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3000 point lists: Magic basically a requirement? 
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For the most part, Dark Elf lists are leaning towards magic. I myself am enjoying using a Dragon in my 2500 list, but I'm looking to expand to 3000 points and I'm not really convinced that the dragon is very feasible at that point level compared to how strong magic is. A Supreme Sorc seems necessary just to be able to counter the immensely powerful choices my opponents will bring at 3000 points. 3000 points allows an opponent to field a lot of hostile magic, warmachines and deathstars, and trying to tackle any of those options without a Supreme Sorc in the list doesn't seem possible.

Thoughts? Does magic become more of a requirement in larger games, where its needed to counter nasty opponents?

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Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:25 pm
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Personally, I cannot fathom ignoring what pretty much equates to 25% of the game; no matter the point total. Magic constitutes an entire phase. If you don't properly gear up towards that phase of the game, then your opponent will look to exploit that (I know I would). Whether that's taking a level 4 for the +4 dispel or even just a level 2 with a scroll or seal of ghrond, I feel there needs to be something there to provide suitable defense to such a large part of the game.


Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:44 pm
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At 3K, I think you can allow yourself the often debated Manti-Lord. Some love him, some hate him. Put tooled with the Cloak of Hag Gref, DeathPiercer and Potion of Foolhardiness, he can be a real pain in the flank. IF you want to go crazy, give him the BDE. I believe he is a better tool than the DragonLord, who just eats up far too much %.

I have to agree with JL177 about magic as well. At least x2 L2's in this edition - even if they are a just dispellers. If your afraid of Miscasts - give them both Dark Magic, so easy to cast you can spam the phase with 1-2 dice casting.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:08 am
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Tethlis wrote:
For the most part, Dark Elf lists are leaning towards magic. I myself am enjoying using a Dragon in my 2500 list, but I'm looking to expand to 3000 points and I'm not really convinced that the dragon is very feasible at that point level compared to how strong magic is. A Supreme Sorc seems necessary just to be able to counter the immensely powerful choices my opponents will bring at 3000 points. 3000 points allows an opponent to field a lot of hostile magic, warmachines and deathstars, and trying to tackle any of those options without a Supreme Sorc in the list doesn't seem possible.

Thoughts? Does magic become more of a requirement in larger games, where its needed to counter nasty opponents?


I've watched a couple of 3k games for 8th ed and while more than capable of fielding a 3k myself I have not made one of my own. Based on observations however, Magic in bigger games is akin to shooting, you can't win with just a magic heavy list however you also cannot survive a 3k game without a Supreme Sorceress even if she is just there for magic defense. Regardless if you are a Horde army or not, a 3k army will always have 2-3 blocks of 30 man infantry, put a couple of monsters and 2-3 units of specials depending on how tooled up one is. Now since everyone has at least 1 level 4, spells are bound to get cast without even considering possibilities of IF. That being said, you need that additional +4 to dispel all those smaller spells casted by his level 2 at the very least. For magic defense in a 3k game you need a level 4 with a Seal of Ghrond with a dispell scroll or better yet a Feedback scroll or some setup similar to that or you might end up seeing one of those big blocks of yours disappear to one of the template/vortex spells.

An alternative route of course is our Master/Dreadlord on a DP to suicide bomb that mage. Ring of Hotek does wonders in bigger games I tell you but the problem of such is that at 3k he can have his mages spread out with only one mage in range of the ring, and this is assuming you manage to get the bearer within range of the ring. At 3k, points spent for the RoH are golden.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:43 am
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Ichiyo1821 wrote:
...however you also cannot survive a 3k game without a Supreme Sorceress even if she is just there for magic defense.


I don't think this is true. With dispel dice being generated independently, it is "only" the +4 bonus (which is a lot, but still) you are missing out on in the defense.

I honestly believe that it is completely possible to play a viable 3k list without any Sorceresses in it at all.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:29 am
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In my current 2500, I run a Level 2 for support and I have tried a variety of different configurations. I think having SOME kind of magic presence is important, but whether or not one can afford to take a modest approach to magic at the 3k level, or whether one should invest in the full Supreme Sorc is a question I haven't sorted out yet.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:03 am
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1. Size does not matter.
At 1k, you get 2 to 12 PD.
At 3k, you get 2 to 12 PD.
Just to say that the amount of magic you can cast is the only thing that does not scale up when you increase the size of the army.
At 3k, magic is not more immense than at 1k.
(note, there are a few size-scaling exceptions: channelling, PoD, Death Magic).


