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Charge Order and Flee Reaction 
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Rending Star
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Since you now declare every charge seperately, one by one, with charge reaction executed before the next charge is declared, and only after all charges are declared and all charge reactions are executed, your chargers are moved (in any order), you can, if one of your stronger combat units charges and the opponent decides to flee, afterwards make a charge with a small, fast unit (like Harpies or Dark Riders), auto-killing the fleeding unit, if you can reach it.

That could be pretty nasty, if your opponent does not see it coming...

And even if he sees it coming, you can prevent a unit from taking that flee reaction that way.

Keeping your fast units "in reserve" during the charge declarations, declaring their charges last, is probably a good idea in general. Sometimes such a target of opportunity just might present itself on a silver platter.

Bye
Thanee


Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:26 pm
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Highborn
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The tactic is valid and thus was used even before 8th edition in conjunction with harpies at the back of the unit for instant kills. It was only in this edition where the charge order was given attention. The thing is after you declare the charge with your Dark Riders and whatnots he can opt to flee vs your Dark Riders. Another thing is you can only pull this by your second turn and by then any army with shooting units can easily see that you 85-110-117 DR unit is easy VP and target it before it actually does anything. I'm not saying that the tactic is unusable but more like unreliable and expensive to do that. I'd rather charge with the Dark Riders first from the flank and thus

A: If he holds then I will declare another charge with my other unit as he will likely think that 5 fast cav will do nothing. The moment he sees that I declared my charge with my other unit he will now react again and weigh if he can actually hold the second incoming unit. Remember that supporting attacks cannot be made to the flanks or rear and thus should he commit to facing my larger unit first I will receive less attacks on my DR. If he allocates his attack to my DR, my ranked up int in front will most likely deal as many kills and have more ranks.

B: If the opts to flee from the get go I will not have wasted my other unit and simply march forward, wheel a little to my left or right to "expose" any possible counter charging units flank then proceed to pursuit with my DR who would then be be behind his charge arc. This though is unlikely as 5 DR cant really do anything much anymore as compared to prior editions. The removal of unit strength and 2 ranks to break ranks really tanked the DR imo.

The only real purpose of this rule for me tactics wise is to redirect charges. For example, first I would declare a charge on his unit with similar or equal strength unit of mine on unit A then try to charge a unit B that I know I can surely break on that turn and present my enemy with the options of holding with that frail unit and hope to survive or fleeing. I can then either overrun or redirect accordingly. I would have divided his strength for one turn and joined my own on the next.

Bottom line, your opponent can always react to each and every single charge you make. If you charge with your fast unit after it has opted to flee from another chances are it will be very far away and even then I would hold against that DR or Harpies

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:37 am
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Dragon Lord
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If the enemy already fled, he has to flee again if charged by a fast unit, possibly running off the table with that move.

If you charge with fast but small unit first, he will most likely hold, and even if he flees from a second unit, he will only make one flee move (and maybe get caught by your fast cavalry) instead of two (and possibly running off the table)

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:50 am
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Highborn
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Yup as Dalamar said, that is how I would theoretically use DR with the new rules. The natural M9 is indeed nice but it means you have to make the enemy feel the need to flee. Very Sun Tzu imo.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:43 am
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Dragon Lord
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And if the flee, you can redirect a charge to a new target if you pass a Ld test... say, another unit that already fled from a charge to make them flee again ;)

Harpies are awesome for that as well as long as they stay within general's Ld range.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:51 am
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Rending Star
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Dalamar wrote:
If the enemy already fled, he has to flee again if charged by a fast unit, possibly running off the table with that move.


Hmm... I was thinking that a unit only gets one charge reaction (other than Hold), but cannot find it now. Probably mixing that up with the pursuit into fleeing units. But fleeing again is also good. Depending on the battlefield, it could very easily happen, IMHO, that a first flee reaction gets a unit much closer to a unit of Harpies lingering around somewhere else, and they do have quite some charge range still, so even fleeing again might not be enough. :)


Does that mean, BTW, that a missile unit gets multiple Stand & Shoot reactions now, if they are charged by multiple units? Or is Stand & Shoot still only possible once? Can't find that one either. ;)


And speaking of DR, they can be used like this, if you have them... but I would rather use Harpies. :)

The point here is, that it can be far less obvious, that a flee reaction opens the unit up for a Harpy charge. Before, it was rather obvious, when the Harpies were right behind the unit.


