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Nasty Doom and Darkness! trick 
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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It was recently pointed out to me that the "inspiring presence" rule for army generals is mandatory, and there is no exception if the general's leadership is lower than the units around him. If the units are within the requisite range, they must use the general's leadership. This means that you can throw Doom and Darkness! on the unit containing the enemy general and effectively lower the leadership of a large portion of the army.

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:09 pm
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Rending Star
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Sorry, but that's a little too much RAW. ;)

It should really be obvious, that this is not the case.

Bye
Thanee


Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:56 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Why? What is so 'obvious' about the way you see it? Looking at it from a fluff perspective, it's perfectly sensible that if a general were dispirited, it would have an effect on the morale of his troops.

And from a rules perspective, There is no ambiguity at all. Prior editions of the game had language allowing troops to use their own leadership if it was higher than the general's leadership, but that language is now lacking. It's worth noting that this can come into play outside the context of Doom and Darness! For example, if you had a Dark Elf army with only a Sorceress for the general, you might want to keep your higher-leadership Knights and Black Guard more than 12" away from her.

In the end, if you say this is not the case, you need to point to something in the rules to support your position. Just because something feels wrong to you, doesn't mean it's not perfectly right.

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:41 pm
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Cool, except the word 'MUST' isn't part of the sentence for using a general's leadership when within 12" of him/her. So it's not 100% clear, if you want to read the RAW that strict.

To de-warp the intention, pg10 it says you use the highest characteristic of the unit or model when it has more than one value.

Little wording mistakes like these happen Dyvim, the whole steadfast rule had to be remodified (or reworded) for that matter.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

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Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:09 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Meteor --

I appreciate your response, and thanks for actually discussing the language in the rules. You are correct that a unit uses the highest characteristic in the unit when the unit has more than one value. However, the Inspiring Presence rule is something separate. And although that rule doesn't use the word "must," it doesn't need to. Rather, it's the absence of the word "may" that was found in prior editions of the rule. The rule is no longer permissive.

And before anyone starts to try to argue about "intent," we have no idea what the intent of the designers was. It is plausible that the designers wanted units to be able to use the highest available leadership at all times. It is just as plausible that the designers intended armies to suffer if they took a low-leadership generals like a Sorceress. But the rules as written require the general's leadership to be used, whether it is higher or lower.

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:25 pm
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Why is it separate? Inspiring Presence doesn't specifically state it's an exception to the basic rule.

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Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:35 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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It's separate for a very simple reason -- the rule you cite doesn't cover the situation. Page 10 says that when a unit includes models with different leadership values, you use the highest. This does not tell you what to do when the general is outside of the unit. It only covers situations when the varying leadership values are in a single unit.

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:49 pm
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Good find, Dyvim Tvar!

RAW, I fully concur with you.
p.107 "all friendly units within 12/18" use the general Ld instead of their own."
P.10 deals with a unit which includes models with different Ld, so it is not the case.

Fluffwise, it can be explained.

Tactically, I love it! :D

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:59 pm
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RAW it seems sound. I notice that the language is the same for BSB rerolls. With no choice in the matter, that means that undead that fail their crumble tests for a dead general/hirophant by one 1 or 2 still must reroll, and possibly fail by a lot more.

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:29 pm
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GW just isnt very smart...


anyone knows if a magic template allows "Look out Sir!" ?


thats another case thats not so clear ...


Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:12 am
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So an undead corpse cart will be Ld10 when within the general's inspiring presence? And when mindrazor is cast upon the said corpse cart, it's going to have 2D6 S10 attacks plus a further D6 S10 stomps? :O

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:50 am
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Stomps are always at base strength...


Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:56 am
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stomps just says use the model's strength, doesn't mention base strength, mindrazor uses Ld value as strength.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:10 am
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Malekith's Best Friend

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Mind Razor specifies the unit's Ld value, where as Inspiring Presence only allows you to use the General's Ld for Ld tests.

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When old hags do knock at your door, you must hide,
Your death is the gift sought by Khaine's pretty brides.


Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:49 pm
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Hi there,

@Maldor:

Inspiring Presence states that units use their general's L atribute.

Mind Razor states that unit uses its L atribute instead of S atribute.

So i guess units affected by Mindrazor do actually use their general's L instead of their S to wound.

What is left to be discussed is wether AS are also modified by L instead of S.

Back to the topic, i agree with Dyvim Tvar that the lack of the word "may" rather than the lack of the word "must" is what forces troops to use their General's L. Fluffwise, it makes sense too so it is ok for me.


Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:10 am
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Mindrazor is the unit's Ld...


Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:38 am
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Hey all!

This is an interesting discussion.

I can see both sides of the argument here and whilst it has been explained quite clearly by Dyvim and Meteor, I'd have to say that I personally wouldn't try that particualr tactic.

It's a nice find I have to admit but IMO I think it's a little um, not dodgy but perhaps not really in the spirit of the game.

Just my thoughts....

Cheers!

H :twisted:

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Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:12 pm
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Dark Rider

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After re-reading the Inspiring Presence rule from the BRB, I'll have to agree with PjEOs on the general Lds issue.

It says that the units use the general Ld instead of theirs for all purposes... which also includes Mindrazor.

PjEOs wrote:
What is left to be discussed is wether AS are also modified by L instead of S.


Not much to discuss here, really... I'll even quote myself :P

c_freman wrote:
In fact, the latest faq solved that issue (page 3):

Quote:
Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s
Mindrazor
Change “[...]when rolling To Wound with[...]” to
“[...]for[...]”




So it essentially reads now:

Quote:
Modes in the target unit use their Leadership instead of their Strength for all attacks whilst the spell remains in play.




Making if clear that it affects armour saves.


Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:17 pm
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RAW its sound, but I wouldn't bring it to a game, that sort of stuff makes your friends dislike playing you in a friendly environment and will sports hit you in tournament environments.

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Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:49 pm
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Definately gonna try it, to me it makes perfect sense both rule and fluff-wise, so I'm not considering this a "cheap tactic" or exploit. If someone would use it against me I wouldn't be upset, it's part of the game.


Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:14 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Yep -- it's part of the game. Someone might be upset the first time you make use of this mechanic, but will quickly get over it and use it against you in return ...

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Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:32 pm
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If you were to use it ,I would get some agreement off your opponent before hand ,just in case he doesn't share the same view, as you could come across as being a rules lawyer.

I appreciate you will lose the surprise element but it may save you from being hit over the head with the rules book without the 4+ Ward Save! :roll:


Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:32 pm
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I agree, the rules for Inspiring Presence are quite clear on this.

For anyone complaining about Mindrazor, you should show them how Doom & Darkness have 'the same/opposite' effect and vise versa.

Yes, It can be 'exploited', and it might seem 'cheesy' at first (it did, when I first recognized this), but its a part of how characters have become more important for their leadership than their combat prowess in 8th. So from my POV it actually makes a lot of sense :)


Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:03 am
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so you have to use the generals Ld even if its lower than your own?

how about a giant close to a goblin general. he gets his Ld lowered? (even without any spalls cast at any one of them) it sounds very suspicious...

clearly if the general gets hit by DnD he can no longer lend his original Ld to the units around him, but my guess is that he wouldnt lower it either, simply because of the giant/goblin case.

or if we decided to use a sorceress as general. would she gimp our knights Ld?

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:22 pm
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Apparently so, which is a very strange prospect even fluffwise, but if that's the rules for a failed wording then that's the rules I guess.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:33 pm
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