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Help me against this WoC list 
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am
Posts: 150
Location: Bay Area
warriors x 40 w/nurgle 2 units
chosen x 50 w/ great weapons & mark that adds +1 ward save
2 war shrines
3 heros with killy gear on juggernaughts
1 lord with killy gear on juggernaught
1 caster lvl 4

3000 points basiclly uses 1 war unit on each flank both warshrines buffing chosen to the gills, hiding behind the chosen and lord + heros driving around pickin off little units/supporting his infantry.

strengths that i see so far
-points denial
-chosen are going to get 3 up ward and armor save with a str 7+ attacks
-horde
-stubborn
-ugly

Help ?

I can run any DE combos as he is cut throat and braggs this wins.

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Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:43 pm
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Rending Star
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I would probably use an (pretty much) unkillable, stubborn Dreadlord (1+ armour, PoK, Crown) to keep the Chosen busy all game, and destroy the rest of this army with lots of Magic (Shadow + Death would be a good combo, I think, or Shadow + Metal maybe) and big units of Spears with Cauldron backup (KB).

Bye
Thanee


Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:31 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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The guy only has 3 units of consequence and they are all slow infantry, so if you have fast cavalry you can bait and flee and never let him engage any meaningful unit of yours. In the meantime, load up on Death Magic and possibly Metal (for final transmutation). Snipe his characters and you can win on those VPs alone.

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Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 am
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Executioner
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Magic, magic magic magic! But first, you need to neutralise that Lv4 caster. Depending on what unit type it is, there's a few ways to go about it. If it's on foot, ie an infantry, then you'll simply need to KB it, an Assassin with +D3 attacks and reroll 1's to wound poison will do the trick. CoB will give him KB then he'll charge in and kill it. You'll get challenged but meh, kill that champion, then he must challenge with his sorc next, win win.

Or else take a Master on DP, make him the unkillable build with Dragonhelm and PoK, with full mundane armour and a great weapon. Throw him in and start killing that level 4 wizard of his. Breaking from combat is high, and it relies on a fair bit of you actually being able to kill things for CR to stay tieing up a unit. But the main job is to kill his level 4 first.

Why not a stubborn unkillable dreadlord? Because I'd suggest a lv4 caster and a lv3 caster. Lv4 takes Dark Magic and Lv3 takes Shadow with a Power Scroll. You could make that Lv3 a Lv4 too if you like, to increase your chance of getting Mindrazor. It's a Lv3/4 caster purely so you could increase your chances of getting those debuff/buff spells, and being able to take a power scroll. S7 Chosen? Don't care if he can't hit you on 5's (word of pain). Drop his S and T by D3, throw some Soul Steal onto them(-D3 T, wounds on 4 now?! OMG!), some Black Horrors especially when he's copped a -D3 S debuff. If you managed to miasma his I to 1 or 2, throw a big blast Pit of Shades onto that unit and pray it doesn't scatter too far, then BOOM! Lots of dead Chaos Warriors. The debuffs also helps your spearmen to survive much better too, mitigating CR losses and steadfast loss.

Take a CoB BSB, purpose? Give KB to your units or an extra attack when you're going to unleash Mindrazor. Then two blocks of forty Spearmen, 5x8, deny steadfast and to hold his two big units up for counter charges (preferably three blocks if you can fit the points, because I don't think they'll live for too long against a HORDE of warriors). Take Witches and frenzied corsairs. Mindrazor will be great for witches, KB will be better for Corsairs, but works on any unit of yours too really. Take Harpies to control his movement with redirecting charges. Then whatever you like after that, Hydras, Chariots, meh. Maybe a few RBTs to slug his lone characters? The Other Trickster's Shard is also handy against his 3+ ward save, forcing him to reroll any successful ones. Maybe take a block of ten executioners and go chop up a warshrine or two ;)

It also makes your list seem balanced, so he can't really whinge about you tailoring your list or it being really cheesy or anything.

