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Death Magic Skaven and FUN!!!! 
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Noble
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So if some one is playing skaven and they have a screaming bell, furnace or catapult then I have good news for you. The lore of death will instant kill any of these "special mounts". Now do go getting all literal it wont just up and kill it but it will mess it up. Here is the break down.
Spirit leech targets any model and uses its unmodified leader ship, thanks to the rat FAQ those 3 "mounts" all have leader ship 0. So if your leader is 8 + d6 = 11 to 12 wounds on average. The plague devices just die (having no ward at all. The bell must pass a ton of ward saves, yes yes it has a 3+ ward (MR1 and 4+ ward), but still how many saves do you think it can take before it pops? Not to mention you can cast spirit leech twice if you have 2 death mages.

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Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:30 pm
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I like this, thanks !

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:10 am
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Noble
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You'll still at least be dealing with the LD7 of the Skaven general, due to the Inspiring Presence affecting the mount since it's within the 12" radius.
I'll leave the debate regarding Strength in Numbers for those who have the relevant books.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:04 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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I'm not sure where it says you can target the furnace separately of the plague priest. Not only that, but this appears to be a blatant abuse of the warhammer rules if this is true. Have fun making friends during the game, when you play like this.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:16 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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BRB faq confirms this. (last question)

Q: Can spells that pick out individual models, even if they are in a
unit, choose what is hit when targeting a model with multiple
locations? For example The Fate of Bjuna is cast at an Orc Warboss
on a Wyvern, the caster can choose to target the Warboss or the
Wyvern and it will be resolved against the Toughness of the target.
(Reference)
A: Yes

It's no more of an abuse of the rules than a skaven player Crack's calling a Hydra which has to use it's own initiative if it wants to stay on the board.
Last game vs the mice I had 2 hydras, one failed a charge which left him in single file with the other wrt to the seer. Both instagibbed on one spell.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:09 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)
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You can't cast the same spell twice in a turn, but the spell text said that you have to use the unmodified LD so 7+D6 for general and no inspiring presence.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:22 pm
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Cold One Knight
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slightly nit-picky but they would still get the roll, as in, those mounts would be LD0 +D6 vs your LD +D6, not LD0 against LD yours +D6

so 2-3 wounds per sucessful casting against the bell (3+ward) and 8 against the other

and to VVolf, while yes a wizard could not cast the same spell twice, you could cast as many spirit leeches as you have wizards with the lore of death, as it's the signiture and therfore any wizard using the lore can take it.

so you could multi-cast it. not that taking several death wizards would be a particularly good use of points, sure you'll kill the bell/whatever, but you've dropped a fair amount of points into people who will have limited use outside of killing it/attacking characters.

that is, assuming several level 2/1's, due to lack of spell variation if taking spirit leech.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:50 pm
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Rending Star
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I will have to look it up, but I am reasonably sure, that you cannot use the General's Inspiring Presence to defend against Spirit Leech.

EDIT: Ok, it's not crystal clear, but as I understand it, "their unmodified Leadership value" would be their own.

Bye
Thanee


Last edited by Thanee on Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:04 pm
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Beastmaster

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Thanee wrote:
I will have to look it up, but I am reasonably sure, that you cannot use the General's Inspiring Presence to defend against Spirit Leech.

Bye
Thanee


This. "both caster and target roll a d6 then add their respective unmodified ld values"

Although inspiring presence implies you can use the Ld for anything, the word unmodified makes me think this spell doesn't care. I certainly haven't heard of any inanimate objects being inspired before.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:38 pm
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fastcarfreak wrote:
I'm not sure where it says you can target the furnace separately of the plague priest. Not only that, but this appears to be a blatant abuse of the warhammer rules if this is true. Have fun making friends during the game, when you play like this.

Same can be said of casing an initiative testing spell on the COB no?


Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:44 pm
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Except CoB is a single model with multiple profiles.

Screaming Bells and a Grey Seer are two separate models for targetting purposes.

Just like a Dragon and Rider, or Chariot and Hero riding it.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:22 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Dalamar wrote:
Except CoB is a single model with multiple profiles.


