But not monstrous cavalry/infantry/beasts (including our Dark Pegasus), which have the mere "stomp".
For us dragon, hydra, manti have "thunderstomp".

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Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:26 pm
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is it true that the KB rule will work on targets of same size or smaller? Eg. A manti with KB can KB other large targets???!

edit: how do you personally perceive the new 'power tree' to be? (Daemons, DEs and VCs were high up that list previously with Lizzies and Skaven etc fairly 'up there' too...)

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:48 am
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Thanks for posting and overall excellent.

I've compiled detail notes/cheat sheets on the new rules for simulation and play-testing and have a few edits and items to check.
Item 2.1 The rare and special language could be misread. It should say no limits on rare and special units but no more than two duplicate rare units and no more than three duplicate special units. Two units that count as one rare choice or special choice count as only one for duplicate limit purposes. This means at 2500 points (which is being used as the standard for now in our area for 8th ed.) one can take two Hydras and two RBTs or one hydra and four RBTs.

2.4 needs to be reworked a bit. ASF+ASL cancel each other out; if initiative is equal models strike simultaneously; GW means ASL; a model must use its special weapon in combat if able unless special rule says otherwise; you cannot have a shield and use the handweapon for the parry save if you have a magic weapon or other weapon; parry save for shield plus handweapon is 6+ ward save (non-cumulative with other ward saves)

Rank CR bonus counts at the end of combat. Flank CR bonus +1 and rear attack CR bonus does not require ranks. A flank attack with two ranks remaining at the end of combat causes 'distruption" to the opposing unit which means that the rank bonus is lost for CR purposes and can be huge in denying LD bonus vs. skaven but the steadfast rule applies for a unit with more ranks at the end of combat even if it is disrupted. CR bonus for unit size is gone. Also, don't underestimate the ability to win CR and break a large unit that is steadfast due to having more ranks, especially since the general and BSB cannot be everywhere. If they combat their formation, then they create room to move and flank.

Thunderstomp (D6 hits after all other attacks in close combat have been resolved) is specifically given to models classified as monsters: dragons, manticores and hydras for us. Large targets are typically monsters unless unique models with special army book rules. The bummer is they made the Hellpit Abom a monster, which is did not need, and should be classified as unique.

2.8 Skirmishers run in fixed formation with models 1/2" apart and have 180 degree LOS according to my notes

2.12 Large targets do not get hard cover or soft cover protection from shooting and can be shot through forests and obstacles and behind other units if their head or torso can be seen at all.

2.15 GW did not think through or consider victory conditions in play-testing and screwed them up (apparenly aren't concerned with tourney play, empires campaigns, etc. even if sponsored by GW). The victory conditions have been changed/editted by a short insert and are only suggestions on page 420 of the BRB are inconsistent. In one place says any margin of victory on VPs in the non-opjective-based scenarios and then "suggests" a victory condition of 2 times victory points of opponent. The revised insert says a minor victory is a 100 victory point margin and 2 times opponent's victory points (even if 200 vps vs 100 vps) is a crushing victory. Total screw up. Also, don't mind them removing table quarters and reducing the points for banners to encourage banners, but why the change to all or nothing for units and models? Is GW says that killing more than 50% of a unit means nothing and should not count for something? Now, we will see people chasing around small depleted units late in the game to get those vps and people running away and hiding small depleted units to avoid vps. One could kill almost all of a horde unit, but, if it does not panic or flee off the board or rallies on double 1's, then you get no points. Kind of silly. Also, loss of unit strength is kind of goofy for mixed units, like skink and krox units.

2.16 Expect to see two casters, one lvl 2 and one lvl 4 and the lvl 4 running outside a unit. You need the lvl 4 for dispel boost and magic items besides dispel scroll (esp item that gives +1 DD after dispel attempt) are useful. This will generally require two casters. A focus familiar can be invaluable for hiding the lvl 4 (put her on a peg or a flying carpet) and extending her range by 6" with 180 degree (or 360 with FAQ?) LOS. Lore of Life is very good and a Slann with Lore of Life can be devastatingly effective (esp. with the spell to prevent miscasts on 2+ and also boost the other Life spells). Fire is likely our best alternative to Dark Magic but our 5 and 6 spells are very good against horde units and much easier to cast with a Lvl 4. Lores must be chosen in advance, not after seeing the army one is facing. If a caster rolls a natural 1 or 2 of total casting roll or fails to cast spell, the caster is done, so cast the last easy spells with very high probability and 2 power dice first and then cast the big spell with 2 or 3 PD last. PoD is great for ensuring enough PD when the 2D6 winds of magic roll is low and will eat up dispel dice. Use the Pok for the Lvl 4. You can now run a Lvl 4 with a dreadlord effectively at 2500 points and both will have good magic protection and stuff (both can have ward saves with new common magic items). Avoid 4 Pd casting efforts, unless last spell, willing to take the miscasts with irresistible force, late in the game, able to re-roll and/or the caster has POK and is not in a unit. Some of the most improved lores are the four lores not available to our casters but a combo of fire and dark magic should be a likely default unless you are sure of playing a heavy armoured army like WoC, then might look at metal. Not sure about death or shadow in testing and they appear to be situational and depend on the army faced.


