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A possible reason why DE are "strong"? 
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The following post is pure speculation and may or may not be offensive to some players. Reader discretion is advised.







Ok, so this has been bothering me a lot lately. I have played DE ever since 6th edition was released (lizardmen before that), and at the very least through 7th edition and now in 8th DE are considered "strong". I totally agree with that. We are awesome, but one thing strikes me here. When i brows this forum, i can find tactical discussions, army lists and mathhammer in abundance. the DRAICH articles are invaluable for example. When i check forums for other races, i cant find any equivalent. We seem to be blessed with a group of awesome players who share their knowledge and explore the potential of the game on a daily basis. We naturally have several members whom i respect (a lot) less for their opinions, but overall DARK ELF PLAYERS SEEM LESS RETARDED THAN FOR EXAMPLE ORC PLAYERS. Yes i used the R-word (in my wow guild we used the term "flower" instead...) Seriously, the "tactics" discussions at other forums seem to be about complaining that hydras are OP and that there is nothing we can do about it.

It doesnt strike me as odd that many DE players can be competitive when we have all this amazing knowledge so easily accessible, while most other races will have to use maps and a torch to find the same info on their races.

So, what do you guys think? Is druchii.net a factor in how well DE are fairing in tournaments? Are we smarter than the other guys? Or is it just that our rulebook is overpowered?

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:49 pm
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not sure how true that is, I have come here from vampirecounts.net and have read asrai.org quite a bit. I also use thetyranidhive.com They are all pretty similar and have lots of tactical discussions etc.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:39 pm
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Lord Tsunami wrote:
Is druchii.net a factor in how well DE are fairing in tournaments? Are we smarter than the other guys? Or is it just that our rulebook is overpowered?


Yes, Yes, No

You are right about everything Tsunami. I get the exact same feeling. the DRAICH articals are SO valuable. It learnes newer players about experimenting new idea's in the army. Whiel everybody else just whinnes about us, we move ahead and create newer tactics for them to complain about.

Another thing that helps is the amount of active members in this forum. Not just the ones that just read, but also help others in making a army list better and sharing their battle-experiences.

greeting,
Kurt

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:41 pm
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This is a really interesting post Lord Tsunami :)

I was actually thinking about this the other day: with much the same conclusion. I've learned a huge amount of strategies and tactics on here, had the chance to have my army lists scrutinised by veteran players and learn by commenting on other people's armies too, not to mention reading battle reports, studying the DRAICH, sharing knowledge and insights about the rules, and generally feeling well supported by the community.

And we are quite unusual in being quite so active. Even some of the more established websites like bugmans just don't seem to cut the mustard in comparisson (the one dwarf army list I posted up there got a 1 line reply, along the lines of "cool, that's a lot of shooting" and that was it - err, thanks guys, real insightful). I think the asur may be the exception in having an equally good forum (although don't quote me on that, I've never been there...).

The fact that people post lists here for other armies (I did a C&C on a WoC list just earlier today) demonstrates proof of point.

That said, the giant thunderstomping hydras and flying unkillable dragon lords help too :)

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:44 pm
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Well, in my opinion, a lot of it has to do with the persona of the army.

It may sound a bit absurd, but if you are reading the Orc & Gobbo book, everything about it screams: THROW DOWN HORDES OF TROOPS AND GO HIT SOMETHING! It does not scream: "Take a look at min-maxing your shooting profile and compare it to each and every magic item you could use with said profile and compare it to each and every opponent you could bump into".

The Dark Elf book, in comparison, does. Vampire Counts does. Dwarves VERY much does (although dwarf players tend to be so entrenched in their running of dwarves I don't get the same level of "compared information" as I do in DE players).

I know when I paint armies, my mind gets into the, well, mindset, of the army. My orcs are big bold colors that I am able to power through, even on crazy conversions, etc. My Dwarves are meticulous constructions that for some reason I am able to paint squad by squad instead of individually. My Dark Elves are finicky bits of detailing that leave me never quite satisfied with what I've accomplished and somehow believing the other miniatures are somehow at fault for all this.

So, yes, I think when playing orcs, orc players tend to be, well, orcs! and when playing dwarves, they tend to be, well, dwarves! I shudder what Ogre players must be like...

