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Am i the only one? 
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:27 pm
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Location: Yorkhire, The True North!
I am one of the only Druchii General's who does NOT field a CoB?

95% of the lists i read include one (i play at 3k), and although i have the model painted, it normally sits on my shelf looking pretty.

While i appreciate the buffs from the cauldron are good, i dont regullary take many khainites, therefore not really warranting the frenzy and for the points cost, i'd much rather take more DR/Knights/Spear men?

I have, i would consider a good perfromance records with my dark elves. (Havent lost a game with them in 13 games, my empire on the other hand die in droves and when i borrow my mates dwarves, i actually might as well not bother deploying them on the field they die that quick!)

But i know that many Dark Elf players swear by this item. I have read all the tactics on them but in 99% of my lists, i cannot justify the points cost.

Am i missing a trick here? Am i the only non-khainite crazy general in the North? Please let me know

Kind Regards

D


Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:53 pm
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Your not the only one, I have not taken one since our 6th edition book. Im with you on not been able to justify the cost of both a Hag and the CoB, I always find my points used up in other areas before I get to things like the CoB.

with magic been able to give your units boosts in this edition I have seen quite a few people using this instead of the CoB as well. While the spells are not 100% like the CoB is I think the people using this method prefer the flexibility that magic offers, as well as been able to weaken your opponents which is something that the CoB cannot do.

Like you, unless I am missing something truly amazing about them mine will also continue its life on the shelves instead of on the table.

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Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:12 am
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:22 pm
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I dislike the Khainite fluff, and almost certainly won't be fielding one. (If I do, there may be a proxy model used.)

It seems like it's a nice, guaranteed, extra spell per turn--with some fairly nice 'spells'--and it's largely indestructible in 8th. But the very fact that "everyone" is taking it says to me that I shouldn't! Generally it means something is too cheap for its benefit.

(One side note: the flexibility of choosing what unit to affect, and with what enhancement, is very valuable; when estimating its value, make sure you account for that. A banner, or a magic item, tends to stay with the same unit the entire battle.)


Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:46 am
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I used not to take a COB for the reason afeinman mentioned: Khainite fluff, almost opposite to corsair's fluff (you don't destroy the goods you intend to sale, do you?). For a similar reason (fluff), I never ever imagined to use the dagger for my sorceresses.

Until I started using one COB. After tasting its flexibility, it is difficult to go back.
Now, most of the time, the COB is one of my essential unit, despite having no Exec and no WE (and, in the 8th ed, using no longer assassins).

Why? Why do I appreciate the usefulness of that COB despite the fluff?

As said: the COB is a unit buff.
It can compare to a magic banner, to the BSB or to magic buffs.

Let’s examine, for all our buffs, the following characteristics: price – vulnerability – flexibility – reliability – buff’s power – added benefits.

Banner:
price: cheap. 6-14 pts for the bearer, plus 5-50 pts for the banner = 11 to 64 pts.
vulnerability: Low. Unkillable until the unit is destroyed or flees combat. Worth 25 more VPs. The vulnerability becomes high in small units.
flexibility: None. Army list choice. Stuck inside the unit. Always the same effect. One bright note however, you can take many of them.
reliability: 100%. Some effects are subject to a dice roll, though. On a side note, some magic objects may loose their magic.
buff’s power: 16 banners to choose, for various effects.
added benefits: Surprise effect (magic banner + which magic banner). +1 CR.

BSB:
price: high. 115-135 for the bearer, plus 5-125 pts for the banner = 120-260 pts.
vulnerability: high. The highest bounty is on his head (100VPs). Preferred target in melee. Autokilled if he flees a melee. Usually needs to be in melee for the banner to work. Can be sniped (shooting or magic) when not in melee. The vulnerability increases in small units (no more “Look Out, Sir”. Don’t expect him to last the battle.
flexibility: Low. Army list choice. Must be inside unit for the banner’s effect (except BoN). Always the same effect. But he can change units if you have 1 turn notice.
reliability: 100%. Some effects are subject to a dice roll, though. On a side note, some magic objects may loose their magic.
buff’s power: 19 banners to choose, for various effects.
added benefits: Reroll all Ld tests at 12” (assuming not on a Manti). Surprise effect (magic banner confirmed + which magic banner). +1 CR.