2. Size matters.
In small games, though, the targets of magic make a large % of any army, and you have to invest a large % into magic caster.
The larger the game goes, the lesser % of any army can be influenced by magic, but the lesser % you have to invest into it.

In small games, you have to make tough choices and select rock, paper OR scissor.
In large games you can get them all.


3. Cost-efficiency.
I agree with Thanee, at 3k, you could ignore opponent's magic, which is rather unlikely to affect more than ~25% of any army, which leaves ~75% of the army to play unbothered. If you really want to go magicless, it is feasible.

However, it is sub-optimal.
You get the PD anyway. You could spend 3% of your total and get a level 1. For such a cheap investment, you are certain to get the default spell of the Lore of your wish, that you can cast with all 12 PD if you get them.
I'd recommend at least a scroll caddy.


4. Conclusion:
In large games, you are more likely to face strong magic, but strong magic is less likely to be game-breaking than in smaller games.
In large games, magic offence & defence is an easier investment than in smaller games.
At least, take a scroll caddy. At most, take no more than what a magic-heavy 2k list requires.
Anything in-between makes sense and is not game-breaking.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:20 am
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Calisson wrote:
1. Size does not matter.
At 1k, you get 2 to 12 PD.
At 3k, you get 2 to 12 PD.
Just to say that the amount of magic you can cast is the only thing that does not scale up when you increase the size of the army.
At 3k, magic is not more immense than at 1k.
(note, there are a few size-scaling exceptions: channelling, PoD, Death Magic).


2. Size matters.
In small games, though, the targets of magic make a large % of any army, and you have to invest a large % into magic caster.
The larger the game goes, the lesser % of any army can be influenced by magic, but the lesser % you have to invest into it.

In small games, you have to make tough choices and select rock, paper OR scissor.
In large games you can get them all.


3. Cost-efficiency.
I agree with Thanee, at 3k, you could ignore opponent's magic, which is rather unlikely to affect more than ~25% of any army, which leaves ~75% of the army to play unbothered. If you really want to go magicless, it is feasible.

However, it is sub-optimal.
You get the PD anyway. You could spend 3% of your total and get a level 1. For such a cheap investment, you are certain to get the default spell of the Lore of your wish, that you can cast with all 12 PD if you get them.
I'd recommend at least a scroll caddy.


4. Conclusion:
In large games, you are more likely to face strong magic, but strong magic is less likely to be game-breaking than in smaller games.
In large games, magic offence & defence is an easier investment than in smaller games.
At least, take a scroll caddy. At most, take no more than what a magic-heavy 2k list requires.
Anything in-between makes sense and is not game-breaking.


Sorry but I beg to disagree that magic is equal at 1k or 3k games. The less units you have the more magic becomes potent similar to shooting. If you get hit but lets say one of the bigger spells out there and take out an entire unit or force a unit of yours to panic at 1k games the game is almost always
over as opposed to losing one unit at a 3k game. As such magic again as I have said less game changing but this is only true against some lores. At bigger games direct damage lores lose out to support lores which help the entire army in general. Yes incoming damage can be minimal but the potency of certain spells like for Example Birona's Time Warp can make a rather easy battle into a difficult one. THERE IS SCALING IN EVERY ASPECT of warhammer. Example given aside from magic. 5 Dark Riders at a 2k game is quuite frail and easy points, however 10 Dark Riders at 3k is not. You certainly don't want to say for example shoot them with your 20 Lothern Sea Guard but If they get close enough they can take out your Tiranoc Chariot or go through 3 bolt throwers, take out your eagles with ease. You can rely on the winds of magic to get enough PD true but to be honest the points you will invest in a Supreme Sorceress in a 3k game is so minimal that you'll sooner regret not having the additional versatility of being competent in all the phases. This is coming from a person who hates magic and as much as possible brings along a Sorceress for magic defense. Again you can try just having a level 2 but then a list can be so much better with a level 4. The points that you spend from a level 2 to 4 is like what 100 points which get you what? 10 more RXB?Spears? Corsairs? Just my 2 cents.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:35 am
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I guess one major difference between smaller and larger games is that in a smaller game it is possible to eliminate an enemy's magic quite quickly (a 1k army might field just one wizard, for example - if the wizard is lost early on then the army's magic capacity is completely severed) whereas in larger games your opponent may field a good number of wizards, allowing him to keep on casting spells even if one or two get destroyed.

