The Manticor, an endangered species

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Crazy_irish
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The Manticor, an endangered species

Post by Crazy_irish »

I know, there are only a few left, cause they get shot down so easily but i want to play one, because of an obvious reason:

A Manticor is plain awesome, cause its a crazy flying lion XD

As i am a Dark Eldar player in 40k, i am use to being shot down, so i can live with it, if he gets shot down, but still, i'd like to talk about ways to keep him alive a little longer, and how to use him(whom to charge, how to equipped,...)

So, first of all lets talk some facts:
- Thou shall always charge into the flank, to minimize the return attacks.
- If thee should face the front, issue a challenge(only the challenged can attack you and your mount)
- Thou shall try to stay out of missile fire
- Thou shall do what you do best, kill something, before it kills you

Some questions, Should i hunt warmachines with it? Cause, they can be really nasty to me.

Now to the equipment:
It would be wise to take some stuff that helps the Manti too,
so the Ring of Darkness would help,thats about all from our AB.
The icon for 5Points from the Rulebook could help, also some Magic resistence would help against spells.
And thats about it. So is it wise to spend points on protection that could help with a bit of luck, or should i equipped my hero with all kinds of weapons, to try and strike
the foe as hard as possible, and pray to Khaine that he protects me?

What also could help, would be to hit the enemy with some curse, e.g. word of pain.

So does anyone know, how i could help my little monster?

sláinte
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Post by Tzelok »

I heavily use a manti-lord and I will share with you what has worked for me so far in 8th.

-Ring of Darkness: This little doozie is great to protect you from shooting. My regular gaming group now assumes the mantilord has the ring, and doesn't even bother shooting at it anymore (at this point I've long changed it so he has the crown of command instead, because my friends have just plain stopped shooting it)

If you are not so concerned about shooting...

Crown of Command - makes it more likely that your manti will not flee if you lose a combat. I find it gives me reassurance and allows me to commit him into combat without worrying about my precious pet.

I generally fly him around a fair bit, and use him as a mobile command with the general leadership bubble increased to 18". I will spend one or two turns positioning him so that he can get a flank charge in conjunction with a large ranked unit. I find he is a great "tipping point" in combat.

It is late and I have been drinking, if I think of anything else I shall come and post again. Cheers.
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Crazy_irish
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Post by Crazy_irish »

Nice to hear that the Manticore still flies!

Will have to test him out with the Ring of Darkness, so how do i equipped the Lord?
sure, the crown of command seems pretty nice, but what to take?
The Whip of agony seems a pretty nice weapon.
and then some sort of protection....

anyone else with some tips?
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Post by Meteor »

Rather than repeating things, go to the character build thread in the tactics section for a chugga blocked list of masters/dreadlord/sorceress builds. You'll just have to modify them by swapping/adding in a ring of darkness and a manticore on for them.
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Jacks -Shade
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Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Crazy_irish
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Post by Crazy_irish »

Well thats true, the list is a really nice collection, i just thought it would be nice to see how others equipped their lord on manti, and what they do with it.
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Meteor
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Post by Meteor »

Well truthfully I never used a manticore and that won't change in 8th ed when they're more vulnerable. I'll be relying much more on Dark Pegasus as a cheap combat mount thanks to the merged profile rule.

If I was to take a manticore, I'd take it on a Dreadlord most likely, purely for the extra 50pt of magic item, you really need that ring of darkness imo.

Dreadlord - 449
SDC, Shield
Fencer's Blade, Glittering Scale, Ring of Darkness
Manticore

All enemies of WS 8 or under will be hitting you on 6's, you have 2+ against shooting and 4+ against CC, but that's if they hit you first. Five S4 WS10 hits from DL and four S5 WS5 KB hits from the Manticore. Lets see them contend with that.
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
Crazy_irish
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Post by Crazy_irish »

I also though of the Glittering Scale, it seems a pretty good idea.