Spells:
price: high. 100 to 260 pts, plus arcane objects 15-70 pts = 100-330 pts plus mount.
vulnerability: high. Little armour. Hopeless in melee. Needs to avoid melees. Can be sniped by magic/shooting if not in melee, and the lack of armour does not help. May even commit suicide.
flexibility: excellent. Can choose among her spells. Can choose the unit to buff, some spells can buff several units.
reliability: low. May not get the spell you wish, unless you take 6 levels of sorcery. The spell may not be cast. It may be dispelled or scrolled. A miscast may have you loose your spell (and/or your spell caster).
buff’s power: 5 Lores to choose, some have very powerful buffs.
added benefits: None.

COB:
price: high. 200pts. You can add some Gifts of Khaine and magic banner, up to 400pts.
vulnerability: low. Avoids naturally melees. Very sturdy in melee. Very resistant to shooting, except cannons. Very resistant to magic, except very few spells which autokill it.
flexibility: high. Selection of the buff and the recipient unit each turn. Good range.
reliability: 100%. Range can be measured. No dispel, no scroll, no miscast.
buff’s power: only 3 to choose, but they are all excellent.
added benefits: Khainite units are stubborn in vicinity. Can become BSB.

Cumulating buffs.
You have only 1 pennant per unit, 1 BSB, 1 of each spell, 1 blessing per unit, but they can cumulate: pennant + BSB + spell + COB's blessing on a single unit.
Taking all four of them is probably overkill (sometimes, it's gooood to overkill).
Dispatching them to different units according to your needs is nice, too.


In summary,
all 4 unit's buffs have advantages and drawbacks. The best buff vary according to your army style. Not all of them are necessary.
You can do very well without a COB, with pennants, BSB and magic.
You can even have an army style where little buffs are required, especially if you play an evasive, distant attack style, which can be done with DE.

If your army doesn't require high flexibility (especially if your melee units are few and large), then you're better off with pennants and BSB than spending the cost for the COB. If your tactics is to avoid melee, then the cost of a COB is worth sparing, too.

If you value more the flexibility to be able to buff the one of your many units which will be going into the game-breaking melee, then magic and COB are worth the investment, more than pennants and BSB. This is the most valuable in MSE armies, where you cannot buy pennants to them all and the BSB cannot jump everywhere.

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Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:08 am
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Black Guard
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I'll finish reading what Calisson had to say there in a sec but just would throw in a couple quick points.

A BSB is so powerful in 8th that you would almost be foolish not to have one. Making the cauldron your BSB is not much more expensive than most other BSB setups and you get decent protection (save attribute tests :P but then the BSB would fail all but I most likely anyways) PLUS the cauldron's "spell" which can really compliment some lists. In other words, the marginal cost of the cauldron is fairly low and it can really have a huge impact on the game.

I would not say it's essential by any means and especially not on it's own merits. While you see many cauldron lists I don't think you see too many where the cauldron isn't the BSB.

Cauldron BSB is just a solid way to go so I think that's why you see so many lists using it.


Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:32 am
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Rending Star
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Yep, that's pretty much it. The BSB is mandatory and the CoB is a good place for the BSB in 8th.

You don't need Khainites to make the CoB useful. Having those is just the icing on the cake, so to say. The main usefulness is good protection for the BSB and the blessings, which are really quite versatile and always useful.

Bye
Thanee


Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:46 am
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Executioner
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CoB's blessings - it is a thing that made for winning combats (except 5+ ward for going into combat or receive charges). Combat-orientated BSB could be even more useful (but CoB is still more flexy - could bless unit in 24'').

Personally I still take a CO BSB with scourge and RoD. It works quite well in 9+1 unit of COK's and cost less than CoB.

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Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:17 pm
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I have never used a Cauldron and have still won many games. They are by no means mandatory.

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Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:24 pm
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It's pretty mandatory in my lists now, with the changes to BsB, and the cauldron in general. Love it.

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Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:33 pm
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Agreed that virtually every list should have a battle standard bearer, and if you're paying the points for one of those anyway, upgrading to a Cauldron is pretty efficient and worthwhile.

The only reason I would NOT take one is because they're becoming very popular, and since most of my games are played in tournament environments, I stand to lose out on comp points for taking too many "mainstream" choices. However, in terms of pure effectiveness, I think the Cauldron is excellent. I have yet to lose it in my 8th edition games, and the buffs provide unparalleled flexibility even though I don't use Executioners or Witches.