~B~


Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:06 pm
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Definitely part of it is the DRAICH. I was considered one of the best players at my local GW, and it only got better (or worse if you were across the table from me) once I got ahold of tactics I hadn't heard of before. As an example, MSU was unheard of in my shop, so suddenly taking two units of CoK instead of 1 unit of 10 was a massive change that my opponents were unprepared for.

The update to 8th edition was also made easier due to the fact that I was not trying to reinvent the wheel all by myself. Catching the various changes was a lot easier when there is dozens of us looking for every change that harms/helps/alters the styles we used to play.

Other than that, I think most Dark Elves complain less about other races and instead look at them as challenges to be overcome. Now, to be fair we do complain about certain builds as being near unbeatable for our army (input my personal pet peeve: 7th edition Daemon Leadership Bomb list here :evil: ). However, very few armies seem to be labeled as outright "cheese". Compare that to the High Elves on Warseer. :roll:

In addition, most Dark Elves that I and my gaming buddies have met (myself included) seem to play a rather cutthroat, almost ruthless, game. I don't know if those with that desire to kill just naturally drift to the Druchii, or if playing Druchii develops the instinct. *shrug*

Either way, when you add the knowledge base of the DRAICH with that "take no prisoner" mentality, you get a force that tends to either win big or leaves both sides as shattered remnants of their once glorious forces.

I would never say that we are "smarter" than other players, but we may be a little less complacent than the rest. I know I was here for the tail end of 6th edition and all of 7th, so I don't take the new army book for granted. I've been there when we were the neglected army, and I'll be here when we get neglected again (as much as I hope we won't be). We as a community seem to take the rules less for granted, so we can often use them to our advantage without abusing them.

Okay, that may have gone a little longer than I intended. Hope it makes as much sense written as when it went through my head.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:15 pm
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As the acctuall forementioned flower of an orc I stand shamed in the corner. And btw Tsunami only winns because he has sold his soul to the god of dices ^^ I clearly isn't because I suck at warhammer Kishishishishishishishi!

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:18 pm
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Did you not notice a change in your win ratio when the new book came out then? Did you think that this was down to some sort of divine inspiration?

D.net helped me through 6th ed and definitely contributed to my approx 50/50 win loss ratio. However as soon as the new book came out I was beating the hell out of all comers, so much so that I deliberately started comping myself to avoid embarrassment.

The on line resources helps get newer players up to speed and anyone who played 6th ed dark elves really had to get to know the game.

The army book has been the biggest factor though, nothing else explains the sidden jump in fortunes.


Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:24 pm
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The difference in my game ratio did alter when the 7th edition army book came out, and yes it was heavily in my favor. However, since my ratio with the 6th edition book had become virtually wins and draws the real change was how easy it was to win for a time. To be honest about 5 out of 6 games were massacres.

However, that "glorious" period only lasted for a while during what we called "New Army Syndrome". After a while people found enough counters to hold their own as long as I didn't go the extreme with massive magic (reference to lv4, and 2-3 level 2s) or more than 2 monsters. I still won most of the time, but the games were more reasonable.

About 6 months after the army book released things began to even out. My army was still a terror on the field but it was considered once again as much my ever-changing playing style as the army book itself.

I'm one of many who fully admit that in 7th our Hydra was virtually, but not necessarily, broken. Even dragons with Hatred was a little much. Likewise, I was always ready to go over the battle with my opponent and show them exactly how they could have torn me apart, usually it was a matter of deployment that caused them issues. (For instance, why did people always put their 10 strong knight units, with combat Lord, directly behind a forest when I had minimal shooting and only average magic? :roll: ) If nothing else, I'd show them exactly what they did that let me destroy their army so that they would never do it again.

So did our new book contribute to making me more competitive? YES.
Is the book the only reason that I'm known as a strong opponent? NO.
Would I continue to find ways to rip apart my opponents with the 6th edition book? You better believe it!

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:56 pm
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Anyone who started playing Dark Elves before the new book HAD to be a better player just to avoid being instantly destroyed. Our old book was so underpowered, you had to be tactically sound simply to get any mileage out of it. When you give that type of community a new book with powerhouse choices, it's a recipe for destruction.

