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Dealing with quantities without the Hydra. 
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Corsair
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I've played serveral 8:th edition battles now and I have been starting to realize that it's pretty tough to deal with large quantities of enemy units. Especially the WoC infantry.
Either cheap and hard-hitting or expensive while being pure and super effective meatgrinders, they are nothing but pain to fight head-on!

At the beginning of 8:th, many people said that the Hydra was nerfed, and it's crystal clear now:

- It wasn't.


It's 175 pts that can take on any but the toughest enemy infantry, cavalry or monster head-on and Easily come out on top.

I've played a few games without the Hydra and have just realized how awesome it actually is - and how dependant we (I?) are of it. Beacuse when you don't have it, you REALLY feel the need for it!

So, what alternative ways to you suggest to deal with massed, hitty infantry?
Such as Khorne marauders with great weapons or the likes.

Tactics?
Characters builds?
Spells synergie with... something?

How do you resolve you're situations when you're just out of cheap "I win-buttons" (Hydras)?

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:08 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I love the I love my hydras. They are great for killing lots of cheap infantry--pair them with a cheap unit of ranked spears to deal with Steadfast. But hydras can get owned by infantry with flaming attacks (I see Banner of Eternal Flame a LOT these days) and/or high strength.

I find that magic is probably the best way to deal with big enemy units. Shadow Lore is a great all-purpose lore for this. Use it's hex spells to tip combats in your favor, of Occam's Mindrazor to take on tough foes. Units with lots of attacks-- witch elves, corsairs, black guard, and even spearmen --can really take advantage.

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Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:40 pm
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Yep, spells from Shadow will be the best way to deal with them, coupled with word of pain from dark magic and you won't really care anymore when khorne marauders are hitting you in horde formation etc.

I personally don't use a Hydra anymore, I swap it for another medium-small block of troops to dish out S3 papercuts. I successfully dealt with a block of forty bloodletters the other day without using any magic, just pure synergy charges from twelve WEs front on, fifteen frenzied corsairs on the flank (with +1 attack boost) and some other unit I can't remember now. Killed off half of them in the first round, too bad they don't break from combat :(

Bloodletters are probably small in comparison to frenzy warriors and the likes, and I may had struggled more against T4, but the idea is still the same. I would had forgone killing blow instead to bypass that armour and toughness. Similarly, a horde of daemonettes were dealt with in the same way as with the bloodletters in that game. To give an idea of how powerful shadow magic is when unleashed with good results, I literally turned their entire stat line to 1's from miasma, withering and enfeebling foe. Two blocks of spearmen took them out with no wounds suffered. So you don't necessarily need a Hydra to tackle hordes or massive units of infantry ;)

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Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:44 am
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Use the signature spell in Shadow, drop opponents' Initiative, and then blast away with pendulum and pit of shades.


Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:03 am
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Rending Star
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Your Hydras must be pretty amazing to win against GW Khorne Marauders. :D

I would rather deal with them with spells (Shadow Magic) and shooting.

I could see Witch Elves being fairly effective against them, too.

Bye
Thanee


Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:46 am
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Thanee wrote:
Your Hydras must be pretty amazing to win against GW Khorne Marauders. :D

I would rather deal with them with spells (Shadow Magic) and shooting.

I could see Witch Elves being fairly effective against them, too.

Bye
Thanee



50 MoK marauders with GW attacking a hydra: Max of 16 attacks needing 4s to hit and 4s to wound, striking after the hydra has it's fun.

Hydra to marauders - 6 attacks from handlers, 4 hits, 2 wounds
7 attacks from hydra, 5 hits, 5 wounds
7 breath weapon hits, 6 wounds
D6 thunderstomp (we'll say 3) 3 wounds
16 wounds

Marauders - 16 attacks (hydra has small frontage) 8 hits, 4 wounds 2 after saves


I know, marauders will be steadfast, but I thinka hydra can still hold its own until help arrives.


Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:42 am
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You're even better off if you manage to flank and flame them first instead of using the breath weapon in combat...

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Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:15 pm
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very true, somewhere around 30+ hits needing 2s to wound? yes please. :)


Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:56 pm
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I'm not sure that using LoS is really the best way to deal with infantry, just with the sheer points cost and unreliability of buff spells.

If I was facing that many flail-armed marauders I would probably want to have packed a lot of shooting to thin up their ranks a little.