What do you think about the Weapon with +3 A, is it usefull, and doesn't the manti have the stomping D6 attacks?
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Post by Calisson »

A few points which were not risen:

Covers.
A hydra benefits from hard cover (-2) if the majority of it is behind another unit or behind terrain.
True, the beast is so big that it requires at least COK or, better, a hydra to provide that cover.
Add the fact that large targets are no more easier to hit, that should help.

Large unit autosteadfast.
A Manti has 0 rank.
5 models remaining have 1 rank.
No matter how many you kill and stomp, any unit initially larger than 15 is likely to survive.
Worse: the champion may be in the middle of the front rank, the Manti may have charged on the flank, the champ may issue nevertheless a challenge, that you cannot refuse, so the opposing unit lost exactly 1 model, and is steadfast. Next round, you'll have lost your hatred.
So any unit with 5 models plus a champion will survive and remain steadfast.

IMO the Manti is best hunting anything light, warmachines, whatever.
Get after larger units only as support to your other troops.
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

As mentioned in the uber-character thread, the other tricksters shard is a great item to have on manti character - combined with deathpiercer gives the model 8 killing blow attacks with enemies re-rolling ward saves (nice character killer).

I think I'd go something like;

Dreadlord:
Other Tricksters Shard, Deathpiercer, Ring of Darkness, Potion of Foolhardiness, Enchanted Shield
Manticore

I just wish for two thing to make manticore's a little better: option for barding/armoured carapace and also that the manti's KB was heroic KB (makes sense in their descriptive fluff)

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Post by Sulla »

I'm trying out the black dragon egg and sword of might/mundane lance combo this week on my master. He will combo charge with my witches/corsairs. I'm basically using him as a superchariot.

As for the barding wish;
1) that would slow him down.
2) You can get 1+ vs shooting with mundane armour already, or in cc by spending as little as 10pts of magic hat goodness that also gives you a ward vs flaming attacks.

Heroic kb would be nice, but better if they just rewrote the silly fluff about manticores taking on hydras. That was just a very silly piece of writing.
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Post by Maldor »

You won't be able to use the mundane lance under the 8th rules. If you have a magic weapon you must use it the entire game unless it is destroyed or something similar.
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Post by Toddums »

Check this out

Dreadlord on Manti

Ring of darkness
cloak of hag graef
black dragon egg

heavy armor, shield, lance

2+ save in cc and 1+ save from shooting. Shooting at him is at half strength AND half BS.
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

Sulla - barding was just a loose term to mean 'give it a way to get a mild armour save' (even a 5+ or 6+ would be nice!), point taken about the helm though... as for heroic KB - maybe make it like the wyverns 'sting attack' ie. just one - but would be a neat addition to increase the manti's use in games.

Toddums - The cloak only affects the rider though does'nt it? (I dont have the AB to check). He's not a massive issue to protect really - its the manticore itself...

On another note - could the cauldron be a handy addition to protect our big furry friend? Or does the 'model' not gain the ward save - only the rider? Again no army book to check sadly :(

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Post by Holt »

It says all models in the unit gain the ward save so I would say that would include the Manticore.
Want some tips on controlling those frenzied units? http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=71791&highlight=
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Post by Toddums »

Ah you are right beans. I was thinking they shared a profile like monstrous mounts or whatever.


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Post by Meteor »

That's why dark pegasus is so much better now, it shares a combined profile which manticore and black dragon doesnt. But at least black dragon has a 3+ scaly skin and is much tougher so keeping it alive isn't much of an issue.
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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

But costs another 120pts to fulfill pretty much the same role which, with some careful micromanagement - the manticore can do equally. A dark pegasus sadly doesnt give you killing blow and help give a good chance of killing characters - a manticore does...
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Post by Creepsy »

Hey.

How would you people feel about having a Master on Manticore ?

