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Which units would want champions and why...? 
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Noble
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I am point-fiddling with my list for an encounter against dwarves.

I have never really understood the use of champions. Sure they add an attack, but it is seldenly worth the points with most dark elf models getting several attacks anyway (with cauldron), and the difference between 2 and 3 or even 3 and 4 attacks is not very big.
Some people use them to "protect" their characters from challenges. First of all, I dont really see how that can work in 8th with all the supporting attacks. If I was stupid enough to get a sorceress into close combat, I would proberbly issue a challenge with her, to get her away from the tons of attacks. No need for a champion there either. In addition I dont really have any characters to protect in my current list (only sorceress on peg)
In the case of shooting units, champions are just silly with their extra +1 BS making every shooting phase take even longer...

If I took the champions out of my list I would have the SAME body count and: 54 points more! (2 CoK champs, 2 spearmen champs and a corsair champ) That is well under way to an extra unit...


Now that we are at it... would you give the CoKs standards? My list combines 2x30 spearmen with 2x6 CoKs, and the CoKs are really just there to provide the kills with a cauldron blessing. Usually their attacks is more than enough to win combat when they charge, without the help of a banner, and the problem is always the steadfast rule. Prolonged combat without the assistance of spearmen is never going to work, and since the spears have a banner already, what is the use of CoKs having one...?

2 CoK standards: 32 points

MUSICIANS on the other hand are VITAL to every unit in 8th. Thank God they are so cheap :-)


Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:12 am
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Dark Illusionist
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You're right, most units don't really need a champion, what with so many more models attacking anyway champions are a bit redundant. In case of high strength attacks (like executioners) a champion is still well worth it because with hatred and cauldron buff and whatnot, one attack can often mean one more wound, or half a wound which is a lot. But for spearmen the champion costs more than another model, yet his extra attack no longer contributes as much because there are more attacks anyway, so comparatively the champion got worse yet keeps the same price. The same goes for standards. I'm thinking most people might be taking them out of habit. Champions are great when they can take a magic item (BG and CoK) and so are standard bearers. You do need standard bearers for the scenario where you have to break your opponent's force, though, so for a tournament all major units still should get standards. They are also much less high risk now. It is harder to capture them and worth less.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:08 am
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Generalissimo
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Interesting question.

I think Mr Anderson has it right. Two main uses for a champion imo are:

- Magic item carriers
- Good delivery systems for multiple high strength attacks

On the challenge issue, its a difficult one. I agree that facing 1 hero can sometimes be a better choice for your sorceress (particularly if she has a ward save) than multiple rank and file attacks.

However, the champion can be very good for derailing that frenzied exalted hero with flail and juggernaught. Yeah, sure, you'll lose lots of ACR from the overkill, but it will help your unit to survive longer (and retain stalwart for longer) as he won't be scything his way through rank and file troops.

The champion can also be very good as a counterfoil for your opponent doing the same to you. A canny adversary will often challenge with his/her champion to force your lord of killyness to either accept and waste his attacks on the champion or sit the combat out. By accepting with your own champion, your lord can focus his attacks on those measly rank and file instead.

Some champs can be special characters too (e.g. kouran and tullaris). They confer advantages (although, admittedly, they're both kind of feeble).

Finally, there is something of a fluff to champions. I like my big block of warriors or corsairs going into battle with a full command because, well it feels right. Yes, that extra 10 points could probably be better spent buying an extra corsair rather than a unit champ, but the advantage is relatively small and I do like having a corsair champ to lead my unit. It just feels more fluffy :)


Standards are a more difficult question. Yes, in many ways it can be hard to justify spending many points on a standard bearer, who adds just 1SCR. But again, there are several key uses:

- Magic banner carriers.

Also, the cost of a rank of models is usually more than the cost of the standard. To get +1SCR from a rank unit of Cold One Knights for a rank you would have to pay 135 points. The standard confers the same +1SCR for just 16 points.

Again, fluffiness.

With CoKs it tends to depend on the size of the unit if I give them a banner or not. In 7th ed I ran a unit of 5 naked knights as my norm. Now I tend to run bigger units if I use them (12 is typical), so a standard is actually quite tempting. When you're spending 350 odd points on a power unit already, another 16 doesn't seem like a huge jump.

And yes, in theory an additional cold one knight SHOULD generate more than 1ACR each round, negating or bettering the 1SCR bonus from a standard. But a standard adds reliable CR, even if the dice all come up as ones, whereas the extra half cold one knight you could buy for the points cost delivers unreliable ACR. It's nice sometimes to have a bit of reliability in that big costly unit.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:36 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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as mentioned above, a champion can buy you an extra round of combat by challenging a dragonlord. the champion gets raped by the dragon, and you lose the combat, but retain steadfast, and you only lost a 13 point model. that sacrafice means the unit can survive one round extra before being wiped out. thats one round extra for help to arrive. clearly worth it for cheap warriors.

an executioner or CoK champion for example is meant to enhance the combat ability of a unit. more attacks in the same unit frontage. thus it enhances the units striking capability. well worth it for expensive "punchy" units.

champions for expensive fragile ranged units (DRs and shades) seem a lot less attractive to me tough. they dont really fulfill any of the above roles.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:50 am
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Shade

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I agree that the dragon issue is a big factor. Even if you don't plan on taking a dragon, you opponent might!