If shooting isn't really your style, you could threaten them with a rear-charge of DR instead. Hordes really are a problem, and as a DE play I tend not to pack them, but the best answer to horde, sadly, is probably another horde (DE spearmen or big units of corsairs would probably slaughter marauders en-masse)

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Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:01 pm
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If he fields that many marauders therefor he is taking a lot of space on the board and thus mean he really can't hide that unit well or move it around. I'd say deploy on a farther side of his units and thin it with repeater crossbow shots and magic then simply wipe them of with spearmen blocks. I don't see the use of Marauders with flails in this edition as much as I would rather field them with greatweapons which in my opinion would hurt more. They really don't have great saves and at their point cost I would not commit my Hydra against it unless I really have to. :roll:

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Last edited by Ichiyo1821 on Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:31 am, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:02 am
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I played a game yesterday vs Warriors of Chaos and my opponent had a big block of scary Warriors of Nurgle with an Exalted Hero in it. Lvl 4 Sorceress w/ Lore of Metal removed 10 or so with Searing Doom, then cast Plague of Rust on them, then next turn cast Transmutation of Lead on them - so their 3+ save was now a 5+.
Exalted Hero had I10 because of a magic item, so 5 attacks meant 5 dead Black Guard. 11 BG hit back - with a +1 attack from the Cauldron on my turn - reducing their armor save to 6+, and killed all but 2 of the Warriors and sent them running.
So 20+ warriors reduced to two because of three spells, the Cauldron, and 14 Black Guard. Granted, that was nearly 850 points of models.

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Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:23 am
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Big horde units is best taken care of with big block of spears in combocharge with charriot ( or pref. hydra, but if you insist not to use it then charriot ). There will be the need to thin it out a bit on beforehand with magic/shooting if it is very big. There is the issue that you don`t get points for the unit unless you kill every model. Therefore sometimes it can be a viable strategy to just avoid it and go for other points. Avoiding can be tricky, but with enough sacrifice models like harpies its doable. I rarely leave hompe without at least 2x6 harpies. Very versatile units even without marchblock effect. Need to place them accurately and stand when charged.

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Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:45 pm
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I have a hard time following the logic presented in this thread.

"Oh, just use some magic."

"Thin them with crossbow fire, then fight them with spears."

"Don't worry, your Hydra will kill a ton of them until help arrives."

You know your opponent can dispel spells, right? You know that sometimes, you might not roll many power dice? Maybe your caster is already dead?

If you're firing your crossbows at marauders, what are you shooting at those marauder horsemen bearing down on you? Or that unit of Chosen and those War Altars?

Hydra huh? Assuming it survives the Hellcannon, flickering fire or gateway, I'm sure it will do nicely for itself.

Oh, don't forget that you're probably not just fighting one Marauder unit... You're probably fighting 3 or more. So perhaps the aforementioned methods will deal with one marauder horde nicely, but what happens when the other ones arrive, plus the Chosen, plus his character?

This is the same phenomenon that happens all too often; players think about one enemy unit, and how to stop it, without taking all the other factors on the table into account.

My solution? Reconcile yourself with the fact that you probably don't have a great solution to handling a marauder horde, depending on how big it is. If it's 50+ models, then it probably can't maneuver well, so that's good. However, if you're looking at multiple units of ~30 models, then it's crucial to make good use of terrain and hope those large formations will get in each others' way. There is always a good chance that one unit will be overextended, or will lose Steadfast due to walking through terrain. When this happens, you need to be ready to pounce quickly with your hard-hitting units. Even if they have Steadfast, they'll be vulnerable when in horde formation, and will struggle to maneuver. Use your spears to slow them down, reconcile yourself with the fact that you'll lose those spears, but focus on killing off characters and other units that yield meaningful Victory Points. Make no mistake, great weapon marauder hordes are dangerous and cheap; that's why they're so popular. However, you don't need to defeat them if there are easier ways to earn Victory Points; let those marauder hordes score some points off you, but be ready to score even more by focusing your efforts on models that are worth more than 6 Victory Points each. A single marauder horde isn't hard to deal with, but multiple marauder hordes + Chosen + Chaos Knights + magic + whatever can be very hard to deal with.

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Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:51 pm
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Concerning the original topic, there are many tools that can be used to accomplish the same things your Hydra does. Though, the Hydra is a great tool for dealing with all types of infantry, we have other stuff, as well. We have great horde killing which comes in the form of corsairs, witch elves, and we have great armour killers such as executioners, COK, chariots. We also have things that can do both such as magic(depending on the lore you pick) and BOM blackguard.

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You know your opponent can dispel spells, right? You know that sometimes, you might not roll many power dice? Maybe your caster is already dead?

If you're firing your crossbows at marauders, what are you shooting at those marauder horsemen bearing down on you? Or that unit of Chosen and those War Altars?