And just for the record, I'm not saying you should try to deliberately set this up for a 2nd turn charge or somesuch, but rather to keep it in mind, if a situation like this presents itself, which can easily happen in the mid- or late-game.

Bye
Thanee


Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:09 am
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Shade
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Thanee. A unit can only have one "stand and shoot" reaction (cant find the rule atm either). And if he flees once, he have to flee as a charge reaction in every upcoming charge after that first flee (p. 17). Actually, theoreticly you can make a enemy unit flee allmost the entire table, thats 48" :)

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:33 am
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S&S: p.17.

The unit "U" may be charged by a zillion units. The sequence is as follows:

A charges U.
- If U is not fleeing, then it may hold.
- If U is not fleeing and did not S&S yet, it may S&S and the effects are resolved immediately, at unmodified range (or, if that range proves to be at more than the maximum, it is solved at the max range).
- If U is already fleeing, or if it chooses to flee (even after previously taken hold or S&S reaction), it takes immediately a flee move. Further reaction will be auto-flee. "A" can try to select another target (but can never declare more than 2 charges in the same turn).

Then B can declare to charge U. U reacts.
Then C can declare to charge U. U reacts.
...
Then Z can declare to charge U. U reacts.

When all charges have been declared,
the player rolls charge dice for A, B, C... Z.

If any one of the unit reaches U,
- either U was fleeing and U is now destroyed
- or U was holding and is now in melee.


The harpy push-push game.
Tactical use (I'm not sure how practical it can be).
You're facing two medium units U and V.
You have one large threatening über-unit, A, and two harpy units, B and C.

A charges U. U flees.
A redirects its charge to V. V flees.
B charges U. U flees.
B redirects its charge to V. V flees.
C charges V (supposing that its max charge distance is still more than the present distance). V flees.
C redirects its charge to U (supposing that its max charge distance is still more than the present distance). U flees.
No more charges.
A and B roll dice towards V.
C rolls dice towards U.

As a result,
U and V have been pushed back in 3 flee moves each.
Chances are that they are now very, very far away from A, B and C.
If the flee moves were poor, or, better, if the push-push moves were done towards the next units, then U and V may well be within range and be destroyed.

Harpies playing Ping-pong
A => ............ U ............ <= B
C =>............ V

Harpies playing triple-jump
.... B =>
A => ............ U
........ C =>... V

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Last edited by Calisson on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:19 am
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Rending Star
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Calisson wrote:
Chances are that they are now very, very far away from A, B and C.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yep!


A situation I had in mind for this is, when your strong unit is on one flank and a Harpy unit on the other, your strong unit's charge will drive the fleeing unit right towards the Harpies. They get 10" more Movement than those 2d6" the unit flees from them, so depending on the situation, it could be easy enough to reach them and destroy them. So kinda like what you said at the end of your post, Calisson.


Ok, so only one Stand & Shoot, that is what I though, I just didn't find the rule for it.

MyrkrDreki wrote:
(cant find the rule atm either)


At least, I am not alone with this... ;)

Bye
Thanee


Last edited by Thanee on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:34 am
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Shade
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This is one of the situation you can exploit when combo charging with a hydra and dark riders, many people fear the charge of that thing when it has not yet used its breath attack...

Possibly mulitple flees can make more of his units panic.

Intresting tactic to be used against gunlines, this can run small units of the table without any blow; really need to implement this in one of my battles.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:36 am
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Corsair
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Trouble withHarpies playing Ping-pong
A => ............ U ............ <= B
C =>............ V

Make sure that B is not too close:
if ever U or V flee past B (or if they come within 1", they have to get across B and stop only 1" behind), then you cannot declare anymore a charge with B who cannot see them (remember, skirmishers have now a 90° LOS).
Worse, A and C charge move will be blocked by B and they will stop 1" before, so B might become the best safeguard for U and V. :x

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:44 am
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Highborn
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@Thanee please try to read and and or acquire the BRB please as to avoid confusion before posting anything specially in this thread. It gets confusing and you wouldn't want to pass on information that may mislead.Thank you.

