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first game of WFB against high elves (tips :D) 
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:43 am
Posts: 18
Location: look out your window...if you see me,your there
hey guys, well im going to have my first game of warhammer soon and it's going to be 1000 pts against high elves. I'm a little worried as I've heard of they're really good infantry and they're ASF rule and I was wondering if any of you have ever faced HE what worked for you and if you could share it here :D thx for youre help and if you want to see my army list heres a link

http://druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=66577

Thanks so much

warghost


Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:49 pm
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Shade

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:55 pm
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Location: GA
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I'm new to DE's myself but I have found out the hard way that playing a strategic game is most important. I've never played HE yet but my friend has them and is always ranting on about ASF and his Standard of Balance that neutralizes hate. So i figure just to mess around I would bring this if I played a 1k game against HE.

Lord
SS(she's lvl 3) + scroll + dark magic (its just fun who cares) 250pts
Hero
DH with COB (more experiments) +1 attack on BG 200pts
Core
DEW x25 command +shields 190pts

Crossbows x10 naked 100pts
Special
BG x15 FC + Standard of HG 260pts

1000pts

Take Chillwind with Sorc any other spells are a bonus. Cast chillwind on any ranged unit he has, if you get blade wind that can take care of his bolt thrower if he has one. Sit the COB in the back to Bless your BG with bloodshield if your worried about them getting shot at then switch to fury of Khaine for +1 attack giving you 3 attacks with re-rolls b/c of warrior elite or bless with Strength of Khaine for KB.

The banner on them neutralizes any ASF they HE's have and it makes you strike simultaneously... (if i read the rules right)

The warriors add shielding to your BG since the BG are the strong unit here. Crossbows can be used to slaughter a few advancing Swordsmen or whatever else he throws at you...

Or something a little more wild, drop tome of furion and give your sorc a dark pegasus with RoH, you'll be short a couple of points from 1000. You can put her near your COK or Warriors depending on where you need the most protection from spells. I would hope you dont have to worry much about rolling doubles on 2D6 to cast spells to get chillwind off. If your scared roll 1D6. Or you can use her to soar across the board and land close to the most expensive unit and cast spells... if you miscast you have 3 wounds because of the mount and you can possibly get a large template S10 hit off on them...


Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:26 am
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Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
Posts: 366
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HE have incredibly strong infantry in close combat, and an okay magic phase. In direct comparison we have stronger shooting (RXBs will slice through any infantry he chooses to bring), stronger magic (sacrificial dagger and PoD allow obscene amounts of power dice), and if we pick our fights well we can beat them directly in combat too.

As for your army list, I would take the champion out of the CoK, maybe stick a black dragon egg on the sorceress (if she's going to end up in combat then eat the egg, she can resist the worst of the attacks and pump out 2d6 strength 4 hits). Other than this I would try and add more bodies to your units so you have enough to strike back in combat.

Tactically, I'll give you a basis for making your decisions:
If you reckon you can cause more damage to your opponent with shooting/magic then keep away from him and do as much damage as possible before getting into combat. Try to focus your damage on one unit at a time until it is completely destroyed; nearly dead is worth nothing at the end of the game.

Magic: chillwind/bladewind go well as described by DutchOven. Doombolt his elite infantry and cavalry, soulstealer or black horror any large unit of his, and save a single power dice (if you have a spare spell) for the end of the phase so you can cast PoD and get some surprise power dice on a 3+


Your spearmen will hold up his weaker units for a turn or two, corsairs will be good to kill off already weakened units, and CoK are best deployed on the flank and used to charge a HE unit thats already in combat. Keep your shades away from his units, though they should be able to take out his bolt throwers in close combat, and just shoot him with them, or pick off lone characters.

Don't worry if it doesn't go as planned, I've played hundreds of games and I'm still learning, just remember to have fun!