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Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:34 pm
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Never used one. I think it costs too much. 1 + attack will swing most fights for you, and KB can grant you a few extra kills, but for 200 points you can get loads of other models. And often you wont even need the buffs to win combats. Even the 1 + attack benefits only the front row, giving 5-7 attacks at most. An assassin with manbane can do the same thing in one unit a lot better. I think the caludron just doesn't suit my play style, though I always field a big unit of exes.


Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:09 am
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It does depend a bit on what kind of list you are running.

Combat heavy lists: the cauldron is very handy: nothing beats getting an extra attack each on the front row of that unit of 12 cold one knights or killing blow on that unit of 40 corsairs.

Missile line and magic focused armies: the cauldron can be useful for buffing your anchor units (5+ ward save is pretty handy) or for making that rather feeble looking unit of crossbowmen suddenly much more of a threat (muhaha, I just charged your unit of chaos knights with a unit of 20 crossbowmen, who are now hitting you with 20, hatred killing blow attacks). But it is quite expensive and doesn't add much to your modus victorii (shooting your enemy to bits).

I wouldn't say the Cauldron is essential. It is expensive, and a bit circumstantial:
- 5+ ward saves are nice, but not game changing.
- Killing blow is very handy, but doesn't always pay dividends (particularly vs horde armies),
- +1 attack is useful, but again has limited value versus armies with high toughness and armour saves.

But the versatility makes a big difference. You can take your pick as to which you use, depending on who you are facing (which I imagine is particularly handy for tournament lists...):
- 5+ ward save is good vs shooty opponents,
- Killing blow is nice versus high armoured, tough opponents
- +1 attack is nice versus horde armies.

I guess its like any druchii unit really: it has lots of value if you want to use it, but the army doesn't rely on it and you can happily win without it. Which is nice, as it allows you to make a style based choice rather than a power gaming based choice.

Personally I do tend to run it, but not always.

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Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:50 am
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Executioner

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Main rason for COB is to hide BSB in for many armies. But the flexibility is awsome. KB on frenzied corsairs against knights, +1 atack on COK/Exec, ward save on witch elfts/spear blocks etc. The khainite stubborn thing is pretty much useless though. For many players its kind of a crutch, like the hydra its very much worths its points and considerd op/broken by quit a few opponents. Not brining one will be considerd a nice surprise for your opponent and should buy you some goodwill points maby.

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Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:20 pm
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I don't use the CoB, but my army would benefit from it especially in this edition! All the blessings can turn a close combat form your opponents favour to yours! especially for you non-elite units. It is almost always worth taking.

I don't because I constructed my army for the previous edition and built it around dual charging to maximize killing power and static combat... so I didn't really need it. since I aimed at breaking the enemy rather then kill them in combat...

But hey now we got a messed up movement phase with weary long charges and bitter close combat...


Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:33 am
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I really don't understand this "Cauldron is expensive" argument.

If you're fielding an army, you're probably taking a BSB. If you're taking a BSB, you're probably using a Master with a fair amount of magic items, mundane wargear, and the battle standard itself.

Once you add up all those points, it's cheaper than a Cauldron (though not by much.) However, the Cauldron provides buffs, and a certain kind of durability. I'm perfectly alright with paying 40-odd points to have access to Cauldron buffs, and a Toughness 10 warmachine with a ward save that's brilliant for drawing fire.

Think the Cauldron's too vulnerable to magic? So is a Master BSB. However, at least Pit of Shades and Purple Sun have a high casting value; the Death Sniper spells are much easier to cast, so you still end up losing your BSB, and your opponent used fewer dice to achieve it ;)

So yes, I don't believe at all in "mandatory" units, and any player should use the units that interest them, but saying the Cauldron is "too expensive" when you're already fielding a Master BSB seems odd to me.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:45 pm
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I think of it this way: must be Cost Effective

Wife is learning Lizzies, right? So, she was about to kick it up a notch and buy a Slann, and asked about it. At this point, were still in the nice 1500-2100 point range and he's a 400 point behemoth. He can take quite a few things to FORCE you to get all the way up, with magic weapons ONLY and suck the magic right out of you. She asked her board and Half swear by it down to the minimum allowed point range, and the other half would NEVER touch it unless they were above X points.

I told her it depends more on your play style, and what you're working on learning. In this case- What benefit would it bring? Who would become Stubborn? What would you do to set up Defence around it? Where could you put it so that the most units benefited- that would be particularly important, because your Master (unless he has Nag, at which point... you're in the same point range) only really benefits ONE unit, and can go under pretty quick. How would you use either?

