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What worked, and didn't work in 8th :) 
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 263
I just gathered my thoughts after two 2500 pt. invasions of The Empire, and thought I'd share it with you.

Troops

I used a Dreadlord tarpit in both games. Basically a lord on a dark steed with Crown of Command, PoK and either armor of Darkness or Crimson Death. He "rocked"! Granting Ld 10 where needed, and able to hold up any unit in the game. Also with the lack of US, he is great for hitting flanks and rears.

In both games I brought a Supreme Sorceress too. One Lvl 4 with black amulet and focus familiar with PoD with Dark Magic. And in the other a Lvl 3 with 4+ ward, sacrificial dagger (and a flock of spearmen) and Shadow Magic. In both games magic was rather abysmal on both sides (okay, the empire often had more DD than me) and the in the second he conceded after two turns, so it never really had a chance to shine. Though there was a glorious miscast in the first game, that killed a bunch of corsairs.
My thoughts was that with the increased lethality of miscasts and no need for LoS on most spells, then to run mages as lone characters, as they benefit from 4+ "Look Out, Sir!" and then a ward save for added security, to negate the consequences of miscasts.

I then ran a CoB BSB in the second game too to support a horde of executioners and throng of witch elves. Needless to say, the security of having re-rollable Ld 10 units is awesome.

Units:

20 SSS Corsairs. 7 wide, these were a part of both lists, and knowing that you'll face at least 22+ attacks unless you take out there support ranks is a grueling experience for any opponent. In both games they went through a unit of flagellants like butter (granted T3 no armour troops are perfect for them). Pair of repeaters for the champion was a hit in both games, as he always nicked a charger :)

15 Executioners + warbanner 7-wide. Soft and squishy and quikly runs out of steam.

30 Executioners + re-roll ld banner + CC assassins, 10-wide. Oooh yeah baby! 21 S6 KB attacks + assassin raped a unit of 20 greatswords + BSB. A 5+ ward from a cauldron did great in protecting an otherwise squishy 400 point unit. This is true horror.

15 Black Guard + Banner of Murder.. A great anvil, but soft and squishy, my thoughts are to instead run these as MSU anvils. They are expensive for their damage output, and doesn't really benefit from step-up/horde.

30 spears&shields + warbanner. I ran them as sacrificial lambs and magebunker, but when they were moved down by a unit of empire knights, they were steadfast in the face of the enemy, and were even able to skewer a couple.

20 Witch Elves, 7-wide. I used them in the second battle, and sadly they never made it into the fray, but what goes for the SSS corsairs undoubtedly goes for these girls too. So my vote is with Khaine all the way 8)

Shooting/harassment

2 RBTs. Even though one was flaming and magical from terrain (it had no effect on the game, but probably looked cool), they didn't impress me. The lack of 'large target bonus to hit' makes them worse for monster hunting. and at 50 point per wound, they become horribly expensive.

- I'm not a fan of gunlines or the equivalents, so you won't see me using dedicated crossbowmen and static tactics, but with the new *always wound on a 6*, I see units of 10 as vastly superior to RBTs.

5-6 dark riders + RXBs and musician. Great at harrassment and getting into position for hunting warmachines. Ran 3 units in one game and two in the next, and they performed great. Vanguard is very practical for these guys.

5 Shades w. AHW. With shades losing CC potential, i feel no need to run these guys beyond minimum. The threat of shades alone will mess with your opponents deployment, as he really want them away from his rear. At 85 points these guys are great at threatening missile troops and fast cavalry - and explore forests for that sake.

The Hydra

The 5 headed beast lost a lot of potential in CC from Steadfast, but get it in position for a good flaming and decimate a unit of infantry with a no-partials flame template. Then crash into your opponents wizard and eat them. The hydra is no less scary in 8th, but it will take a bit more thought to use. I'd do my best to keep it out of CC untill it has used its breath weapon (or taken two wounds), as 2d6 hits is nowhere near the killiness of the new no-partials.