Lets say your lord inflicts 3 wounds on the champ. Then your dragon gets no attacks, breath weapon, or thunder stomp. You're mighty dragon lord has only killed one champ, and you haven't even got the chance to max out the overkill :shock:


Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:04 pm
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Lord of the Venom Sword
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It seems the main issues for taking the champ have already been covered. However, you have all forgotten the bonus 50 VPs for killing enemy characters in a challenge. While this may not seem like much, it can actually be a big deal in the new game, with the possibility of people fielding multiple cheap characters (goblins, skaven come to mind immediately). This makes taking champions that have the ability to reliably kill charaters pretty much mandatory (you should now never see an ogre/chaos warrior unit without a champ). Has less of a impact on some DE units (spearmen champs are unlikely to kill anything but a wizard and an exe champ is likely to be cut down before he can strike) but it is well worth it for others, despite the champs often being expensive (COK, BG, WEs, DRs, even corsairs).

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:18 pm
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Beastmaster
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I have to admit, that is an area I always look at in army construction. I have learned that I like my champion in my RXBs. For some reason, his better shooting seems to pick off that extra model, so its worth it.

Smaller units as well. A Cold One Knight unit is typically what, 5, 6 figures? An extra attack there feels a lot better than in your horde of 30 spears.

Well, just my thoughts!
~B~


Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:30 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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I mainly use my champion in a defensive role to protect my squishy casters.

I think another way they are used offensively is to counter the enemies defenses, particularly with us. We have the ability to make characters with a LOT of attacks which make mincemeat (and lots of CR) vs rank and file. How annoying is it when the enemy challenges you and your expensive character is forced to kill only one model. Sure he can get overkill, but with the steadfast rule, the ability to kill a rank is more important than overkill in my opinion. If the enemy throws a challenge, then just accept with your own champion, and let the character kill what he likes.

On a side note I have found champions very useful as an undead player as I can bring them back, allowing tarpits to work brilliantly.


Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:27 pm
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Dark Rider
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not to be forgotten is the new rule were a champion can gain VP from killing a character, my executioner champion has already proved valuable in that regard.

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Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:38 pm
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Ant wrote:
It seems the main issues for taking the champ have already been covered. However, you have all forgotten the bonus 50 VPs for killing enemy characters in a challenge. While this may not seem like much, it can actually be a big deal in the new game, with the possibility of people fielding multiple cheap characters (goblins, skaven come to mind immediately). This makes taking champions that have the ability to reliably kill charaters pretty much mandatory (you should now never see an ogre/chaos warrior unit without a champ). Has less of a impact on some DE units (spearmen champs are unlikely to kill anything but a wizard and an exe champ is likely to be cut down before he can strike) but it is well worth it for others, despite the champs often being expensive (COK, BG, WEs, DRs, even corsairs).


A CoK champ with the Scourge is a useful addition, as are hags with RoK, both are Int 6 so will probably go first versus most opponents.

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Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:17 am
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Personally these days I have only been taking Champs on my Knights and Warriors.
Warriors because they are fairly cheap and look good and the Knights because again they look good and I assembled my Knights with full command.
Probably I don't even need either of them but units don't look anywhere near as heroic with no champ.

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Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:49 am
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Dragon Lord
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All our champions have something champions of other armies don't.

High I (on par with I of heroes in other armies!) and KB from Cauldron.

If I had a sorceress with 1 attack, kill a chaos lord before thanks to KB, then a champion can do just that as well.

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Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:21 am
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Trainee Warrior
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Just to chime in - same reasons:

-Because it feels right
-Tying up a enemy character to retain Steadfast
-Arming CoK Champ with magic weapon
-Protect squishy Sorceresses

- Blackbone


Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:41 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Some of our champs have enough attacks and high enough initiative to be a real threat to enemy characters. A hag with AHW, frenzy and rune has 5 attacks if i remember right, loads of chances for killing blow with a cauldron, similarly with the black guard tower master, he only has three attacks but can weild a magic weapon and always re-rolls to hit. Thats more offensive than some enemy heroes.


Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:49 pm
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Champions in almost all units pays of. In big units, as said, protection from big monsters, dragons/deamon lord etc. In small unit they protect their comrads in that the enemy needs to allocate atacks against champion to kill him ( or her ). And ofc the good old challenge issue still stands as good reason if yo got a master or sorcerer in you unit. The extra atack is more dicey as point vs punch goes. And if your still in doubt just remember that GW is trying to sell us more and thus the BRB clearly reflects that.

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Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:37 am
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
the enemy needs to allocate atacks against champion to kill him ( or her )


Not sure this is accurate: champions receive wounds from attacks made against the unit, as long as they're the last model left (or am I mis-remembering this?). So yes, if you do 10 wounds against a unit of 15 spearmen, then the champion will live on, but if you do 15 wounds against a unit of 15 spearmen then the champ will die because he takes the final wound...

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Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:30 pm
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Dark Illusionist
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Red, I think the point was that in normal combat (i.e. when there are 20 or so RnF models still alive) that a champion needs to be targeted separately. That the champion dies when the unit is almost gone sort of wasn't the issue.

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Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:03 pm
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