My own thoughts about it was that i chose to drop the Lord choice and Manticore combo to get points for Supreme Sorceress for my 2400pts list. This was because I feel Manticore is quite vulnurable and would be needed to play safe anyway - in which case even having Lord with Ring of Darkness and other juicies riding him, it still wouldnt be resistant enough and the fighting prowess of the said unit wouldnt be that much lower anyways. I then chose to put a Master on Manticore and have it equipped with The Other Tricksters Shard and Armor of Eternal Servitude to hunt down shooters , small units and possibly some heroes in opponents regiments with a backup unit. Is there any sense in my speculations ? X)
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Post by Tethlis »

The Master isn't a bad choice, but since the restriction on Lord choices is much less than it was, taking the Dreadlord for the extra magic item allowance is probably worthwhile. I would still consider using a Master on Manticore as more of a "throw away" unit. Fairly cheap for its hitting power, and it will draw an absurd about of attention away from other units. Even if it dies, it can still draw a lot of missile fire from other valuable troops, and is a respectable option for supplementing combined charges or rampaging through a back line.

Granted, I still don't think it's a great idea, but that's not the point of this discussion ;)
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Meteor
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Post by Meteor »

The Manticore has a respectable profile making it quite ideal for combat, especially with a high I for a monstrous mount. KB is the biggest selling point over a DP, but it's only restricted to infantry warbeasts and cavalry, all three can be easily dealt with by other means. Its got enough attacks coupled with those from the Master/Dreadlord to take a significant chunk out of a unit, then to top it off with a thunderstomp. So it can potentially solo an enemy unit, tieing them up till help arrives or wiping out the entire unit by itself if you're lucky. It'll be invaluable for character assassinations because of its KB, then to follow up with slaying the rest of its bodyguard. The only issue is its lack of AS of any sort, so any stray wounds from lucky blows and shots will make you frown. Which is why ring of darkness is helpful for it so you can mitigate the incoming potential damage, a Master with RoD will not have enough points left for other killing items or armoured protection. Which is why I suggest a Dreadlord. But at that stage you might as well upgrade to a dragon for its breath weapon, higher number of attacks (and stronger), and has a scaly skin save so you don't have to concern yourself with protecting the beast.

Creepsy, your approach with the Manticore is a rather timid one from the sounds of things. If the objective is to hunt down warmachines, shooters, small units and the odd hero in the unit, a mounted dark pegasus will do the job just as wonderfully at a much cheaper and protected cost (from experience). With the points spent on the said Master and Manticore, I could fund two master mounted pegasus and do the job twice as fast and have a second shot at the character i failed to kill with the first pegasus master.

So I'd use it in a few games for fun, for a different sort of feel, but not in a competitive environment like a tournament where a cannonball will cripple it or kill it outright even if the rider had a ward save of a sort.
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
Crazy_irish
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Post by Crazy_irish »

well thanks for all the replies. Something that hit me was, when i read that a killed master grants 100VP to the enemy :-(

Isn't that a big deal if you putt your general on a deathtrap?
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Post by Demetrius »

I was thinking BDE on a character riding the Manticore... thats the characters attacks+manticore attacks+stomp+breath attack. That will surely destroy most units around, and if your on the flank their wont be many attacks left, if any.

The Manticore represents Dark Elves perfectly IMO. Can be devastating but can go down without too much trouble (glass cannon). As long as you are a little careful with the Manticore, ie not putting it in front of a gunline or recklessly charging into a combat that you cant win, youl do fine. Pick your combats with it and it wont disappoint you.
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Post by L1qw1d »

If you're riding toward an enemy, everything is a deathtrap :D just slower than if you running AWAY

I think of these as flying fast cav (which I KNOW our D Pegs are, but... I put these in the same category of "delicate flier used on the offence").
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Post by Meteor »

100VP if that master on manticore is your general.
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued
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Post by Hack n slash »

I'm going to make one anyway from the griffin in isle of blood set with a lion head from the asur(spit spit) chariot and put a master on it for flanking, hunting and assisinating things maybe give him the bound fireball item from the brb and/or ring of hotek or the beast whip should be intresting if nothing else.
The only reason i don't have it is i've not taken it yet!
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