I like Druchii.net, but I don't consider it all that different from a lot of forums. There are plenty of smart players and intelligent discussion out there, every forum has them, but I think that Dark Elves in general appeal to a strategic mind since even the most powerful Dark Elf list can be unforgiving of mistakes.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:24 pm
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This is an interesting topic because I was thinking about it yesterday. I only found this site soon after 8th edition came out and to be honest it was the first Warhammer forum that I had ever seen (remember I'm from SA). At first everything was a bit difficult to get the hang of but after a couple of days I had gotten pretty used to the site. The only other forum i'd ever participated in was a rugby forum so you can imagine the sort of vulgar language used there, where someone makes a name for themselves by being able to throw out the best disses not actual discussions. The first thing that I was surprised about was how helpful the people on this site were, and understanding (seems a sort of antithesis on a DE site). Anyway I started venturing off to the links on the home page and read what I could on the other sites. It soon hit me that they generally weren't as busy as Druchii.net, I would visit the site one day and a week later not much had changed (remember I haven't checked all of them and if there are some great forums out there a link would be much appreciated). On the other hand Druchii.net seems to have close to 500 posts a day (Just an estimate I may be exaggerating) and multiple new topics for discussion. Ever since I've discovered this site I've logged on almost everyday and to tell you the truth I'm sort of astonished at how tolerant and friendly everyone on this site has been, I feel like I have to take part in some sort of discussion everyday here (Thats today finished). I have very little experience with the Druchii at the moment and before I found the site I had a rough army list in my mind of what I hoped to put together... however the advice on this site has really helped and thanks to a lot of you my list is way more efficient now (That includes you Tethlis ;) thanks for the shade tips, they have been the most helpful so far Oh! and Callison is quite a character). Anyway thats pretty much what I have to say... so thanks for the great forum it's obviously well run. Cheers :lol:


Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:07 pm
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well im off with some armies for example, looking through many forums

druchii.net is for sure up at the top but there are also many others with similar info. maybe its just the admins good work here to prepare the druchii tactics that good

and no we arnt smarter or better players its just the army at least thats the case since the last army book, before there was some kind of druchii groups figuring out tactics for being competitive

since then we became "mainstream" because of the easier to play and moreflexible army book than the others : /

EDIT: +1 to Venkhs statement


Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:19 pm
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Oh and I really ought to thank Callison for coordinating the 'DRAICH'.

An absolutely unrivalled, awesome, valuable resource!


Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:31 pm
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I freely admit that I am one of the worst tabletop generals ever. I have played Dark Elves since 3rd edition, and I can count the number of games I have won since that time on the fingers of one hand. Until the 7th ed book came out, when suddenly I started winning more than half the time.

Read into that what you will.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:30 pm
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PLAYA23 wrote:
(That includes you Tethlis ;)


Happy to help. I hope that units works out well for you.

Well-run forums are one of the best resources available to our hobby. I trust them far more than the opinions I get locally.

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Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:54 pm
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I started the DE when the armybook was released in the 7th. I played a few games and got my butt handed to me every time. (I was an O&G player before then)

Then I found D.net.

My win ration has been over 70% since then and I owe it all to DRAICH. The people I play agianst were surprised at my turning fortunes on the table top and when I finaly told them where I was getting advice, some of them started going to D.Net for some "espionnage".

I fully admit that I'm not the best general around. If I've been winning, it's because the DRAICH has been the best darn instruction manual out there. I'm not very creative but I can follow instructions.

The same can be said for my battles under the 8th so far.

This site, and it's many contributors, have made me a better player.


Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:27 am
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Tethlis wrote:
Anyone who started playing Dark Elves before the new book HAD to be a better player just to avoid being instantly destroyed. Our old book was so underpowered, you had to be tactically sound simply to get any mileage out of it. When you give that type of community a new book with powerhouse choices, it's a recipe for destruction.

I like Druchii.net, but I don't consider it all that different from a lot of forums. There are plenty of smart players and intelligent discussion out there, every forum has them, but I think that Dark Elves in general appeal to a strategic mind since even the most powerful Dark Elf list can be unforgiving of mistakes.


