SiegeCommander wrote:Is it even worth paying for these guys instead of spearmen? Since none of our units generate enough attacks to negate stepping up usually why pay around double for the same durability with slightly increased stats? What are your guys thoughts on our elite special choices compared to our core in 8th?
I'd like in the present thread to explore some uses for medium units of elites, in the range 10 to 15 (or 7-10 COK), with possibly some command or even full command.
These units are no more expandable, although loosing one is far from the end of the world (let alone the game).
Small elite units are examined in Uses for MSE, while the largest ones can be discussed in FLE (FEW LARGE Elites).
I'll start by quoting some interesting replies from the original thread and from Uses for MSE.
Calisson wrote:If an elite unit manages to get a flank attack, they will stay on the winning side (unless they get flank attacked themselves).
Elite need to avoid frontal collisions with mass units, because no matter how many they kill, there will be some painful retaliation.
However, if elites manage to get a flank charge on the same mass unit, the retaliation is much less and they will achieve a much faster destruction of the opposing mass unit.
Key is maneuvre.
Wirewolf wrote:Our elite units now will best serve to soften up units and assassinate characters/champs so that our spears and pirates can march in and overpower our enemies. In my lists 12 strong WE are making a big come back and are great at what they do.
Mr. Anderson wrote:"Our elite units now will best serve to soften up units and assassinate characters/champs so that our spears and pirates can march in and overpower our enemies."
You will forgive me for going when I read this... That is the worst possible way to use elites (short of leaving them in front of musketeers for a few turns...). Thats just my opinion, of course, but using elites this way is a waste. And can you imagine a general on a campaing throwing his elites in the meat grinder so the speargrunts can finish the enemy off?
Mr. Anderson wrote:Elites are there to prevent unecessary losses from spearmen, for sure, but not by getting themselves killed. It works a lot better if you bind your opponent in font, then charge the flanks with witch elves or black guard to get you those kills that'll tip the combat, break ranks and rout the enemy rather quickly.
In order to be able to do this, you need to break your opponent's line first (softening up the center, then using shock troops like cold one knights to charge the weakened unit). This requires you to plan your shooting out properly, of course. Once you break through, you have split your opponent's army in two, and your knights will be at the back of the army, hunting war machines, or preferably stopping reinforcements moving towards the isolated flank facing your majority of units. Once there is a gap in the lines, you can flank charge (because now you have the room to do so) with your elites and quickly finish off combats that would drag on endlessly otherwise and likely see both sides ground to dust.
If you are in a position where a flank is isolated, small elite units really come in their own. Two units of 10 witch elves in the flanks do much more damage than one 20-strong unit in front. Black riders in the rear will add some very welcome combat resolution bonuses as well. This will see hordes finished off rather quickly, seeing as each witch elf unit puts out around 30 attacks (deadly against low toughness hordes) and there is bound to be someone breaking their ranks. This will allow you to pick units off amost at will, while your spearmen, war machines and skirmishers hold off the other flank until you're finished with the flank you're concentrating on.
This requires very well thought-out maneuvring and deployment, but belive me when it works, it'll see your opponent ground to dust enormously quickly.
However, with the tendency towards larger but fewer units, well-coordinated small(ish) elite units may well be a great way of wreaking havoc - having more units and more room (and higher movement, quite often) will mean that your opponent can't possibly avoid rear charges and flank charges. And horde or not, even 100 goblins will be in a lot of trouble when they have units all around them. Taking 30+ kills a turn won't go unnoticed for long. They'll do one turn (i.e. two combat phases) and then they're toast.
L1qw1d wrote:I think the point of Elites are just over tarpit status unless you know how to throw them at things. You throw 40 Spears to slow someone down until 5-20 BG can GET there and chainsaw thru them.
Infantry got a big boost. Admittedly, it DOES dissuade some from initially taking Elites. But each one is there for specific purposes. Skirmishers may have altered, but kept in perspective are still great delivery units and COK are still shocktroopers. The Stubborn, ItP, and Always rerolling to hit or (slightly) higher S KB's DO add up.
Now your turn to state how best to use one or several medium elites?Tethlis wrote:There's a strong movement that seems to believe that taking casualties is somehow terrible, or wrong, or means we instantly lose and forfeit the game.
It's OKAY if Black Guard take casualties. Same with Executioners. Same with Witch Elves. The important thing is that your opponent takes even more casualties than you do, breaks, and you win the combat. Skaven Clanrats, on average, kill 2 to 3 BG a turn, compared to the 10+ Clanrats that unbuffed, unsupported Black Guard kill in return. Not bad.
"But what if I'm fighting something nastier than Clanrats? BG are only T3 with a 5+ armor save!"
True, so it's up to you as the general to dictate the matchups for your units, what you fight in melee and what you shoot at, and use your skill as a player to make sure our elites fight against opponents they can gain VP from, while ignoring the threats that are simply overwhelming for them.