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Speed bumping 8th edition style 
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Dark Rider

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm
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I have had quite good results in using samll, sacrificial units to park 1" in front of enemy units and NOT flee from a charge.

counting in general on being wiped out, this means the enemy can make an overrun move off course, but they will lose out on the former charge range by M value -1, meaning you can have set up charges for your turn at about 10 or 11" distance behind the speed bumb.

11" is not a normally safe distance from an enemy charge, due to 2d6 + M value charge range, but 10" is quite safe for an overrun of only 2d6 "

and if the opponent does not charge at all, he is severly handicapped in movement, gives the sacrifical unit a good shooting protection (hard cover, may not threaten his own units with warmachines.


Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:05 pm
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Put that sacrificial unit 1" in front but at a silly angle and the enemy unit has to choose between a)reforming, meaning you traded a small unit for slowing your opponent's movement to 1" that turn. Or b)overrunning away from the centre of the field and possibly exposing their flank to a charge.

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Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:04 pm
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Dark Rider

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possibly, but in general that also exposes them to other units.

I use my 3x2 WE or BG for this, that way they can block and still be out of sight for other units, put them in an angle and another unit can charge them instead.


Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:31 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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sulla wrote:
Put that sacrificial unit 1" in front but at a silly angle and the enemy unit has to choose between a)reforming, meaning you traded a small unit for slowing your opponent's movement to 1" that turn. Or b)overrunning away from the centre of the field and possibly exposing their flank to a charge.


Not necessarily. If the enemy charges and you hold, after winning the combat, the enemy unit can reform if it restrains pursuit or decides not to overrun. The enemy unit won't move very far, but it can face wherever it wants and one of your units will be dead.

This free reform after combat means that accepting a charge with a sacrificial unit generally doesn't get you much. As a consequence, it is generally better to flee with your bait unit, preferably without giving the enemy any real viable targets to redirect onto.

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Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:13 pm
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Dark Rider

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fleeing is quite risky nowadays.

charge move is M value + 2d6, flee movement = 2d6

the whole idea about this setup is not to redirect the enemy, but to be able to set up a combined charge in your turn by slowing him down.

normal charge range = M value + 2d6
charge + overrun distance this way = 1 + 2d6
your counter charge distance is again M value + 2 d6.

you effectifly cut him short on 3 - 8 inch of movement so your infantry can effectifly charge his cavalry.

Bait and flee tactics are dead in the 8th in my book, bait and sacrifice is still very viable thou


Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:02 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I don't think bait and flee is dead at all. If you are trying to get away, there is more risk since you don't know exactly how far the enemy will charge. But you can still do it as long as you don't get too close.

But you can also bait and flee with the intention of getting caught. If you move up a bait unit 1" away from the enemy, flee instead of taking the charge. Your unit will get caught and be run down, but the charging enemy can't reform, so you can force it out of position based on the direction of the flee move.

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Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:37 pm
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Rending Star
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The problem with that is the option to redirect (coupled with the large charge ranges).

Also, if you catch the fleeing unit, you can immediately reform with a successful Ld test.

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Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:44 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Thanee's right about the re-form. Just goes to show you that I am still getting used to the new rule set. Fleeing with the intention of being caught isn't a good option then ...

That being said, you can still try to bait an flee with the intention of getting away. Redirection can be managed by: (1) keeping possible redirection targets far enough away such that your opponent will have to roll very high to get there; and/or (2) since a unit can only redirect once, use a second fast, light unit and flee with it as well if the opponent redirects.

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Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:42 pm
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Dark Rider

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If i could get 2 baiters to flee and spread panic in different directions like that, i dont mind to have to move forward an undetermind number of inches.

with the current long possible charge ranges, its not hard to redirect the charge another direction, and well, at least one of them is gonna be outside BSB bubble then.

the only option is see for this is when ye bait and flee a frenzy check failed unit, since those dont have chaoice but MUST declare against the closest one, also, since you flee and roll the dice for flee distance, then the opponent cna choose to try to redirect or to keep on charging that one, you roll low, he will just take it over, you roll high, he will try to redirect. (he has not yet rolled charge distance then, but you roll flee distance as soon as you declare a flee reaction).

I stand at my point of view bait and flee is dead in this edition, with the only exception of low Ld units outside general and BSB bubble (ex goblins, undead).


Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:25 pm
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Bait and flee doesn't work anymore.
Bait and hold does though as it your opponent is either pulled out of position or allows you to charge them in your turn.

I think this can work quite nicely with units like Handbow Corsairs or Witch Elves. Further more due to our high I we can inflict a few casualties first making our main unit more likely to win the fight.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:41 am
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
sulla wrote:
Put that sacrificial unit 1" in front but at a silly angle and the enemy unit has to choose between a)reforming, meaning you traded a small unit for slowing your opponent's movement to 1" that turn. Or b)overrunning away from the centre of the field and possibly exposing their flank to a charge.


Not necessarily. If the enemy charges and you hold, after winning the combat, the enemy unit can reform if it restrains pursuit or decides not to overrun. The enemy unit won't move very far, but it can face wherever it wants and one of your units will be dead.

This free reform after combat means that accepting a charge with a sacrificial unit generally doesn't get you much. As a consequence, it is generally better to flee with your bait unit, preferably without giving the enemy any real viable targets to redirect onto.


My thoughts exactly.. there is no need for us to do bait and flee tactics as much as we did in prior editions. We already have the advantage of natural high movement armywide and charging only gives a +1 in the combat resolution. We strike first most of the time and thus our opponents are usually the ones who hesitate charging. The best way to "speed bump" your opponent is still terrain and positioning of you own units.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:45 am
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Dark Rider

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While it does not matter if you can charge or not on a 1 on 1 unit combat, it is still VERY important if you want to combine 3 units to gangbang on one, especially if one of those units is a chariot or cavalry, or if the opponent has units like that near/ the ones that charge.

The + 1 CR is moot, but charge bonuses like lances and impact hits are not, as well as is being charged by terror causers (charge them and terror is no issue, get charged and ye can fail a Ld check).


Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:19 am
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
sulla wrote:
Put that sacrificial unit 1" in front but at a silly angle and the enemy unit has to choose between a)reforming, meaning you traded a small unit for slowing your opponent's movement to 1" that turn. Or b)overrunning away from the centre of the field and possibly exposing their flank to a charge.


Not necessarily. If the enemy charges and you hold, after winning the combat, the enemy unit can reform if it restrains pursuit or decides not to overrun. The enemy unit won't move very far, but it can face wherever it wants and one of your units will be dead.

This free reform after combat means that accepting a charge with a sacrificial unit generally doesn't get you much. As a consequence, it is generally better to flee with your bait unit, preferably without giving the enemy any real viable targets to redirect onto.
:) I guess I wasn't clear enough; some people seem to think I meant to flee with the sacrificial unit. I should have added that they hold and die. If they hold, you have restricted them to one inch of movement for that turn. If they pursue, it is at the angle of the combat, exposing their flank to a charge. The idea is to put the enemy into a no-win position. Or at least a no preferrable outcome position. It's a worthwhile sacrifice of the harpy unit. far better than fleeing and risking getting caught or starting a chain of panic. I find that often I am heavily outnumbered thanks to cheaper enemy units and massed enemy templates. It's useful to have a few tactics to slow those enemy units down or avoid their fronts. This is one of my most successful.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:08 am
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I use this tactic of sacrificial unit a lot of times and most of the times to avoid that an important unit (mainly the repeater crossbow units with mages) to be charged. The sacrificial unit is put under an angle, so that it will overrun in the direction I want.

Since I am using a lot of small, hard hitting mobile units, (Hydra' s, Coc, CoK, shades with assassin, BG) most of the times there is space to set up a trap. In this case the charger is hesitating because if he attacks he knows that he will be attacked in the next turn from different sides by hard hitting units

Most suitable sacrificial unit are harpies. In the worst case DR.

Bait and flee I use seldom nowadays, that is why DR I use this from nostalgy (they performed too well in the previous edition to send the simply to pension. :( )


Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:42 am
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What I normally do now is park two units of harpies right in front of the unit I want to pull forward, keeping in mind to avoid LOS of other enemy units. My opponent either charges the first harpy unit, or stay still, if he charges, I flee, he can fail charge 1" away from the second harpy unit, or redirect into them. I then flee this second unit of harpy if he redirects, since you can only redirect once, he'll most likely fail charge, now he's 1-6" out of place ready for a combined charge in your turn. The first unit of harpy won't panic the second harpy unit, and both units don't panic any of our own units too. You could park a third unit behind the second baiting unit of harpies, they'll just fail charge and stop 1" away from your third unit. But that's an unlikely case.