I will second Tethlis on this one. Any DE player who started with on 6th Edition knew for a fact that back then all the competitive army lists during that time practically were pretty much the same. 10-20 Dark Riders, 4 Bolt throwers, 2 Manticores and or Dragonlord, couple of Harpies and Crossbowmen. Monster lists were more to theme and not as they are in the present incarnation. Against other armies, DE was imo one of the hardest if not the hardest armies to play. We relied heavily on MSU, mirrrored WE Sethlaya gameplay and had to pick every single fight and that was just so we would get draws. Our book was so outdated and outclassed imo that we had to improve our game and invented new tactics and approaches to give us the edge. It was in Druchii.net where I first encountered the 7 wide frontage which during that time was unheard of as the norms was 5 wide. Everyone in my gaming group was like "what the hell was he thinking sacrificing a guaranteed +1 or 2 SCR". It was in DE where my own tactics was strengthened with MSU and flee baiting as well as emphasis on refused flank strategies. The things I have learned by simply reading these forums was unheard of such that I could apply certain tactics to other armies. To sum up my wall of text, being in the pits before made better DE generals. You give a good general a strong army book and It's a massacre.

Mod Edit: double post removed. Thanks for Your attention.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:46 am
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DRAICH is awesome, it has made me a better player; no doubt about that. But there are equivalents for every other army on every other forum. Yes, DRAICH is a brilliant resource. No, it's not the reason DEs are a tier 1 army at the moment.


Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:11 pm
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Allkahon Summerdrake wrote:
As the acctuall forementioned flower of an orc I stand shamed in the corner. And btw Tsunami only winns because he has sold his soul to the god of dices ^^ I clearly isn't because I suck at warhammer Kishishishishishishishi!
Welcome Allkahon Summerdrake in Druchii.net anyway :).
Da grin warior kan rid da tactics 'ere in order to bekom a better warior... if 'e can read at ole. :mrgreen:


Similar feelings for me.
However, I must tell that the other forum I browse, Warhammer-Empire, contains a similar wealth of tactical articles (TVI, to mention one, but also a great magic tactica, a warmachine tactica, a knight's tactica...).


The spirit here comes from the hard old times indeed.
DE were sooooo hard back during the times of the previous army book.
When I discovered D.net, 2 1/2 years ago, I found an amazing community of helpful dedicated gamers. Thanks to them, I discovered a wealth of information which allowed me to get from a no-win/all loss ration to a more acceptable one.
I discovered for example the existence of Cult of Slaanesh, some magic objects of which were officially available to all DE.
MSU was another discovery. Bait 'n flee was another.
Well, examples are countless.

I was eager to sort of pay back what I owed to D.net, but my experience was so much lacking that it had no chance to ever happen. However...
When the present army book was released, I was sorry that the whole wealth of knowledge was going to become obsolete. However, this was my chance to become useful for the community: everyone was a beginner again.
I had the idea to collect all goods ideas from various posts, and keep them readily available for newcomers. That was the start of the D.R.A.I.C.H., along with strong encouragement for authors to create high quality threads.

The D.R.A.I.C.H. is not much by itself.
It is the articles which are linked from the D.R.A.I.C.H. which represent the real wealth.
It is the dedication of many experienced players, who kept the spirit of a helpful community despite that the new army book was no more requiring that much help.
Actually, I recall some nice posters who ceased to participate to D.net when the new army book has been issued, because they were disgusted to see that playing DE was no more a challenge. I noticed with great pleasure that some of them are back, with the release of the new rulebook. Hope that they will last.

I like the spirit here, the spirit that a tactical problem is a challenge to overcome rather than a pain to rant and whine about.


Venkh, and many other D.netters wrote:
Oh and I really ought to thank Callison for coordinating the 'DRAICH'.
An absolutely unrivalled, awesome, valuable resource!
Thanks.
I'm glad to see that all the effort paid off.