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What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:01 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:25 am
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Location: Bay Area
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Great advise Meteor, I think I will start working on a list with the 2 lvl 4 castersto start with. I appreciate the effort you put into the post.

Thanks!

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Too Cold

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Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:17 am
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Slave (off the Altar)

Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:54 pm
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executioners, now use that chaos armour!


Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:57 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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You could use executioners and a cauldron, but you would need a REALLY big unit (40+) to take on a unit of 40 warriors.

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Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:36 pm
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Cold One Knight
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Location: England / Har Ganeth.
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magic, lore of metal will make short work of the juggers, golden hounds would be the best spell, but searing doom works just as well. a single casting would kill any of his characters

juggers,as they're monsterous beasts, they do not get look out sir from anything in his army, so turn them to ash with golden hound.

his big blocks, all have excellent stats, probably the best unit-affecting spell would be final transmutation, from the lore of metal, it's not based on stats, it's just 5+ to instant kill, no saves of any kind (6+ on characters/multiwounders) and then grants them stupidity.

the rest of the lore is useful too, but none would be as instrumental in that armies destruction as these.

otherwise, agree with everyone else pretty much.


Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:20 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Horde witches/ SSS corsairs + Mindrazer. That should deal with them well enough. Blessed with an extra attack from the COB if you like as well.

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Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:37 am
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Executioner
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Nasty list.
As alrdy been said above.

- Lore of Metal and or Dark Magic (Soul Stealer and Black Horror)
- Master on Pegasus to kill Shrines.
- 2 x 20 Black Guard with AP banner

BG>ChaosWarr
Just keep the Chosen buzzy with your unkillable Dreadlord


Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:36 pm
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Cold One Knight

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:00 pm
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I did some math (because one druchii player was crying about how much DE sux against WoCH)
3 WoCH builds
1) Nurgle Warriors with hand weapon and shield and frenzy banner 6 wide
2) Tzeentch Warrios with hand weapon and shield 6 wide
3) Khorne Warrios with Halberds

20 BG: FCG Only 7 wide
1) BG 3,4 wounds, WoCH 9,25
2) BG 2,6, WoCH 5,3
3) first round: BG 5,5, WoCH 10,4
second round: BG 4,5, WoCH 10,4 :( (BG less wound because of 3-4 less support attacks)

with AP banner BG cca +1wound against 1) for 2) and 3) i did not the math

30+ Executioners, FCG, 7 Wide (30+ because we need more cause ASL)
1) first turn: Ex 6,8 , WoCH 9,25
second turn: Ex 4,5, WoCH 9,25
2) first turn: Ex 5,4 , WoCH 5,3
second turn: Ex 3,5, WoCH 5,3
3) first turn: Ex 9,3 , WoCH 10,4
second turn: Ex 6,25, WoCH 10,4


Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:06 pm
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Beastmaster
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what you need is 2 lv2 sorcs, both with shadow. 1 sorc must have a power scroll. Roll for spells as follows:
1. Non-power scroll sorc. If she gets occams drop it to the signature spell, if you roll a double take any spell other than occams
2. Power scroll sorc. If she does roll occams, great otherwise you should be able to get it because you are'nt allowed the same spell on different casters unless one of them get to choose.
So with a good chance of occams (IIRC it's about 85%) we borrow a term from Warmachine, Feat Turn :twisted:
A large unit of WE, 30+, charges either unit. A blessing from the cauldron is useful, either 5+ ward or +1A (I prefer the ward vs WoC).
The power scroll sorc uses her scroll while casting occams on the WE using 5 dice, 6 if you really want to gaurantee occams.
That should give you two rounds of complete killiness :) :twisted:

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Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:36 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
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Diablo wrote:
(because one druchii player was crying about how much DE sux against WoCH)


piff unimaginable!