Hydra huh? Assuming it survives the Hellcannon, flickering fire or gateway, I'm sure it will do nicely for itself.

Oh, don't forget that you're probably not just fighting one Marauder unit... You're probably fighting 3 or more. So perhaps the aforementioned methods will deal with one marauder horde nicely, but what happens when the other ones arrive, plus the Chosen, plus his character?

This is the same phenomenon that happens all too often; players think about one enemy unit, and how to stop it, without taking all the other factors on the table into account.


You have a valid point. Any opponent worth his salt will do everything within his power to prevent those unit x vs. unit y matchups that have been conveniently described. However, I think that the advice that other players gave is still valid, and shouldn't be belittled too much. Yes, players shouldn't be basing their entire strategy on a successful magic phase or war hydras or mass shooting, but players also need to know how to use magic, hydras and shooting against WOC in the event that those things don't get negated. If two out of three of those things work the marauders will cease to be a problem, allowing you to concentrate on those altars, warriors and chosen. I guess what I'm trying to say is that getting stuck into the thinking that the unit x vs unit y matchups will never happen can be just as detrimental to getting stuck into the thinking that they will always happen.


Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:08 pm
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Exactly. You can't count on a successful magic phase, but you can't count on a hydra either. I've had several games where I've lost a hydra to first-turn artillery fire. There are counter strategies to everything in the game, and so having multiple options in your tool box is a good thing.

Also, with the Druchii Sorcery rule, if you really need to get a particular spell off, you can generally do it if you are willing to eat a miscast (not to mention Powerscroll as an option).

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:16 am
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Yes there are multiple ways of handling any warhammer situation like using terrain and not allowing that large unit to have enough space to wheel or to fit, get out of their charge arcs and all but these are all very situational. I think the people posting were just citing first all the easy possible ways of dealing with one marauder infantry. If I were to expound, suppose that your are playing a normal pitched battle against a Chaos infantry army which roughly would consists of :
Sorceror on disc etc etc
2 units of 30 Marauders with great weapons
2 units of 15 Warriors of Chaos with halberds
2 units of 5 Marauder Horsemen or Hounds
Hellcannon
+ whatnots.

Now suppose you run a balanced Druchii list with a little of everything. Deployment alone will win you half the battle with any army you're up against. Chaos tends to deploy centrally so some of the classic tricks of wargaming is exposing his weakness. You technically want to more often than not deploy your very fast units like Dark Riders, Harpies to see where he puts his units and therefore deploy accordingly. Alternatively if you can deploy either with yet another classic denied flank deployment with all your shooting elements up center to maximize your shooting arc and line of sight and your strong units on either flanks. Depending on how he reacts you can either attempt to split his forces by deploying your units on both ends of your deployment zone. If he goes for your fast units, simply shift your entire flank to the other side and delay him while you pick off his stray units. If he decides to ignore your lighter troops and go for your main units then simply move your fast elements behind his lines to rear and flank charge him or go after his Hellcannon and tie it up with a sacrificial unit to keep it from shooting a couple of turns. Again with deployment alone there are many ways to deal and not necessarily kill that unit and this is all without even considering terrain yet. Chaos suffer from not having any shooting to control the battlefield and being generally melee oriented. Knowing this plan accordingly on how to deal with his entire army rather than individual hack and slashing and you'll get the hang of it. In other words just play a bit more and you'll see opportunities present themselves and it is up to you to recognize them.

General tip against horde. They are either long or wide. If they go long, try this trick I've been using against Brets since. Angle your anvil unit diagonally towards the unit your are expecting a charge from on the side where he has no counter charging unit to flanking unit of his own and place your hammer unit directly opposite the said flanking unit. If he commits the charge and aligns to you, there is a possibility wherein the long formation of that horde unit will obscure his LOS or make it difficult if not impossible to double charge you. Not only are you rendering one unit of his useless but the aligning of chargers exposes his flank for a brutal countercharge. Best of all there is even a possibility of overrunning into the blocked unit. I know this may sound a bit reaching but I have seen and done it a couple of times to prove that it is not really that hard to pull off specially if you put terrain into account and prior planning on how to attack his army. The said tactic also applies when he fails a charge, by angling your unit there is also the possibility of you having more models on his flank and while he expects that you will countercharge his failed charge frontally, he might be surprised to find out that you will actually hit him on his flank AND be out of his other unit's countercharge. Many people overlook how the "closing the door" rule changes the game tactically and gives a certain advantage to fast armies. People have forgotten about movement with the supposed sudden nerf to fast cavalry and flyers/ march blocking to realize that even such a simple removal of the stupid slide to maximize rule has opened new areas of gameplay. Even the under-looked battle reform has not been given enough emphasis. Simply put there is a lot more into 8th edition that people are neglecting while concerning themselves with flashier things like Purple Sun this, Dwellers that etc etc. Try fielding a no magic list and you'll see and perhaps learn a lot more about the game and what tactics you can use.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:07 am
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hey, Ichiyo1821, you should write more often in the tactics forum! :D