... That automatically fails Characteristic tests since it is a war machine.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:04 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
Except CoB is a single model with multiple profiles.


... That automatically fails Characteristic tests since it is a war machine.

And this is my point.


Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:07 pm
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xFallenx wrote:
Dyvim Tvar wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
Except CoB is a single model with multiple profiles.


... That automatically fails Characteristic tests since it is a war machine.

And this is my point.


Correction this is MY point. Furthermore no it is not rules abuse, its called reading the rules and erratas and understanding what options I have as a player. It would be abusive if I did this and gloated or used it in such a way to suggest superiority. IE just being a bad sport.

The entire its not abuse bit was not aimed at you Fallen that was for fastcarfreak.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:35 pm
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I understand & don't take offence.

I am ok with the interpretation of hitting the COB with the initiative test & along those lines am in agreement with using Spirit Leech as you have outlined.

Both may seem harsh as far as the fact that something worth a couple hundred points can possibly be flushed with a few power dice, but isn't that what dispel scrolls and dispel dice are for?
We pick and choose our engagements/units/models to win/sacrifice/protect as any given game plays out. Not all of our units are going to survive, so mitigating becomes the balance within any given game.

That's just my 2c's.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:59 pm
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Units have a strength and a weakness. A basic repeater crossbowmen is very hard to kill with Crack's call, but can be easily dropped with a Strength 3 arrow.

A Cauldron cannot be killed by a single Strength 3 arrow, but is very vulnerable to Crack's Call.

It's the combination of unit weaknesses and unit vulnerabilities that make this game interesting. When a unit has no weakness, it becomes too powerful.

I predict a lot fewer Bells/Furnaces in 8th edition. They're vulnerable to many different types of magic, and Unbreakable for their unit isn't as powerful as it used to be as a result of Steadfast.

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Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:43 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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martian wrote:
BRB faq confirms this. (last question)

It's no more of an abuse of the rules than a skaven player Crack's calling a Hydra which has to use it's own initiative if it wants to stay on the board.
Last game vs the mice I had 2 hydras, one failed a charge which left him in single file with the other wrt to the seer. Both instagibbed on one spell.


I don't see how you can really compare the 2 situations. 1, your casting a spell that steals a models spirit by making it pass a test of its will (LD), but because it is an inanimate object with no leadership value, it auto fails the test... It should auto pass any leadership test. Its a mechanical devise.... compared to your argument that cracks call, a spell that tests somethings ability to get out of the way of a crack in the earth splitting from below and thus testing its initiative, which actually makes sense... explain to me how testing on the beastmaster's initiative would make any logical sense? Are the relatively quick beastmasters gonna push the huge beast out of the way, so it doesn't fall to its death?

As a dark elves player who uses death magic exclusively on my level 4 sorceress every game, I can assure you, my opinion on this matter is quite unbiased.


xFallenx wrote:
Same can be said of casing an initiative testing spell on the COB no?
as said in previous post, it makes sense for an object that cant move on its own to auto fail a test that requires it to get out of the way of something happening to it.

Mod's edit:
Successive posts merged.
Calisson.


Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:32 am
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Trainee Warrior

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fastcarfreak wrote:
martian wrote:
BRB faq confirms this. (last question)

It's no more of an abuse of the rules than a skaven player Crack's calling a Hydra which has to use it's own initiative if it wants to stay on the board.
Last game vs the mice I had 2 hydras, one failed a charge which left him in single file with the other wrt to the seer. Both instagibbed on one spell.


I don't see how you can really compare the 2 situations. 1, your casting a spell that steals a models spirit by making it pass a test of its will (LD), but because it is an inanimate object with no leadership value, it auto fails the test... It should auto pass any leadership test. Its a mechanical devise.... compared to your argument that cracks call, a spell that tests somethings ability to get out of the way of a crack in the earth splitting from below and thus testing its initiative, which actually makes sense... explain to me how testing on the beastmaster's initiative would make any logical sense? Are the relatively quick beastmasters gonna push the huge beast out of the way, so it doesn't fall to its death?