Enjoy, and let usknow how you do :)


Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:31 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 186
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Would suggest
lv 2 with tome as is also your choice = 150
30 spears fc ( no shields )with warbanner 220
20 xb with shields and mus = 225
2x6 harpies = 120
COC = 100
Hydra = 175
Total 990 or something
Prioritice shooting at swordmasters ( Im sure he brings them ) or Dragon princes
Put your spears up front and keep the COC abit back to support it. User harpies to take out RBT`s or shooters
Remember to move your crossbows up when most things are locked in combat, they are sturdy figters aswell. Good luck

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:19 am
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
In direct comparison we have stronger shooting (RXBs will slice through any infantry he chooses to bring),


Not really. It's about even.

Yes, we get repeating shots and a -1 save bonus, but:

But their archers get volley fire at a 30" range. Their lothern seaguard double up as spearmen and archers with volley fire with a 24" range. Their repeater bolt throwers are just as capable as ours.

In addition, many of their troops are resilient to shooting (in particular, white lions get a nice anti missile fire armour bonus and phoenix guard have a really nasty 4+ ward save).


Quote:
stronger magic (sacrificial dagger and PoD allow obscene amounts of power dice),


Actually, its about even again. They get the standard of +D3 extra power dice, drain magic and the option to take dragon mages (gets a free dice every time he casts a spell), as well as access to more lores (including lore of light).


Quote:
Special
BG x15 FC + Standard of HG 260pts


Any high elf player worth his salt will empty all of his repeater bolt thrower, archery and magic firepower into this unit on turns 1 and 2. It is highly unlikely to make it across the board, even with the 5+ ward save.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:04 am
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Highborn

Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:30 pm
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Red: Volley fire does not help a unit's shooting, it helps their CC. To use volley fire you need to be in more than 2 ranks, which gives you less shots than you would get if you deployed in 2 ranks. Therefore, it does not benefit shooting at all. Deploying your unit in more than 2 ranks does help them in CC though. So, volley fire decreasing the penalty you get on shooting output when deploying in more than 2 ranks makes it more viable for a unit to deploy in more than two ranks, helping the unit in CC.

The only exception is when you don't have enough space to fit your shooters in two ranks.

I also disagree with saying that their troops are more resilient against shooting than ours. You mention white lions, they get a 4+ AS against RXBs. Corsairs get a 4+ AS against bows. They die at the same rate, but the lions are 50% more expensive.
When compariong archers and RXBs your see that the archers get no save, while the RXBs get a 5+ save. Not to mention that out chariots are T5, which makes a huge difference against S3 hits.

I really don't doubt that DE could beat HE in a shooting contest.

On the other hand, we all know that shooting is for weaklings :P


Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:25 am
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
Red: Volley fire does not help a unit's shooting, it helps their CC. To use volley fire you need to be in more than 2 ranks, which gives you less shots than you would get if you deployed in 2 ranks. Therefore, it does not benefit shooting at all. Deploying your unit in more than 2 ranks does help them in CC though. So, volley fire decreasing the penalty you get on shooting output when deploying in more than 2 ranks makes it more viable for a unit to deploy in more than two ranks, helping the unit in CC.


Volley fire does help an army's shooting, as it allows you to deploy more units across the table. The problem with non volley fire units is that they take up more frontage, providing you with less space for deploying additional units. A unit of 30 archers deployed as 6x5 may have less shots than a unit of 30 RxBs deployed as 15x2, but they also take up a third of the frontage space, so you can fit nearly 3 units into the same horizontal space. Quite a big difference.

Quote:
The only exception is when you don't have enough space to fit your shooters in two ranks.


That's actually quite a big exception when you're running lots of shooting against one another. Nothing is more irritating than being unable to shoot your opponent because your blocked by other units, which is a problem we face with our non-volley fire troops far more than they will with their volley fire troops.