Killing blow only works on a standard sized model (20 mm or 25 mm base or "man-sized" model even if mounted on something big). You need "heroic killing blow" to kill monster-sized creatures/models.


Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:51 am
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3.2 and 3.3 WE are likely to be unable to survive long in combat against larger units due to no AS and low T of 3 and step up rule allowing strikes back. They should be used as smaller units for flanking near COB only (maybe with ward save blessing). The have good I, which will allow for first strikes that can rack up CR against cheap horde units. They will survive better when hitting flanks due to lack of supporting attacks and may have value protecting a COB and killing high value targets (sacrficing themselves) with high T and little AS due to poison.

Execs suffer from ASL. The T of 3 and relatively modest AS limits the ability to survive and strike back, maybe if near COB and with ward save, they can be used in small units for flank attacks where the supporting attacks are not a threat.

BG limited by 20 max size (unless FAQ) and ASF banner does not benefit nearly as much as before given continuing hatred anyway and relatively high I. Still have important role with stubborn, ITP and ability to flank and tar pit.

You should note that having a general or BSB (re-roll all LD tests) nearby with a musician can allow a large spear unit to reform into max ranks or max attacks (three ranks of attacks when not in horde). Our spearmen are just expensive enough to not justify horde width of 10 in most instances, although can be very effective against weaker, low T, lower AS hordes and will likely get I and win extended combat.

RHB corsairs with SSS banner really benefit from being quickto stirke and shooting in two ranks and fighting in two ranks. Run close to COB can give them KB, +1 A, or Ward save as needed, as likely to be a unit more exposed to shooting and magic (some AS benefit from cloak). The single attack from the second rank reduces the value of two HW relative to increasing the value of RHBs. Put a master in with good armour with muso and the unit can get in enough damage vs horde units to deplete the horde before combat and likely get enough damage in to horde units to win CR and deplete ranks of horde enough to allow flank attacks and destroy horde unit on break test (even if stubborn with lower LD hordes). If horde, only run up to 30 with three ranks of 10 wide but 2 ranks of 10 wide is sufficient to max shooting and attacks.

RXB's are much better with two ranks of shooting. Put shields on for parry save and extra AS from shooting and magic attacks. Run two ranks and wide initially with master w armour and/or ward and muso to max shooting and ability to reform. 2x 10 is good formation, as not so deep, making harder to hit/fewer to hit with template attacks and line attacks. Can reform to max ranks if needed, but usually better to just move strategically to max number of turns and shots before combat.


Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:13 am
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3.4 to 3.5 harpies are now much worse. Have to be able to march to fly 20" and charge range is actually less than before and more risky. Cannot ensure striking first but will have to check against various warmachine crews. Only 6 can attack a warmachine on the charge. May have to consider dark riders with vanguard rule to go after/threaten warmachines with vanguard move and still vulnerable to shooting, magic and charges. Might be able to get right up to war machines or on or behind a flank on turn one (cannot charge), especially if get to go first and not facing a horde army. Both harpies and dark riders lost much of their ability to march block and bait and flee. Frenzy does not cause a mandatory charge and harpies and dark riders only flee 2D6 (with swiftstride), instead of 3D6. Since chargers get M+2D6, the dark rider and harpies will have to stay a few inches beyond m to ensure that they don't get caught when charged. Also, a failed charge allows for a free reform with a successful LD test, which will not leave failed chargers as vulnerable to flank and rear attacks.

3.9 Monsters Additional items: Terror check only caused when they charge a unit not immune to terror. Failed terror check will cause unit to flee. Fear check at beginning of close combat phase if not immune. Failed fear check leads to enemy unit having ws=1 during combat. BSB on large mount has 18" range. Can now run two hydras with two RBTs at 22250 and 2500 points.

COB is listed a unique in beastiery in BRB now and not subject to war machine rules. Only RBT is war machine. War machine wounds are combined now in combined profile like Skaven army book for warp lightning cannon. Shooting (and magic?) at WM uses T of machine (crew can use for cover) and AS and ward saves of crew. WM has no flanks or rear. In combat, max of six normal models can attack a war machine in close combat, but monstrous infantry, monst. cav and monstrous beasts count as 3 normal sized models. Use crew T, AS and ward save for attacks on war machine and use crew WS and S for attacks by war machine.