With the double fleeing harpy tactic, you conserve 110pts and ensure you do pull them 1-6" out of place and possibly in an awkward angle if you positioned it well. The overrun tactic is too unreliable since they can restrain and reform, making you unable to pull them out of place to expose their flanks better.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:40 pm
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Meteor is exactly right. I should have been more clear in myprior post that the way to use 2 bait units is to stack them one in front of the other. No risk of your opponent completing the charge, and you have complete control over the direction the enemy goes.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:52 pm
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Dark Rider

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could work, in the (in my eyes limited) situation that those harpies cannot be charged by something else instead.

I.E, this can only work if the opponent is moving badly.


Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:22 pm
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... but if your opponent can charge the your bait units with something else, then that unit will normally get pulled sideways across the battle line, disrupting his advance, with the charging unit potentially getting in the way of the unit you are attempting to delay and therefore doing your job for you.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:39 pm
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Trainee Warrior

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To me this double harpy speed bump seems a little cheese tactic because it completely relies on the rule that you can only redirect once.
It doesn't make sense: because you succeed in chasing off two units by you charge you are not allowed to engage a third. You need to stay away from them 1"... I don't see that happen on any real (or fanatasy) battlefield.

I would not use this tactic in regular play, only vs beardy players with über-units.


Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:01 pm
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It's also why I said to keep in mind of LOS of other enemy units.

It's the easiest sure fine way to pull enemy units out, since Harpies can fly over intervening units and terrain to block what you want. Doesn't ALWAYS work, but the opportunities you can find are plentiful.

Another thing I normally do is park a unit of spears relatively close behind a unit of harpies or something cheap, and have nearby counter charge units at the ready (some distance away so it's not blinding obvious what you're setting up). You force your opponent to either not move, or charge your harpies, you hold, let him kill them, he probably thinks it's a good idea overrunning into your spears. The fight goes on in your coming turn, your counter units flank him, your spears also gets a third fighting rank for holding from his overrun. And if he sees your plan and restrains and reform, meh, you're now charging and fighting him in your terms, which is just as good.

What I don't like to do is do actual speed bumps where all you do is park an expendable (cheapest being 50pts worth of WEs) 1" in front of the enemy unit and literally be a speed bump. It's inefficient because you're sacrificing units for no real gain save for delaying them a march or one charge turn. Use miasma if you want to slow them down, use terrain to deter them, not a free 50pt+ unit.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:11 pm
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Meteor wrote:
keep in mind of LOS of other enemy units.
So what?
If the other unit charges first, stand! The other unit will block your main opposite unit. You've lost one harpy unit, you've gained a second target for your troops eager to multi-charge.
If the other unit charges last, it will just force a second flee reaction for the harpies.

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Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:30 pm
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Dyvim Tvar wrote:
Meteor is exactly right. I should have been more clear in myprior post that the way to use 2 bait units is to stack them one in front of the other. No risk of your opponent completing the charge, and you have complete control over the direction the enemy goes.


I'm not understanding how there isn't any risk for him to complete the charge? Wouldn't he charge the first harpy unit which flees, then redirects onto the second one which also flees- but - couldn't he still potentially catch the harpy unit, especially if they are one after the other? I'm still a little unclear about this part, any help would be great :D


Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:51 am
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I should have said no significant risk.

Put the second bait unit 4" behind the first. When the first unit flees, it should end up behind the second bait unit. And if there is a redirect onto the second unit, it flees and should end up right back behind the first one. Since the charging unit can't redirect back onto the first unit, a failed charge results.

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Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:47 am
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Ok that makes a lot more sense and is really sneaky! I love it and will probably put some harpies back in my list, thanks


Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:29 pm
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You can place your harpies so that 1 model is in the front arc of the enemy unit, 1" away and the rest of the unit is at an angle but in the side arc. If he charges, you hold, compress around the centre model which moves the single model out of the front arc and cannot be caught with the free 90 degree wheel. That results in a failed charge and an exposed flank as he must wheel to try to catch you. If he decides not to charge he can only move sideways as he cannot come within 1" of the harpy in the front arc

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Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:10 pm
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