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How much magic is too much? 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:22 pm
Posts: 26
As a converted 40K player one of the exciting things about Fantasy is all the Magic. So naturally I am tending toward a magic-heavy army (and is one reason I got DE in the first place).

I am thinking of a fairly infantry-heavy army:
30+ spears
2x14 RXB
20 Corsairs + Master/BSB
5 CoKs
Hydra
probably a few shades or harpies or something

I'm not a fan of the Khainite story (shouldn't it be spelled "Khorne"...?) so, no CoB, no WE, etc.

I would love to run 3 Sorceresses:
* Lvl 4, probably Lore of Metal
* Lvl 2 with Fire,
* Lvl 2 with Death or Shadow, dagger

Is this overkill? If it is overkill, does it matter that much? Should I eke out some points for a Dreadlord, or is having an SS as General viable (despite Ld9)?

edit: I am aiming at 2500, as that's what gets played around here.


Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:55 pm
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Shade

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:04 pm
Posts: 109
Location: Maryland, USA
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There are only so many power dice to go around now in 8E. Even though DE can generate some extra dice with PoD and carry items like the dagger and the cloak I'm not totally sold on lots of wizards.

That being said, I haven't tried it yet and wouldn't mind hearing how successful or not successful it is.


Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:23 pm
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Black Guard
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 288
Location: Canada
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I'm still new also so take what I say with that in mind. But, as mentioned, the power dice is the limiting factor in how much magic is too much. If you are taking 8 levels of spells you will struggle to get them all off since the average dice you get from winds of magic is 7. On the other hand, it does give you a greater chance of getting the spells you want and gives you more options for the magic phase, but you are paying points to have that luxury which could probably be better spent.

Now DE of course have some advantages in getting more dice such as PoD, dagger, cloak, and so on. Even a level 1 can be worthwhile tactically. Throw 1 dice as PoD and if you make it (3+) then it becomes 2-4 dice to throw at whatever spell you have (say, a character sniping death spell) and if you don't it's only 1 dice lost.

So overall I'd say you need to figure what spells you are going for and consider how many dice it will take to at least make their casting values reliably and make sure you are going to generate that more often than not, otherwise it will be lots of wasted points. I'm all for trying out a magic heavy army myself and will probably put together a list sooner than later with 3 or even 4 sorcs to see how it does.

The other big factor of course is that how much magic you "need" will really depend on your opponent's setup. The real key when putting together any list is that you need to have an answer to whatever the opponent puts down on the table. If he has warmachines or a gunline setup what is your plan to deal with them before getting blown to peices? If he puts down some big beasty what are you doing about it? If he is rolling a deathstar how are you going to avoid it or take care of it? This is a real strength of the DE book in that there are a lot of versatile and balanced combos you will be fielding maybe without even realizing it that let you handle whatever comes your way.

My 2c


Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:22 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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I tried a slightly more magic heavy set up some nights ago. I normally just use a SS with Darkstar Cloak and a lv2 with tome of furion and it suffices. (I take Dark magic lv4 and Shadow lv2)

It works fine like that, it can be really hard to get those shadow spells off with only a +2 modifier, since from spell #3 onwards, it jumps from 10+ to 13+ to cast, but it's ok for me since Shadow is just for support, its spells aren't mandatory (unless we need mindrazor for forty spearmen fighting a WoC deathstar unit then that's a different story- eight dice IF go go!). I've swapped lv4 to shadow a few times, i found it worked out worse, which i wasn't surprised. A lv4 using Dark Magic consumes fewer dice, saving that extra one or two to fund shadow spells from my lv2.

The other night I added in a lv1 mage into the mix. I intended to swap out Darkstar Cloak for a Dagger for my lv4 (forgot about the equipment switch :P), who went shadow. My lv2 kept her same kit and took fire (wanted to try it out) and my lv1 took dark magic for chillwind spell. Only one measly extra spell into the mix, I scored six PD on average in my game against WE, and consistently channeled an extra die.

During the turns where not all my spells were required, it was ok. When it came to requiring all my debuffs from shadow against his dragon munching my spears, then chillwind and miasma to fire control his fifty glade guards, then sword of rhuine to chop his treeman up etc etc, it required a lot of risk to gather just enough PD, which I only partially succeeded with.

The issue is that if you fail to cast, that's it for that sorceress for that magic phase. And when you really need your spells to go off, you don't want to just throw one die at PoD on your first cast for your lv4, and you want to make sure you cast a spell off at a value that's hard to dispel, so you add an extra die in etc etc.

I imagine it would've been a whole different story if I had used the Dagger, it would've allowed me to use the minimum PD from the pool and bumped them up if necessary, giving more dice for my lv2 and 1 to use. So I reckon it's feasible going lv4 and two lv2s, but you'll really need that sacrificial dagger. I'm going to try double lv4 next, and I definitely will be taking Dagger for the shadow mage.

And that's the other thing to consider too, as masamune had said, it depends on what lores you're taking and what spells from them you want/need, that's your major determining factor for how much PD you'll be consuming and the appropriate equipment to help solve that financial crisis. Note you probably won't be using half of your spells each phase anyway, you might be using fireball and chillwind at turn 1 and 2, sniping the BSB at turn 3 with death spells, then the withering and mindrazor in turn 4 and 5 when you're in CC.