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:14 am
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Nice post by Ichiyo1821. Good discussion of taking advantage of the movement phase, and not just just yelling about spamming Shadow/Death and looking for an easy win using unreliable means. He also makes good points about deployment, and the value of our Dark Riders and Harpies in an 8th edition environment. I think many players have become very focused on how fragile 8th edition Dark Riders and Harpies are to return attacks, but the ability to use them for deployment filler is still very useful.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:26 pm
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One thing to remember is that if the enemy charges a unit of dark riders or harpies and either slaughters them or breaks them without pursuing, that unit can immediately reform. Bottom line -- taking a charge with harpies or dark riders is not necessarily a reliable way to get the enemy put of position.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:06 pm
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Yes imo Dark riders can no longer be a reliable unit for misdirection and the likes. In 8th ed. eve the 7 point musician upgrade doesn't seem so attractive as before. I would even run them naked or crossbows without musicians this edition if I were to use them again. I have grown to love Harpies and Shades even more in this edition than the next. Harpies in a 3x2 formation literally fits anywhere and the threat of multiple shade units have given me so much options nowadays.

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:17 am
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I'm on the fence, actually I like my dark riders a lot more, they are super easy to get in position so on turn 2 you have a rear and front charge. Most opponents, that I play anyway, look at dark riders and see the old "bait and flee" so they just leave them alone after my vanguard move, then I squeeze behind their line and they are ready for a rear charge when my knights hit the front.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:55 am
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greenbay924 wrote:
50 MoK marauders with GW attacking a hydra: Max of 16 attacks needing 4s to hit and 4s to wound, striking after the hydra has it's fun.

Hydra to marauders - 6 attacks from handlers, 4 hits, 2 wounds
7 attacks from hydra, 5 hits, 5 wounds
7 breath weapon hits, 6 wounds
D6 thunderstomp (we'll say 3) 3 wounds
16 wounds

Marauders - 16 attacks (hydra has small frontage) 8 hits, 4 wounds 2 after saves


I know, marauders will be steadfast, but I thinka hydra can still hold its own until help arrives.


Yep, that is the first round... afterwards, things get dramatically worse without Breath and Hatred. ;)

sulla wrote:
You're even better off if you manage to flank and flame them first instead of using the breath weapon in combat...


Absolutely! The S5 Breath Weapon is so nasty against large (esp. T3) infantry blocks.

Bye
Thanee


Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:39 am
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Ichiyo1821 wrote:
Not only are you rendering one unit of his useless but the aligning of chargers exposes his flank for a brutal countercharge.


There is one thing that everyone really needs to keep in mind at this point, esp. when fighting a particularily deep (many ranks) infantry unit.

Steadfast is not negated by a flanking unit (even one that disrupts the unit)!

This means, if you do not deal enough damage to negate Steadfast, the unit will likely hold and likely be able to reform as well (2x Ld check, but with the usual General+BSB nearby such units, those are easy enough to pass).

Not saying that this doesn't work. But when you attempt it, you should be aware of the consequences. If your unit will only be able to survive IF they are in the flank (no supporting attacks means considerably less damage dealt, esp. with units like GW wielding Chaos Marauders), then you might be in trouble after the first round of combat.

Bye
Thanee


Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:47 am
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however, some nice manourvring can get those infantry blocks partially in forests and such, and those instantly break all options of steadfast.

you dont need to break staedfast with your own units if you can use the terrain to do it for you, good luring and directing the enemy units can make a world of difference with the current, much terrain set ups.

a forest in this version is a horde/ big infantry trap, nothing more, nothing less. for that reson only, i can see woodelves do well (treesinging is a default spell after all, and all their skirmishers become steadfast in forests, while the enemy loses it).

also, the reform is not available if you engage a unit on 2 sides, but well, the principles of MSU have been lost it seems.


Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:30 pm
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Asuming 50 mauraders fielded 10 wide i will charge them with :
30 wich elfs 10 wide with hag with hydra banner, +1 atack from COB, boosted by mindrazer. Lets see that should be close to 80 str 10 atacks with poisen and reroll from hatred. No need for hydra support hehe.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:47 am
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