If a few of you feel committed to "pay back" what you owe, then I can retire knowing that I don't leave a mess!
Actually this is one duty that the old timers have: to welcome young blood and encourage them to take up the task, so that our beloved website keeps being as we appreciated in the first time.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:29 pm
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CappenVerra sums up my experience almost exactly. I was(am?) once an O&G player, switched to Dark Elves when they made the model changes. Suffered horrendously on the tabletop with both armies through 6th and have been on vacation from both the hobby and game since then.
I’ve played one game with O&G since 8th was released and even though I lost had an amazing time. Since then I have been reading through the amazing DRAICH article collection, thank-You Callision and all of the writers of the articles contained within, and am currently working hard to get my Druchii table worthy.
In context, I can say that this site is jam packed with helpful articles & tactic discussions that dwarf anything I have run across for my O&G. I don’t think this fact makes us smarter exactly, I think it’s the amount of organization as well as the moderators this site has that attracts users(read: Callision, Tethlis, and many, many others with well thought out and articulated opinions) who feel their contributions will be respected for the work that has gone into them.

Thanks to this site I once again have the spark to play.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:38 pm
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For what it's worth, I'm a warhammer lurker in general and I've been around to lots and lots of WFB race specific forums. I'd say that Druchii.net is the best website overall (with some close competition like the Ogre Stronghold, which is also of pretty high quality), and I think this is due to many factors, including the hard work of the mods in keeping things to a higher standard than is allowed on, say, a site like the Chamber of the Everchosen (though I frequent that site too!). The D.R.A.I.C.H. is probably the best tactica resource around too.

Anyway, I don't doubt that it's been a help to many of the players who use it, but I highly doubt that Druchii.net has all that much to do with the success of the 7th/8th edition Dark Elf army on a global scale; it's tough to deny that the army book is just a powerful book.


Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:56 pm
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Another 1st time poster here! And he is the most recent registered as well:

We have 15474 registered users
The newest registered user is MMMMK


Hi, MMMMK, welcome to D.net :)
and especially since you registered on purpose to tell your good feelings about D.net. :D

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:03 pm
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Right on Calisson! and welcome to D.net MMMMK - thanks for your contribution! :D

For me, I begun using druchii and druchii.net (in its previous old guise before the revamped version we all know and love now courtesy of Kitrik, Langmann, Kala, et. al) since they first arrived with the new models in 6th edition. Previous to that I was an unbeaten brettonian player that my friends couldn't figure how to win against (I didnt use cheesy small/elite lists - that was my trick in case you wanted to know ;)).

Druchii were a very very hard army to master back then and the resulting cameraderie of players worldwide that suffered similarly were brought together to pit our minds and experience to overcome these odds. Druchii.net has ALWAYS had a brilliant supporting group of regulars, part timers, new players and occasional/rare posters. This variety allows a large amount of perspective on many matters.

Is this a good/large contributor to our 'success' tournament wise and beyond?

I'd argue certainly - particularly when Calisson arrived on the scene with his large briefcase of history changing 'DRAICH' articles at the dawn of our 7th edition army book (you may recall it was Calisson who shed genuine light on the rumours flying around about our book too) however as numerous others have written - its not just articles and community support that have contributed to our success: the book itself is a solid tome of nasty surprises and killer combos.

However - we're not invicible - despite what other players on some other communities may say/think. Its still very very easy to cock up playing a druchii army list. BUT, thanks to so many of our players having to endure the 6th edition 'strife' - we have emerged into the light as being even stronger as a player community than perhaps we should normally have.

Praise to Khaine, Kitrik, Langmann and Dark Alliance for our existence today! May we dominate the high seas of internet webspace and gaming boards across the globe for decades to come! :twisted:

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Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:37 am
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I originally found this place in like 2003, I thought it was some bizarre DnD roleplaying place, and never found the forums on the site until about a year later.

This place is a goldmine of very valuable information that is beneficial to both veterans, and noobs alike. This site, and TWF is where I tend to trust most of the info I find, also the respective army's webpages like TDL etc..

PS: Cal's draich is the bomb. I would have never felt the way I do, regarding some units and their uses if I didn't force myself to read the wall of text. <3

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Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:03 am
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The Draich is a fine resource, but if you go over the army list section, you'll notice that it is indeed the book that makes darkies a good army. In 7th you saw countless Hag Graef Black Guards and dual hydras, and its not like these choices demanded mind-boggling tactics to use. Also the sheer number of DE players, who has the cheekiness to demand their opponent to just step up to the Challenge, when they build their cheese lists is only rivalled by the chaos sites.

D.r.a.i.ch. Is good and useful, but IRL it just limits the variation in darkie armies.


Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:23 am
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