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8th edition - did DE get stronger or weaker? 
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Meteor wrote:
And why were they in a spot that caused them to suffer like so in the first place? I fought a dwarven gunline myself. All three blocks of my infantry (15BG, 20 Spearmen, 20 Spearmen) did nothing but stayed behind terrain, out of range of the cannons, denying points and claiming two table quarters.

A block of twenty BG is already a massive point sink let alone thirty. People already cry cheese when they see a full ranked up FC unit of BG with Hag Graef (not that the banner is THAT important for them now). And you want to take thirty instead so they can cry harder about cheese. Any bigger than fifteen with FC really does make them a no brainer usage unit. The cap of 20max/unit at least makes people play a little more careful and smart. (no insult intended).

You're not going to be able to use them to full effect as a massive block anyway. There's already the stated issue of one less tar pit unit. Then there's the loss of twenty attacks because you can only strike with one attack as an infantry in subsequent ranks behind the front. If someone's to go thirty BG, I'd much rather see thirty Executioners. Be happy we can take more than one unit of BG now, unlike in our previous army book ed.




Stating the obvious first the BG are max 20.

BG were useful for people who couldn't win using tactics. Now their high price and minimal save will make them less attractive.

The CoB, RoH, PoK and BG were the most over-used bits of our book in 7th, now they are just average. Like the VC and demons, the DE are now a average army. DE are less than they were, but with the reduction of other army lists they are still a very capable army.

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Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:49 am
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Slave on the Altar

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umm i just started warhammer fantasy and i am wondering which army i should choose...i want a melee army which can stand there ground in battle which lasts more than 3 turns.. yet good ranged attributes. i was thinking dark elves but they cant withstand a few good blows. Any suggestions


Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:28 am
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donut0fd34th wrote:
umm i just started warhammer fantasy and i am wondering which army i should choose...i want a melee army which can stand there ground in battle which lasts more than 3 turns.. yet good ranged attributes. i was thinking dark elves but they cant withstand a few good blows. Any suggestions


Probably dwarves, followed by high elves, then dark elves.

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Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:01 am
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The harder it is to play, the better I'd say. Makes people think more. I'm aware their max size is twenty, just saying that's already a massive point sink, if they removed the cap and people were going thirty in a unit, then that's just messed up. So it's good they cap'd them, but it'd still be good without a limit because it'll clearly filter the skilled players from the average ones.

As Rabid said, dwarves are probably your best bet if you want tough units that can shoot too. They've got bucket loads of war machines, crossbowmen, riflemen, and tough melee units like hammerers. They just can't cast any form of magic, but that's not one of your requirements so that's fine. Note they won't have a lot of maneuverability because they're reaaaaal slow, so it's basically deploy deploy deploy, march forward march forward march forward.

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Jacks -Shade
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Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:25 am
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I would go for dwarfs as I suspect that they are really going to come ito their own in this edition. You can be in st the point of the dwarf wedge thats going to disturb the status quo! Hard little gits on small bases FTW!!

Lots of dwarfs with great weapons, warmachines for taste. Perhaps some rangers and an anvil to seriously mess with your opponents plans.

I can hear the dwarf blocks shouting to each other over the battlefield.

I'm in combat!
I'm in combat too!
Great isnt it! Havent done this in years!


Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:55 pm
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Dwarves are a great starter army - very forgiving.

If your up for more of a challenge you could go Skaven. Decent ranged attacks and massive units of expendable slaves allow you to bog down your opponents big bads. As an added bonus Skaven will be in the new base set to be released, which will give you a decent base force and some HE to trade away for other stuff.

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Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:06 pm
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Meteor wrote:
And why were they in a spot that caused them to suffer like so in the first place?


Because it was hidden deployment and I made an error of judgement during deployment. So you played against Dwarfs and won, ooh, OK, I bow down to your greatness... 20 BG still die as easily as 20 Goblins, though, don't they?

Everything else in the game can be taken in big units for survivability, why not Black Guard, if I so choose, and am willing to put the points into it?

Quote:
Any bigger than fifteen with FC really does make them a no brainer usage unit... You're not going to be able to use them to full effect as a massive block anyway.


Hang on, which is it? Large units are a no-brainer, or large units are less effective? Make your mind up!


Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:21 pm
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Quote:
If your up for more of a challenge you could go Skaven.


Skaven are going to be very challenging to face but very easy to use. You can have all the toys in 2250-2500 plus a nasty magic phase, plus some very tough Ld10 infantry blocks.

If a challenge is needed I would go for Brets, Beasts, Wood Elves or Vampire Counts all of whom got severely crimped by the 8th ed rules except beasts who got a little better but were rubbish to start with.


Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:33 pm
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Quote:
I'm in combat!
I'm in combat too!
Great isnt it! Havent done this in years!

haha, they must be having a breeze to have the luxury to converse across a battle whilst engaged! :lol:


Well well well, someone sure is a bitter man. :roll:

If you're adamant about your big blocks of point sinking BG units then go for your life.
And yes, BG are as easily killed as Goblins when wounded, what's your point?

In fact, taking big expensive blocks of BG when they're as easily killed as goblins? whaaaat? that sounds strange! ;)

Quote:
Hang on, which is it? Large units are a no-brainer, or large units are less effective? Make your mind up!

Uh...why am I required to make up my mind? I'm making both claims for BG... A large unit of BG IS a no brainer tactic. A large unit of BG IS less effective than two units of smaller numbers. I'm sorry if it doesn't sound pretty, but that is a fact. I have no issues with you or anyone else taking said units of twenty BG with FC and a nice magic banner, or even a 25pt magic item to boot, every person to their own perferences and play style. I just rather have a smaller unit of BG that'll achieve the same effect a big block will, and invest the extra points I've saved into other more useful elements of my army. When I talk about efficiency, I'm talking about the loss of potential attacks because infantry only fight with one attack in supporting ranks. It's like fielding WE in horde formation of 10x3. They've just lost sixty potential attacks (4ea whilst frenzied). That's just wtf?!

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

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*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:38 pm
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Venkh wrote:
Quote:
If a challenge is needed I would go for Brets, Beasts, Wood Elves or Vampire Counts all of whom got severely crimped by the 8th ed rules except beasts who got a little better but were rubbish to start with.


I disagree that Brets have been crippled. They're the only army with cav that can easily get ranks, and in lance formation they get full attacks on the charge except for interior models behind the second rank, which will most likely be mages anyway. Their armor save still gives them staying power (especially now that greatweapons don't get to go first when charging), they have access to a variety of CR adding character builds, and their trebuchets are now more accurate. Not to mention the new Lore of Life and Beasts have some nasty buffs. I've played a few games against Brets with a Lvl 4 with Life, and the ability for him to make his caster all but immune to miscasts while boosting his spells, one of which heals his units, well that's just nasty. Our lightly armored T3 troops shouldn't underestimate them.

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Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:52 pm
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I think that lances got worse with steadfast and casualties being removed from the back. They are harder to maneovre with the 1" rule in force and they are more likely to get charged with random charge distance in force.

IMO ALL the knight units took a hit except the questing knights which got their s6 back

Peasents, trebs and actually having a magic phase pulls things back a little but overall I think they get crimped (not crippled)


Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:25 pm
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[quote="Venkh
Skaven are going to be very challenging to face but very easy to use. You can have all the toys in 2250-2500 plus a nasty magic phase, plus some very tough Ld10 infantry blocks.

.[/quote]

Remember the post was for a newbie, and while I agree that an experienced skaven player will easily crush most armies - a new player can make a lot of painful mistakes with skaven.

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Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:41 pm
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Thats why i plumped for Dwarfs originally. Ld 9, reliable cannons, lots of choppy axes.

Are Skaven really that hard to master? Deploy protecting your flanks and let all the super cheap, reliable killy stuff do its work. What can go wrong?


Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:15 am
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Things blowing up, charging with the wrong unit(s), fleeing, bottle-necking. It's like telling you to only field armored spearmen with maybe a block of BG and no Hydras. Sure it'll work, it just makes it much harder and you need to think more carefully.

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

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*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:50 am
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Quote:
Things blowing up


Skaven can blow up, they just don't do it nearly as often as many Skaven players claim.


Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:18 am
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Quote:
Skaven can blow up, they just don't do it nearly as often as many Skaven players claim.


Indeed.

Bottlenecking, charging with the wrong units, & fleeing are issues for everyone in 8th. Even my daemons can find things tricky at times.

With the issue of expense gone, the only drawbacks I can see with Skaven are the endless hours painting rats and the complexity of the special rules.


Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:17 pm
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So, how would we as dark elves approach a skaven army? I mean I assume all skaven players will have a grey seer on a bell, with a doomwheel (it seems like it is in every list) along with lots of slaves, etc. When I compare AB's- it seems their magic is almost as potent (I would give us an edge, although with warp stones who knows), they have just as good ldr (or better in most cases with SiN), they have much cheaper units, better assassins, nice scouts (gutter runners) and lots of better warmachines (yes they can break down, but not very often). Note, this is not a whine, merely a question to more experienced players than myself on how to attack the competitive skaven build as my friend is in the process of building an army and I have dark elves. Or do you think Skaven will be the daemons of 8th?


Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:30 pm
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Deal with them at range, Cut down their ranks, snipe the general and BSB with spells and panic the hordes.

At the same time you need a reliable way to deal with doomwheels. If you don't use Bolt Throwers you will need magic to do the job, Metal is pretty good against skaven, their war machines tend to have 3+ armor save so the signature spell will make a short work of them.

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Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:46 pm
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Dalamar, doesnt the Grey Seer atop the bell have a 2+ Ward Save against magic (4+ ward plus MR2)? Also, can you choose to target the seer off the bell like with RXB? Finally, is the Doomwheel 4+ armor save or ward save?


Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:27 pm
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I've never met a grey seer on top of a bell...

It's subpar choice to Plague Priest on Furnace and a Warlord (for Ld10 across the army)

You can't target the seer separately unless with Sniper special rule or spells that can pick characters out of units. There are 2 spells like that in Death Magic, and at least one in Metal Magic

You can target the bell out of the unit it's in though, and then all hits go to the seer on 5+, so massed repeater crossbow fire can really scare the bejeezus out of the squishy rat, 4+ ward save or no.

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Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:32 pm
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Sorry for the late reply Stur, long day at uni non stop today *sad face*. Dalamar pretty much summed it up in short.

Are the bell/furnace classifed as a warmachine btw? If so then you can deal with it using purple sun and pit of shades. Otherwise I'd just ignore the unit altogether. Get a stubborn character in the side and hold it up till you've dealt with the rest of the stuff. I believe the bell makes the unit unbreakable so you can't go kill a bunch of rats and make them run. So panic them is good, Black Horror auto panics them if they suffer a single wound. So long as you keep forcing them to take checks, no matter how good their ld is or how much they reroll, they'll eventually fail and run. Whether they run before it's too late for you or not is a different story, so you'll need to be ready to deal with them if they don't panic and flee.

Despite the fact they're cheaper than our units, cheaper usually means weaker (poorer quality). So even if they outnumber us, so long as we can kill swathes of them each turn, that's not an issue. Unlike against other armies, it's not horrendously bad to be locked in battles of attrition, they'll struggle to hit and wound us just as much. I reckon units like WE and Corsairs will do well against skaven because they have the most attacks per model in our army. Except you'll probably want to take them in smaller units like in 6x2s (or 3s) so you don't waste the damage output potential of the models not in base contact with the enemy thanks to the supporting ranks rule.

For their high ld, usually is because of a character in or nearby, so like Dalamar said, either use nuking magic which are easiest to obtain in lore of death, or run some KB buffed small units into them and KB them. Once they're gone, it'll be much easier to scatter them roaches with panic tests or a good beating in CC with our more elite units.

On the topic of spells, you can further beat down large units of skaven using spell #5 and #6 in our dark magic section. Soul Steal and Black Horror will make your opponent scramble for his pool of DD. Supportive magic like those in shadow aren't as necessary against skaven. They're weak already, there's no need to drop their T further, or make our models hit at S8 using mindrazor, it's just over-killing things. Going for an aggressive stance will be better in this instance. There are exceptions, like Rat Ogres and Aboms, but I personally don't feel it's necessary to waste valuable spell choices for a couple of more intimidating units. I'm not sure how strong Rat Ogres are, for the last time I faced a unit of them, I just sent them chasing DRs for the whole game. But I assume a strong unit of CoK and a Chariot can handle them well enough. If not send in the Hydra too. You should also take up some defensive magic with you too. As you said so yourself, their magic is pretty nasty. If I recall correctly, there's a spell they have that perma drops your T, and if T reaches zero, the entire afflicted unit dies. That means they just have to cast it three times since we're T3 only. Then most of their offensive spells are T checks related. So be selective with what you dispel!

Doomwheels are annoying, sucks we have no cannons :( I believe they're just 4+AS, a 4+ WS is a bit ridiculous. You could slug them with single shot RBTs, or use metal's signature spell that Dalamar suggested. It bypasses armor, deals multiple wounds and you're guaranteed to acquire it. Otherwise bring a unit of executioners to the fight. Ten or Twelve models should provide enough bodies to absorb its impact hits and random zaps and still deliver five or six S6 GW attacks on the thing. With rerolls and wounding on (3s?), it shouldn't be too hard dispatching them if they reach CC.