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:32 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:06 am
Posts: 153
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Lore of Metal for a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2 plus dreadlord with Crown and Pok and 1+ AS combo. Without horsemen, run them mobile but protected with dsrk rider screens (4+ look out sir) maybe with protection in magic resistance and with ward saves. The sixth spell in Lore of Metal allows no saves at all and will kill 1/3 of his large unit and have a 1/6th chance of killing any characters in the unit. One idea is to sse the PoD spells wiith one last Pd for each caster to attempt one last spell. He will be forced to let something through early or have no dice at the end when he needs them. He has no shooting, so dark riders with sorc with MR can work.

The heroes on the Juggs get no look out sirs. They are also vulnerable to two Lore of Metal spells but likely have some ward saves (which they likely can't max out). Also, this is one time when RBTs will be effective in killing the heroes on Juggs and cutting through the armour saves and earning thier points on the warriors.

He will be limited as to the number of ward saves an the amount of ward saves (inclusive of MR) unless and until he gets the top roll on the warshrines for his chosen unit.

The chosen unit will be slow and difficult to manage at that size. DE units are a lot faster and should just avoid it and isolate pick on one of the warrior blocks and go to kill the heroes with shooting and magic.

A single lvl 4 is vulnerable and can be stopped.


Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:03 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
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Go for the characters and warshrines and ignore big blocks, divert them as long as possible. Hit char with magic and asassin and suicide units etc.

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Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:36 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Quick number crunching in my head says that's waaaay more than a 3000 point army. That Chosen unit alone is 2000 points. A Lord on a Juggernaut is upwards of 450 points. And if memory searves me, each one of those Chaos Warrior units are 600ish points. Something is very wrong with your scenario.


Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:06 pm
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Cold One Knight
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the chosen unit is roughly 1000 points phierlihy.

otherwise, this list, with no command, and no upgrades other than MoK and juggers for the melee characters and the lvl 4 upgrade comes in at 3610 points.

thats 3610 with only hand weapons on the nurgle guys, and no "killy gear" or equipment of any kind (other than stated) on the characters.

no character or special limits were broken though.


Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:32 pm
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
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I would assume that he means 40 warriors of nurgle, divided in 2 units instead of 2 units of 40 nurgle warriors = roughly a bit over 600 pts.

since even diabolicaly mutated WoC players wont try to cheat up to 600 pts in a list (i assume again).

thise suddenly makes those units non horde, and a lot more feasible to tackle, allthou still definetly not easy.

well, ignore the chosen, those are by all accounts unkillable at 50 wounds with a massive AS and Wardsave, unless ye manage to pull off a 3 Ini lowering pulple sun on them (but that is assuming a lot of lucky dicerolls, dont make a list based on that.

metal is the lore of choice here, with maybye a nice role for fire (firecage those chosen, flamestorm has a very good chance of scattering still on it, and burning head will cut a swatch and force panic tests (sure, rerolls they have, but only the lord has Ld 9).


Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:05 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Thanks Darktan, my addition was a *little* off =)

Assuming a 4000 point game (because as I said, he has way more than 3000 points in there...) I'd start with 10 units of 5 Harpies to lead those Chosen in a straight line so they'll touch nothing else all game. I'd also plop down 10 Reaper Bolt Throwers and shoot exclusively at the Chaos Warrior blocks. They should go down pretty easily under those conditions. I'd also keep two sets of three chariots each by those Warrior blocks for easy cleanup after two or more rounds of shooting.

If you want to engage your opponent, field a block of 40 Executioners backed by a Cauldron of Blood. Sprinkle in the Lore of Shadow for debuffs or the Lore of Metal for killing. I'd hardly call his list "unbeatable". More like "cheezy".


Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:15 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:50 pm
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I have just found out in a Store vs Store Paired tourney (1250 each) Empire (MANY WarMachines and Knights) and WoC (Chosen and Altars that just keep pumping the 4+ Ward save apparently). I was actually thinking since the list is small, that Metal would be a good Lore to take because I know the list is too small for a Stank, I KNOW those WoC are coming for melee. I can't really figure anything else that WOULD really work aside just pouring on damage more than he can regenerate it, or forcing tests on his warmachine (tho, I've heard the last buff stays on their unit. period. don't end unless it's switched)

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Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:02 am
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Executioner
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phierlihy wrote:
Thanks Darktan, my addition was a *little* off =)

Assuming a 4000 point game (because as I said, he has way more than 3000 points in there...) I'd start with 10 units of 5 Harpies to lead those Chosen in a straight line so they'll touch nothing else all game. I'd also plop down 10 Reaper Bolt Throwers and shoot exclusively at the Chaos Warrior blocks. They should go down pretty easily under those conditions. I'd also keep two sets of three chariots each by those Warrior blocks for easy cleanup after two or more rounds of shooting.

If you want to engage your opponent, field a block of 40 Executioners backed by a Cauldron of Blood. Sprinkle in the Lore of Shadow for debuffs or the Lore of Metal for killing. I'd hardly call his list "unbeatable". More like "cheezy".


Know that you actually 25% core to go with it before you can start doing that ;)
I'm not sure if it was meant to be a bit of sarcasm on your part just to point out the fact that his list is beatable or what. Because it's about 2150pts for the harpies, bolts and chariots. And the Harpies don't actually count for core unless that's been changed with some recent faq.

The trick to beating WoC really is to find a way to bypass their armour. No matter how well you outmaneuver him, or stack up CR, you won't win if you can't kill many models and he thumps you with just his characters within his unit. His blocks are so big that he'll be dishing out a lot of attacks no matter where you hit him from.

So if he has a 4+ ward on top of his 3+/4+ AS, then it's why I say magic is your best friend because Dark Magic has two AS bypassing spells, so he's back to only one save. Metal has a whole bunch of armour reducing spells, plague permanently drops AS by one point stackable. So reducing that save to a 5+ and put in AP attacks will once again, make him only take one save.

Otherwise you're going to need some hard hitting muscle to grind him down, because shooting isn't going to do nearly enough damage when his blocks are so massive.

You also will do well by denying him ACR as much as possible. Obvious, but it's not about who scores the most ACR, because WoC will beat DE in that race easily. But making him score very little to no ACR and you win by combining CR from charging, disrupting, flank etc etc. A forest would be handy too, since it denies steadfast, thereby, making his massive blocks redundant. Reducing frontage, putting in Word of Pain and such all helps contribute to that. Having only two blocks makes it very easy to control his movements too, especially leading one block away and setting up flank charges against the other block.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:37 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I was not trying to be ignorant. That 600ish points of Harpies will literally hold up 2000 points of his Chosen all game. That gives you a 1500 point advantage over your opponent that you can use to mop up the rest of his army with. Drop those 1500 points into core and your good to go.

To punch through his lines I would seriously consider a unit of 8ish Cold One Knights with your BSB bearing the Hydra Banner and blessed by a Cauldron of Blood. They can blow through a Marauder unit or a smallish unit of Warriors and suddenly they're in the back field where nobody wants them. Good times!


Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:55 pm
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Beastmaster

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:51 am
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a 2xx point dreadlord can do the job of those harpies even better...


Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:43 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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True. But he also causes panic. And comes out of the army's Lord points. I'd rather see Harpies do their duty than risk a Dreadlord.


Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:04 am
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Executioner
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I like Meteor's assassin idea. Personally I like taking assassins versus WoC. They have to issue challenges in every combat so I usually build an assassin with:

Rune of Khaine

Dark Venom

Touch of Death

If nothing else you have a decent enough chance in the first round of combat to get a killing blow so long as whatever you're fighting isn't immune, that mixed with the combat res from the duel you should be sitting pretty if the dice are even slightly in your favor.

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Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:41 am
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