In conclusion, I love 8th and my darkies. I see a lot of potential in Khainites and is looking forward to my next battle :)


Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:59 am
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Rending Star
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:10 am
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Location: Germany
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I like that Dreadlord with Crown and Pendant. Quite the annoyance. :D

As for Black Guard... in my only game so far (also against Empire) I used 20 with Banner of Murder and a Master BSB (Halberd, Blood Armour, SDC, Pendant), deployed them two models wider than the opposition (which was 9 for them in that case). They basically destroyed half of my opponent's army (three big units in CC), while taking some casualities themselves, but nowhere near the amount they sent off the field.

Spear Warriors in combat with cavalry... that's when your Cauldron should give them Killing Blow... I'm pretty sure those cavalrymen won't like it. ;)

Bye
Thanee


Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:08 am
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
Posts: 263
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The spears were just about to get KB, but I had already won the game by then (turn 2) ;) - we were playing the Blood and G(l)ory scenario, and my assassin had taken his BSB, my executioners his greatswords, and my hydra was eating his swordsmen, so I'd taken his banners by then.

No doubt the Black Guard is still great (especially, as they got semi-ASF on their own now), but their main advantages lies in their front rank and stubborn Ld 9 IMO, while execs really benefit from supporting attacks. But I'm biased, I like Khainites and bloodletting ;)

And yes. The dreadlord is nasty. In the first game, he held up a unit of greatswords and a WAlter for 7 consecutive rounds of combat, before he finally croaked. But by then my Black Guard took over - that particular melee lasted the entire 12 turns, as it started with him charging my shades and then getting countercharged by the lord. A funny note, the greatswords and WAlter were frenzied from a Temple of Khaine, but none of the darkies were in range for the bonus :lol:


Last edited by The virgin forest on Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:44 am
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:18 am
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Location: UK
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Ive used two hydras in tandem to great effect using the breath weapon in close combat, 2 hydras charge 8 trolls, burn away some wounds, trolls lose regeneration for the phase, hrydras cause loads more wounds with normal attacks and thunder stomp (as the trolls now have no saves or eye of the gods concerns), trolls lose by lots thanks to the use of breath weapon in close combat rather than 'wasting' the one shot on something else..
Those 2d6 hits can be more effective than the template IF you use it to win an expensive combat.

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Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:47 am
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Black Guard

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:49 pm
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Thanks for the point anchanrogar. The breath weapon could do 8 auto-hits shooting the trolls, so the average 7 from a 2d6 rolls + the added benefit of no regeneration is of course preferable in this case :)

I doubt, I'd ever run dual hydras though, lest I'd want to see dual a-bombs, STanks and other nastiness, and my group really want to leave room for variation in our lists :)


Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:57 am
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Corsair

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:18 am
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Location: UK
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:D
I dont think dual hydra is too bad, with the 10pt flaming attacks banner available to everyone, those hydra are going to have to watch out. A few flaming crossbowmen and the breath weapon is non-functional, even if hydra survives. The rulebook lores of magic are pretty good anti-hydra choices too, I think 8th will prove to balance hydras somewhat.

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Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:53 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am
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I don't know what type of environment you are playing in but if I showed up with a pair of Hydras, I'd have a hard time finding a second game down the road. I wouldn't want to play against two Hydras myself (nor two Steam Tanks, two Organ Guns, two Abomination, etc) so I wouldn't do it to other players.


Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:35 am
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There's no denying that two Hydras is less of a threat now than it used to be. They/'re easier to tarpit, their low Initiative makes them vulnerable to step up and magic, and the changes to Regen and abundance of Flaming Attacks make them more vulnerable. They've certainly gained in a number of regards, but I won't cringe anymore when I see two Hydras across from me.

I really enjoy my Black Guard also, especially with a Cauldron for support. The fragility is difficult, but their killing power is so immense that losing some casualties each turn is usually a small trade for the amount of VP they gain. My experience with them is just like Thanee's.

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Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:43 am
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