That's my feedback from what I've experienced so far for 8th ed. But definitely don't go <3 mages or else you'll have jack all hitting power and too many spells unfunded!

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:18 am
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Black Guard
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:48 pm
Posts: 288
Location: Canada
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Meteor wrote:
The issue is that if you fail to cast, that's it for that sorceress for that magic phase. And when you really need your spells to go off, you don't want to just throw one die at PoD on your first cast for your lv4, and you want to make sure you cast a spell off at a value that's hard to dispel, so you add an extra die in etc etc.

I imagine it would've been a whole different story if I had used the Dagger, it would've allowed me to use the minimum PD from the pool and bumped them up if necessary, giving more dice for my lv2 and 1 to use. So I reckon it's feasible going lv4 and two lv2s, but you'll really need that sacrificial dagger. I'm going to try double lv4 next, and I definitely will be taking Dagger for the shadow mage.
As you mentioned, this is why I think dagger is almost an absolute must on your level 4. You really want to keep things going and that extra spell or two is probably going to pay off many times more than the lives of two or three warriors or crossbows. I know some people don't like it but really any real DE wouldn't think twice about killing his own troops.

This is also something I was sort of getting at with using the level 1 (instead of a level 2) so that you can better afford to just throw 1 die at PoD. If the level 2 misses then her second spell option is gone too. A level 1 just taking a signature spell is a pretty reliable unit in getting that off thanks to PoD. Death is a good candidate for this I feel since for just 100 points you can snipe off enemy characters at 24" (10+ cast) and each wound you cause gives you a 1/3 chance to add more dice to the power pool. So if you happen to cause more than 1 wound and get a bit lucky you can actually end up making more dice available to your other sorcs.

The situational uses and progression of spells you mentioned is also a good point to consider. You have to also think about when you can use your spells based on their range and combat situations etc. So you won't just be throwing down a purple sun and pit of shades and black horror every turn by any stretch (so many seem to just focus on the ideal situations for maxed out units and spells). This is one reason why I really like shadow since you can lay down debuffs (a couple that remain in play) basically the whole game, they never stop being useful, where things like chillwind are more situational - only good against shooting units (which not everyone takes) and typically only in the first couple turns of the game.


Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:06 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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Quote:
As you mentioned, this is why I think dagger is almost an absolute must on your level 4. You really want to keep things going and that extra spell or two is probably going to pay off many times more than the lives of two or three warriors or crossbows. I know some people don't like it but really any real DE wouldn't think twice about killing his own troop


Yes you are quite right, no DE would think twice about killing his own troops. I certainly didn't tonight when I ran my duo lv4s (though I got IF on turn one and lost three magic levels on my shadow mage who had the dagger!!!). But even so, I still prefer a Darkstar Cloak over the Dagger. It's not like the dagger stops you from consuming PD from the communal pool, it'll reduce your consumption rate, which is marvelous, but still requires you to consume that pool. The difference in advantage between dagger and cloak is the number of PD you generate each phase. Darkstar cloak will benefit more when you have a low number of dice, dagger will be godlike if you generated like ten PD.

Picture this; you get six PD from winds of magic. With a dagger, you use up one plus a warrior to cast PoD, safer approach yes, but your communal pool is now left with five. A Darkstar cloak will yield a total of seven PD, six communal, one private. You use your private die for PoD, your communal pool is left with six still. One more die for your other mages to use. In the long run, dagger probably is better off.

But in a case where you generated five PD, you might want to throw all five at mindrazor for your lv2. Leaving no PD for your lv4 to use in conjunction with dagger. Your lv4 could use one, leaving you with four PD, your lv2 might then try PoD, leaving behind three PD to share. Your opponent might dispel PoD. Now you can't cast your all important Mindrazor as easily. Similarly, a Darkstar cloak will give one private die, and five communal dice. Your lv2 could throw all five dice at Mindrazor and you still have one die to hit off PoD and continue to cast a spell or two.

And Dagger limits where your mage should go. She needs to stick to a group of warriors of some sort to stab for full effect. I personally like the freedom to move, even popping out of a unit before it gets charged, and continue benefiting from the cloak.

Quote:
This is also something I was sort of getting at with using the level 1 (instead of a level 2) so that you can better afford to just throw 1 die at PoD. If the level 2 misses then her second spell option is gone too. A level 1 just taking a signature spell is a pretty reliable unit in getting that off thanks to PoD.


True indeed too. It's also another point for determining the appropriate number of mages you require. For example, tomorrow I'm playing a 4000pt game, I'm planning on taking Lore of Fire for its good spread of mass damage, support and crowd control. I'm thinking of taking a lv1 with fire who'll take fireball if she generates nothing else interesting. The lv4 fire mage will benefit from the D3 boost against the initial target, making it possible to even try the tier3 fireball to absolutely incinerate the target. I might then wrap it up with a lv2 shadow sorceress with Tome. (I love shadow ;) ). That'll give me a good mix of damage, buffs/debuffs and control, anymore sorceresses and it'll start leaning towards the 'too much magic' side of things since anymore spells become somewhat redundant. I could take Ruby Ring for fireball, leaving my lv1 mage to take Death signature for some cheap sniping and PD generating, or upgrade her to a lv2 or lv4 (need dagger then) for uhh...something... :o

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:19 pm
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