Yes its a novel idea of multiple charging and fleeing but realistically speaking what unit would flee that many times? What we should like focus on is the advantage of being the one who charges. It seems that nowadays Cavalry has taken a huge blow but I believe that COK are still viable. The additional movement and swiftstride allows use to use redirects more effectively with addition of the extra protection fear has to offer. Anyway back to topic, sequential charging should be studied more as unlike before targets that were impossible to charge before can now be...well charged.

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:46 am
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Rending Star
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As I said above, I do not see this as an "active tactic" that you set up deliberately (might be possible, but with difficulties), but rather something to watch out for in the game, because it can very easily happen in the mid- or late-game, and can be an easy source for VP. Especially in the late-game, now that fleeing units still grant 0 VP, if they remain on the table.

My main point is, that you should (normally) hold your fast unit charges back and declare other units first, so that you have potentially more charge options with your fast units.

It's quite different to what was done in the 6th/7th edition.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Of course, I do have the book (the nice one, even :)). And I absolutely rechecked my first post, after the initial replies (because I didn't realize that you can actually make multiple flee reactions now), to edit it accordingly, if necessary, but there is no validity problem in there, since I worded it careful enough. I don't see what you mean with "confusing", really. ;)


Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:58 am
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Highborn
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After reading the post I was like, huh that's not how it is so I had to reread it again. I've palyed like 5 games in 8th ed and some of the new rules are still mixed with my 7th ed rules thus the confusion.

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:45 am
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Rending Star
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If you could point out what part exactly seems confusing I will gladly edit it to make it clearer. :)

And I totally agree, that 7th and 8th edition rules are still being mixed (only played three games so far also).

This is part of the reason I posted this, because it is something (the way charges work now), that is very different to the way it was handled before.

Bye
Thanee


Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:06 am
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7th and 8th is stil mixed for me too now and then. Therefore I like theese questions about rules. Even if I think I know something, it makes me having to quote pages and so on, and therefore I as well will learn a bit when trying to explain the rules.

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Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:19 pm
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Hi there,

I find this revelation can be very funny to use when unexpected, but...which units will be fleeding from ours? Unless it is an Execs horde, most of our units are not that threatening anymore. I mean, i wouldn't flee from a 20 man BG with my Warriors of chaos, nor would i with my 50 man Slaves...


Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:06 pm
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You make a very, very good point about having a fast unit in concert with a dangerous unit, to try to disuade the enemy from fleeing: the rather brutal 'just 2D6 flee, even if cavalry', definatly gets to bite you in the rear. it is not something I can see that you would often set-up, (as has been said, these days we don't have much that you can guarantee people are going to try to run from, save a Hydra...), but you only have to do it to someone once to make them consider standing and taking the charge.

As for the reduced efficacy of cavalry? Yes, you can no longer realistically expect to smash them into the front of an infantry block, and expect them to win. Or give them a reasonable chance at breaking the block. VS a monster? Much more likely to do some nasty hurt, but then again that was true before too. What I see them excelling in is the oft-forgotten, (and depending on your era, historically accurate), usage of a set of heavy cavalry on the flank of your army, to hit the enemy infantry in the flank. Not forgetting that if you flank with 10 CoK, you:

1) Get the +1 Flank bonus
2) Reduce the incomming attacks back, as you can only support to the front, (atleast during combat round 1).
3) Disrupt the enemy, meaning they have no rank bonus, nor do they get to be steadfast.

Suddenly, the rather nasty 'shock' charge of the Cavalry is more than able to break a unit. This came up in my local group, when several people were exclaiming that Silverhelms, Empire Knights, etc. were just useless now. Far from useless, I contend, you just can't put them down and aim them at your target of choice, and effectively have them play themselves...

As for Fast Cavalry? Well, their role has definatly...diminished, especially for those kinds that don't get to tote projectile weaponry, but they can still do some maneouverable disruption, aswell as go to run-down already fleeing units. That would tend to hold with historical prescedent too. It's just that, points wise, it's hard to justify having room for that now...


Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:25 am
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we've sort of covered this before, I thought under Boxing?

If you took A 2*5 set of Harpies lining one direction, and charged (lets say 5*5 Execs *shrug*) and then you had 6*5 Corsairs opposite one of the other units, you use Slaver rule if they run from the Corsairs, the fast to keep them held until the other units get the additional attacking

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Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:31 pm
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