We've got shades, DRs and Harpies to protect our flanks, they can handle their pesky gutter runners easily. Otherwise our Hydra can freely pivot, you can send it running and burning those scouts since forests don't block LoS anymore. Their Assassins are scary, but I don't think they're used too commonly, I haven't faced any before, people usually invest in more slaves lol. But just keep your characters away from combat if possible. Your mages shouldn't be in CC anyway, your DL and Masters should be well armored to stand a chance of surviving them, and your CoB DH? Well come in, lets see who gets chopped to ribbons more.

Finally, RXB will be very good against Skaven. Multiple S3 AP shots, wounding them commonly on 4's is just awsome. Oh and don't forget the fire banner, bypass those cursed aboms regen. You could take lore of fire or metal to do the same job, but I believe I've listed all five lores we can take (incl our dark magic) and I don't think you'll be running that many mages lol.

That's what I'd do, do correct my way of thinking or improve on them as seen fit. I'm here to learn too, and it's very possible to run a balanced list consisting of all the attributes listed. The only thing missing in the list I'm trying now are RBTs. But I take shadow on default, so all I need to do is get Pit of Shades and signature spell then bye bye abom and doom wheels. I'm being a hypocrite I know, since I said Shadow is a least useful lore against skaven due to the many hexes and buffers in the lore. But since we're required to state what lores we're taking, I take shadow and dark magic on default, and it's just one solution I have option to. If you take death you can easily nuke them nasties anyway. If you take metal you can signature spell them, fire lore? burn them. There's a fire spell in there, i think spell #4, very good crowd control. If the targetted unit moves (even half an inch), each model takes a S4 hit. It'd be useful in keeping the bell/furnace at bay ;)

Or you can try the new stupid idea I've got. Eighty (or more) spears with a Banner of Naggaroth inside. Deploy them in a single wide line across the board and do something spectacular. Keep five or six models in the second rank so your BSB can decline a challenge and hide at the back. See how many units you can tar pit lol.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:55 pm
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This is steering very off topic. Now we're talking about how to fight Skaven?

I, for one, have never found shooting and magic to be a reliable or effective counter to Skaven, only for specific nightmare units that must be shot down before they reach you in combat. In this edition, you'll possibly get two shooting phases before they hit you, and there's always the chance of Stormbanner/Howling Warpgale making our crossbows almost entirely useless.

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Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:46 pm
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I found the lore of shadow to be excellent against skaven...
Only logical way to beat skaven is in close combat, 200-300odd skaven infantrymen with a warlord general will not panic and they will not flinch at 60odd RxB shots a turn. Skaven offensive magic and shooting has a far greater effect on a dark elf army, doomwheels zap hydras, plague spells can cut de warrior blocks in half and melt our elites.
To beat skaven you have to thump their units and break them a round or two of close combat (especially the furnace), this becomes a lot more feasible if a) they cant hit you: miasma 5+ -D3 WS. b) hurt you: enfeebling foe 10+ -D3 strength. c) are easily killed and have no ranks: the withering 13+ -D3 T / cauldron blessing +1A/ mindrazor S8.

On these -D3s, shadow is especially good against skaven because a -1 nearly always has a beneficial effect, whereas chaos warriors will laugh at -1WS, -1S or -1T and beat you anyways.

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Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:28 am
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sorry im a bit late to the discussion, only picked up the rule book 2 days ago

had a small 1000 pt training game against HE, both side slaughtered each other mercisly both only had 1 unit each left by the end

and im sure this has been discussed elswhere, but how the hell do they justify giving HE the equivilent of our "warrior elite" rule. i didn't believe it till he showed me the rule about ASF and I.

i had a few other games against ogres and VC and did ok though.

looks like we're slightly weaker against HE. but on the whole a few tactic changes and we seem to go ok.

and absolutly loving the hydra as well

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Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:30 am
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darthken wrote:
and im sure this has been discussed elswhere, but how the hell do they justify giving HE the equivilent of our "warrior elite" rule. i didn't believe it till he showed me the rule about ASF and I.


It's pretty simple. All attacks are now made in Iniative order. Since High Elves have very high Initiative anyway, this means that Always Strikes First would be a wasted ability against most of their opponents, since they pay extra points for ASF but would be able to strike first anyway due to higher Initiative. Now, against enemies they strike before anyway, they gain a re-roll to help make sure they're paying points for an ability that benefits them no matter who they are fighting against.

I, for one, have no problem with the changes to ASF. I think it quiets down a lot of the complaining about how Dark Elves received gifts the High Elves didn't, and helps to compensate for the fact that our list really is streamlined and heavily optimized in terms of point efficiency. Just compare our Core and Rare choices with those of the High Elves, and it's pretty clear we've enjoyed some enviable advantages. The change to ASF puts tremendous power back in the hands of their infantry, where it belongs.

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Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:11 pm
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