Oh, and CC advantages do play a role in terms of comparing shooting. Our shooters are easier to rout (as we're unlikely to get stalwart as we'll generally be formed up in two or three ranks, whereas volley fire troops probably will be stalwart, as they will be lined up in lots of ranks), so we're far more likely to get savaged by anti missile counter measures (e.g. charged in the flank by ellryllian reavers) than they are.

Quote:
I also disagree with saying that their troops are more resilient against shooting than ours. You mention white lions, they get a 4+ AS against RXBs. Corsairs get a 4+ AS against bows. They die at the same rate, but the lions are 50% more expensive.


Corsairs are a core unit with S3. White lions are an elite unit with S6 (once you include their great weapons) and ASF. Phoenix Guard remain devilishly hard to kill from shooting as well. Yes, our chariots are T5, but their Tiranoc chariots have a move of 9" AND can be buffed by the lore of life so that you either need to do it all four wounds on one turn OR it can heal back up again from their lore of life spells. Oh, and lore of life has a very nasty anti-shooting spell too, the one that increases a unit's toughness by 2 or 4, making them all but invulnerable to ranged death.

Quote:
I really don't doubt that DE could beat HE in a shooting contest.


It's a pretty even match up imo. We have lots of advantages, so do they.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:36 am
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Rending Star
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Red... wrote:
Volley fire does help an army's shooting, as it allows you to deploy more units across the table. The problem with non volley fire units is that they take up more frontage, providing you with less space for deploying additional units.


At the typical sized games (i.e. 2-3k) I do not usually run into problems like this, though. :)

Bye
Thanee


Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:25 am
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Assassin

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:33 pm
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You also shouldn't worry about great weapon wielding units, ASF + GW(ASL) means striking at I value, which in most cases we have the better initiative vs the Asur. That means those crazy white lions and swordmasters will be striking at the same time as our core units or AFTER our elite troops.


Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:53 am
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
At the typical sized games (i.e. 2-3k) I do not usually run into problems like this, though.


If you put your RxBs in the centre of your line, you block out a huge chunk of space where your combat units cannot be. If you put them at the edge, they risk becoming irrelevant to the game.

Quote:
You also shouldn't worry about great weapon wielding units, ASF + GW(ASL) means striking at I value, which in most cases we have the better initiative vs the Asur.


I thought ASF was not cancelled for High Elves with great weapons. Either way, we only have three troop types with I6 (witch elves, blackguard and cold one knights), whereas they have two (dragon princes and phoenix guard). Generally, a good high elf general will ping your I6 troops to death with missiles and spells, leaving your I5 troops to face ASF and re-rolling hits.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:00 pm
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Assassin

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:33 pm
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You don't ASF and re-roll unless you I is higher than your opponent, so they wouldn't get to re-roll vs us. Its in the BRB about ASF+ASL. If its in the HE FAQ that they still get to ASF I wouldn't know because I haven't read it yet.


Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:02 pm
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Noble
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thenick18 wrote:
You don't ASF and re-roll unless you I is higher than your opponent, so they wouldn't get to re-roll vs us. Its in the BRB about ASF+ASL. If its in the HE FAQ that they still get to ASF I wouldn't know because I haven't read it yet.

It is in the HE FAQ, and the re-rolls are actually at equal or higher initiative.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:17 pm
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Shade

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:55 pm
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thenick18 wrote:
You don't ASF and re-roll unless you I is higher than your opponent, so they wouldn't get to re-roll vs us. Its in the BRB about ASF+ASL. If its in the HE FAQ that they still get to ASF I wouldn't know because I haven't read it yet.


Ya, equal to or higher meaning our I6 is = to their I6 plus they have ASF which means they get to reroll their hits on us. The banner would nullify their ASF as well as their reroll on hits giving us the advantage of Hate and swinging simultaneously. I still think its a better choice when slapped on a unit of BG or Executioners who can lay waste to a good amount of guys. Executioners can opt to use the GW or HW, both have killing blow.


Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:16 pm
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:02 am
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DutchOven wrote:
Executioners can opt to use the GW or HW, both have killing blow.


Actually, no.

Models that have a weapon other than hand weapon must use it instead, no matter what.


Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:24 pm
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Generalissimo
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Quote:
The banner would nullify their ASF as well as their reroll on hits giving us the advantage of Hate and swinging simultaneously. I still think its a better choice when slapped on a unit of BG


Maybe you play against different high elf opponents than I do, but this is generally the sequence of my games vs high elves:

Turn 1. My blackguard advance. He unleashes 4+ repeater bolt throwers, several echelons of archers and all of his magic against my blackguard (who now can't even be protected by the ring of hotek).

Turn 2. My single remaining blackguard champion looks around and says "wtf happened?" before making a somewhat reluctant beeline back to the woods to hide for the rest of the game by himself.

Most high elf opponents are very aware that the biggest threat to their army is our I6 elite troops, especially the two that can carry the ASF banner (blackguard and CoKs). Both unit types will be on very high on their list of targets for shooting and magic.

Personally I think blackguard are a lot less useful vs high elves than they used to be.

If you are going to use them, at the very least make sure that they have a hero in the unit who is equipped with the ring of darkness and that you have a cauldron of blood giving them the 5+ ward save up until they are in combat. That makes them a bit of a points sink, but at least they'll have a chance of surviving beyond turn 2.

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Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:56 pm
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Shade

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:55 pm
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c_freman wrote:
DutchOven wrote:
Executioners can opt to use the GW or HW, both have killing blow.


Actually, no.

Models that have a weapon other than hand weapon must use it instead, no matter what.


Page Number? I only remember reading that if a character has a magic weapon he must use always. I dont remember it saying you have to use a certain mundane weapon...

And Red... I've never played against HE's yet, I was just taking a guess at what I thought might be an ok army set up.


Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:20 am
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Corsair
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DutchOven wrote:
"Models that have a weapon other than hand weapon must use it instead, no matter what."

Page Number? I only remember reading that if a character has a magic weapon he must use always. I dont remember it saying you have to use a certain mundane weapon...
Top p.89.

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Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:56 am
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Shade

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:55 pm
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Calisson wrote:
DutchOven wrote:
"Models that have a weapon other than hand weapon must use it instead, no matter what."

Page Number? I only remember reading that if a character has a magic weapon he must use always. I dont remember it saying you have to use a certain mundane weapon...
Top p.89.


Cheers :), GW still gives them anything but + 6s = kb


Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:36 pm
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Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
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I accept volley fire as existing, but frankly I have never seen archers use this rule (and I have never seen them make their points back, against DE or ANYBODY). Lothern sea guard admittedly use this, and the shooting they can pump out can be irritating. Is this an issue? They are EXTREMELY expensive if you want to use them as a shooting unit - which no sane elf army does - and in a shoot-off they won't match up to rxb in terms of points and killing power.

I haven't used rxbs in units larger than 20 yet, and from the results of a 20 strong unit in combat I'm not sure I want to, and volley fire doesn't matter to me.

As for magic, HE have a very strong defensive magic phase but we can handle their magic phase without much difficulty. They have a wider selection, but the only lore I would like to have is life. My point is that we have a potent PD generating spell that allows us to maximise both a low and a high winds of magic roll, and (IMO) the best arcane item in the game. Against them we are not at out best, but fighting them in combat certainly isn't the only option.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:56 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:00 pm
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Im playing mostly against HE and DE elites are IMHO the worst idea... IMHO the best way to go is shooting + chariots.
Chariots because they are quite cheap, have decent T and As and the impact hits are wounding on 2+ mostly without armor saves (assuming you are able to make the charge).
Shooting, well yeah, our RBT are the same thing as their bolt thrower but our RXBs are much much better beacuse we have more shots over the same frontage + -1As.


Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:38 pm
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