A failed panic test causes the crew of the war machine to lose a turn of shooting as they cower under the machine but does not cause the war machine crew to flee.


Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:33 am
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nice review/rundown, I have played alot of 8th ed games now, 14 in total and I'm looking forward to playing my new dark elf army! thundrstomp is scary on a bloodthirster so on a hydra......I for one will be using LSU(large) but no hoard formations for my DE perhaps the 20 corsairs for a shoot then stand and shoot. I think Blackguard are still the #1 pick as I6 are boys in black will be striking before pretty much anything.(barring those accursed asur) Also have a look at CoK there I6 and str4 is mighty tempting on a flank charge,just be sure to lock the front of the unit so your oppent doesn;t reform on you! All in all I love *th and can't wait to the 10th so I can finaly buy a copy!

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:53 am
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Thanks olderplayer for chacking and improving.
I posted somehow in a hurry without reading back sufficiently, contrary to my habits - I assumed that in the present situation, better hurry up with a merely acceptable thread than provide a perfect product long after July 10th!

I'll edit the posts above with your information.


@ Dangerous Beans
No, KB effective only against infantry, cavalry adn war beasts.
There is a Heroic KB which works on anything but swarm.
The Manti has the normal KB, not the heroic one.

Sorry, I am not proficient in DoC, VC, LM or Skaven, I cannot make any comment about them.
For sure, Empire and Dwarves will get a boost, they are going to be a great pain with their improved gunpowder warmachines.
O&G (especially goblins) will spam very cheap characters & wizards and warmachines, and align real hordes.
For sure, present DE 7th ed tactics are bound to fail. Same for HE.


This is now up to us to develop new army lists and new tactics.
DE never was easy to play. Our previous army book was underdog. Our present AB with 7th ed provided us with plenty of cheap tricks which made our lives easy and our foes' painful. These cheap tricks are gone, it's time to find clever tricks - or get green paint and play whaaagh.

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:58 am
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Thanks for a nice post. English isn't my first language, so I'm not the one to ask, but I can see some grammar and spelling issues that could be straightened out.

One thing though, on section 2.4. The other day I saw a guy claiming to quote the new book, saying that "ASL vs ASL strikes simultaneously, no matter of initiative". For some reason I trust you more, but could you confirm this?

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:24 am
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Lord Tsunami, English is not mine either, but I strive to get tehe best quality I can achieve.
I'm glad to receive any improvement, the final quality is only what matters.

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:14 am
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Lord T.

The guy you were talking to is correct.

ASL v ASL OR ASF v ASF = strike simultaneously.

ASL + ASF = strike at regular initiative.

I.e. Executioners with greatweapons will strike last even when fighting a Saurus warrior that has I2.

But if we give ASF banner via a hag bsb to our Executioners then the ASL from greatweapon and ASF from banner cancel out. So our Ececutioners would fight at I5

again. Say black guard are fighting executioners. in 7th if the executioners had ASF they would attack first. in 8th because executioners have ASL AND ASF they fight at I5 so the black guard at i6 would strike 1st.

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:15 am
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:oops: ASL vs ASL corrected. Thanks.
Also, I've finished to take into account olderplayer's posts.
I do not concur with 180° LOS for skirmishers & single models, I have not seen it, so I stick with 90° frontally.

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:52 am
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yes ALL units now have 90 degree sight arc.

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Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:03 pm
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Thanks. I won't have time to look for where in the book the 180 degree LOS might be and verify that one issue. Have 7th ed tourney Saturday (where will get the book as part of the deal) and have to work until then. Once the book is in hands,

It is clearly in my notes that single models have 180 degree LOS, but don't know about skirmishers and after taking 60+ pages of notes, play-testing and then rechecking at GW in book or w staff everything is a bit of a blur. I found the note that single units have 180 degree LOS but units are 90 degree, and it is also on Warseer rumors page (not updated since access t the book). Also, FF may allow more rotation of LOS under rules, esp. with lone sorceror.


Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:21 am
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I edited the whole thread.
The present thread is not linked anymore to any specific army.
For DE specifics, see:
D.R.A.I.C.H. Dark Elves units under 8th edition.
It contains all the parts specific to DE (including olderplayer's) that were initially present above - and much more!

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Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:41 pm
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Thank-YOu Very much. This is very helpful!

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Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:25 pm
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3.5 (CR) is missing +1 CR for a banner ( to a maximum of +1, even if you have multiple banners) and +1 for a battle standard.

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Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:46 pm
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Edited.
I did not included them in the first place because it is not a change, but your comment shows that I should have mentioned something. Done now.

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Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:31 pm
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