As a dark elves player who uses death magic exclusively on my level 4 sorceress every game, I can assure you, my opinion on this matter is quite unbiased.


From a strictly games-mechanics view. Both instances rely on a characteristic test on a unit that incorporates models with differing statistics.
Both instances outline a case where a lot is given up as a result of little effort.

They might not be exactly analogous due primarily to troop type, but in the spirit of turnabout is fair play they are similar circumstances.

In terms of fluff.. if a beastmaster is not the master of his beast then none of them will last very long.


But at the end of the day. You can read the rulebook, or not.. If it's ok with your opponent that's all that matters.


Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:35 pm
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fastcarfreak wrote:
explain to me how testing on the beastmaster's initiative would make any logical sense? Are the relatively quick beastmasters gonna push the huge beast out of the way, so it doesn't fall to its death?


The Beastmasters carry some salted high elf limbs with them for such a case. Hydras LOVE salted high elf limbs. You won't believe how fast they can become on the prospect of some salted high elf limbs. :P

Bye
Thanee


Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:30 pm
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Dragon Lord
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This isn't 40k, even the most mechanical machines, have to have some crew, nothing is automated.

If you need to justify it, say that spirit leech targets the rat ogre behind screaming bell or the plague monks behind plague furnace.

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Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:20 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
This isn't 40k, even the most mechanical machines, have to have some crew, nothing is automated.

If you need to justify it, say that spirit leech targets the rat ogre behind screaming bell or the plague monks behind plague furnace.


That makes no sense, those units (rat ogres and plague monks) are no more part of the bell/furnace model than the character riding it is. If the spell hits them then it hits the character, and thus uses his leadership.

Seems to me that the bell and furnace are like war machines, meaning they use the leadership of their crew for leadership tests. But their crew's leadership is zero as well, indicating that they are probably supposed to use the leadership of the character riding them.

I don't know, seems like an odd situation. The Lore of Death sniper type spells are clearly intended for characters not machines or even rank and file troops so I don't know why they don't just specify character only.


Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:22 pm
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1. Spells from the Lore of Death, with the exception of Purple Sun, are NOT characteristic tests.
2. Cauldrons of Blood have a 2+ Ward Save versus direct damage spells and plenty of wounds to go around. I highly encourage all my opponents to target my Cauldron of Blood with Spirit Leech and not my wizards.
3. Unmodified Leadership has been defined in the FAQ.
4. Casting Spirit Leech on Furnaces, Bells, Stegadons, Sphynxes, and various other low-leadership stuff is nothing new.

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Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:06 am
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Hi there,



I can't see why is this discussion taking so long. First of all, the FaQs clearly state that models with L "-" have L0 and automatically fail any Leadership test. This should clarifiy that models with L- are not to be considered "inmune" or not subjected to Leadership issues but the very opposite: they are specially vulnerable to L based sources of damage. For those who say that it goes against the spirit of the game, etc.

Next to it, there's another FaQ stating that unmodified L means exactly the L value that comes in the profile of that model with no modification of any type, not even Inspiring presence.

And in between both FaQs there's another FaQ that states that when a model (single model that is) with several profiles has to take such tests, it will use the better value avaliable, contrary to when the test affects a whole unit, in which case each model will use it's own.

So, for example, if you cast Spirit Leech on a Plague Furnace, which is a model with several profiles (easy to confirm, just read the Skaven book), it would use the best L value available. That is, 3 from the monk crew.



Also, as phierly says, blasting Furnaces away with Spirit Leech is nothing new. Dunno why this comes as a surprise xD.


Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:29 am
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BRB Faq says:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.

Despite the original question was about leadership test I think this definition is for all cases when we need 'unmodified leadership'. So for Bell/Furnance we will use Ld of a Seer/Plague Priest or other highest in the unit it is in.


Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:44 am
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Dragon Lord
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That is correct. The latest FAQ clarifies that very nicely.
That doesn't help that Skaven unmodified leadership sucks (at best it's 7 on Warlord)

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Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:12 pm
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