I don't really have an empiracle question for When, but you get my point >.> I hope.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:50 pm
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L1qw1d wrote:
I think of it this way: must be Cost Effective.


What can you get for 200 points and where does the CoB fit in that range of choices.

I think its an excellent choice, but the new magic is luring me away from it. My basic mage is a lvl 4 with dark, but a lvl 2 with metal is good security against heavy armour. For the moment my CoB is retired.

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Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:31 pm
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I run 2-3 units of khainites (horde of execs + 1-2 units of witches). Paying 240 pts. to make these 3 units stubborn is cheap. Throw in the BSB-reroll and the Blessing, and you get a real bargain.

Now, if I didn't use that many khainites, I wouldn't use the thing. A master could get an armor save, hide in a unit and even provide a bonus in combat, and would perform better with a nonkhainite list - I presume ;)


Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:48 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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I don't currently run a CoB, but I want to for one reason - witch elves.

3 attacks (dual weapon plus frenzy), poison weapons, upgrades to better poisons through the hag plus the usual Dark Elf advantages (initiative and hatred). Not to mention awesome miniatures (the hag with the dagger behind her back, beckoning her opposition).

But I run Corsairs instead, even though the Witch Elves are superior in combat for the same price. Why? Because the Corsairs can get into combat. With armour and a sea dragon cloak, Corsairs actually get into hand to hand combat, while witch elves take heavy casualties before they get anywhere near.


Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:51 am
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dafedge wrote:
But I run Corsairs instead, even though the Witch Elves are superior in combat for the same price. Why? Because the Corsairs can get into combat. With armour and a sea dragon cloak, Corsairs actually get into hand to hand combat, while witch elves take heavy casualties before they get anywhere near.


I've never had a problem getting witches into combat intact. No-one cares if corsairs get into combat because they are only S-3 with 2 attacks.

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:35 am
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Quote:
No-one cares if corsairs get into combat because they are only S-3 with 2 attacks.


It's very unusual to run EHW corsairs without the SSS banner.

The main difference between the two in terms of combat output is that corsairs have a 5+ CC save vs witches lack of save, witches can be given a banner on top of their existing frenzy (whereas the SSS corsairs can not, as they need the banner to make them frenzied), witches have poison (a mixed blessing, as if you're using the cauldron to give killing blow then it reduces your chances of getting one), and witches can be made stubborn by the cauldron if its within 12".

Anyway, this is a tangent.

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:23 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

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Quote:
No-one cares if corsairs get into combat because they are only S-3 with 2 attacks.


This is on the assumption that you're throwing it at titans and expecting them to survive. With 8th edition, far more of the people around me seem willing to take weaker but larger units. Corsairs on Skeletons, for example, means it's s3 v t3, which means 4+ to wound.

Then again, most Dark Elves are S3, so it's kind of a moot point.


Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:28 am
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The main reason for me to take a CoB aside from it being probably the safest place to hide a BSB, is its KB blessing. All its blessings are useful, really boosts the combat power of all your regular S3 troops. It's a nice quick fix against characters and heavy cavalry without needing to be very fancy and tricky. Just need a lucky 6 to wound out of at least nine attacks. Though I took a CoB to boost my five CoK into ten attack killers, for monster hunting, except, I always forget to do that over other more fun things like +1 Attack for witches.

Speaking of WEs, it's true that SSS AHW Corsairs deal the same number of attacks out, for the same points of a single model, and have a save without needing the 5+ ward. The main difference is that poison attack. Against high toughness enemies, the WEs will do much better since you get the maximum chance of wounding the target when you roll to hit Against low toughness enemies...it's not that important then.

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- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:58 am
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Quote:
I am one of the only Druchii General's who does NOT field a CoB?

Defnitly not :-)

I gave it a try some time ago - because I wanted try something new...but in the end it made me feel to limited in my lists. We were playing 2250 points.

After taking the "mandatory" Lv4, Lv2 and the CoB I had the choice to go for a combat charakter/hunter - which would result in having "few" points left for the rest...In the games I had not the immpression that the blessings made the difference for me.
Anyway I will take the discussion (and the fact having problems to keep my BSB save) to give it a new try :-)


Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:06 pm
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It'll be handy when faced with things like flamers in combat with your spears

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Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

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Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:59 pm
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