Personally, I think that most 3k lists should have at least some magic, if only for defence. The much heralded single level 4 with a buffing magic defence item (e.g. staff of sorcery, dispel scroll, feedback scroll, etc) costs just 10% of your points at 3k but could really put a huge dent into your opponent's magical efforts (particularly satisfying if he has spent a lot more on his magic than you have). A single level 2 with buffing item costs just over 5%, although is slightly less effective.

However, non-wizard options still exist: the seal of ghrond on a hero (+1 dispel dice is very helpful) and the ring of hotek on a pegasus flying hero can be a pain for static infantry wizards. Null talismans can help some too. Furthermore, a non-wizard army can have more troops than one with a wizard, helping it to soak up any losses it might incur.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:26 am
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@ Ichiyo1821
"I beg to disagree"
Don't beg! We don't disagree! ;)
I did not say that magic is equal at 1k or 3k games. I mentioned that the winds of power are the same.
This aspect is the only one which does not scale up, so relatively speaking, the importance of spells scales down (in % of army it can affect) when the size of the army increases.
Other aspects can scale up: taking more magic users for redundancy, each of them getting a different arcane item...

The rest of your post is fully along with my paragraphs 2, 3 & 4.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:08 am
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Quote:
However, it is sub-optimal.
You get the PD anyway. You could spend 3% of your total and get a level 1. For such a cheap investment, you are certain to get the default spell of the Lore of your wish, that you can cast with all 12 PD if you get them.
I'd recommend at least a scroll caddy.


This is particularly true. Whereas in 7th you could justify taking no magic because you had a max of 4 character slots at 2k and 6 at 3k, in 8th it's done by points: a level 1 by herself costs virtually nothing, thus allowing you to still take all the fighting characters you could want :)

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:24 am
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Yep, I think a Level 2 (not that much more than a Level 1 and a good bit better, so if you buy a Level 1, there is really no reason not to upgrade her to Level 2) with a Dispel Scroll is a very good investment at higher point games, even if you do not really want to emphasize on magic. You have 3 spells (incl. PoD), which is enough to make use of the 2-12 PD you get each turn, a +2 bonus to dispel and the scroll for one really important dispel.

It's possible to play without, but it is most likely better to include something like that.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:47 pm
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At 3k I'll be fielding a Lv4 Sorceress and a Lv3 Sorceress (neither are fully kitted out) as an example. But I wouldn't go beyond that without hampering a lot of my other character and troop support choices.

I'd stick to my iron rule of taking a Lv4 as a form of basic defense. But at 3k points, magic's influence isn't as big as in a smaller sized game for the reasons Calisson already mentioned.

So I would at least take a Lv2 with a scroll at 3k pts if you aren't going for a basic Lv4 for defense. At least then, you have a scroll for the 20+ to cast roll that's not off at IF, a +2 to dispel mediocre casts and participate in the magic phase with your PD aside from dispelling remains in play.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:02 pm
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Quote:
At 3k I'll be fielding a Lv4 Sorceress and a Lv3 Sorceress (neither are fully kitted out) as an example


Forgive my ignorance, but why a level 3 and a level 4 rather than 2 level 4s? It seems a shame to spend nearly 250 points on a model and then not go the extra couple of points to give her a +4 bonus to casting and dispelling rather than a +3.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:15 pm
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I think that in 8th, the scroll is not as good as before. One use only when many people are playing the BIG spells with IF.... not good.

For high level games, I think that a lvl 4 is way better than a lvl 2 with a scroll. Give her +1 to dispel and the sceal. You got a 325pts figs, which can dispel at +5, will have 4 spells to use with automatic PD, and bring 1 DD to the pool. In 3000pts games, you are investing 10% in one of the 4 phases of the game. Not that much.


Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:00 pm
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Well truthfully I'd keep the Lv3 a Lv2 scholar build. But at 3k pts there's enough room to upgrade her to a Lv3 to maintain the three spells and take a powerscroll for emergency use with my shadow spells. It's just a personal taste to have one slightly better than the other, we're not skaven so we shouldn't be having leader rivalry of sorts :P

And of course it's much better having a Lv4 to dispel for you, especially with the setup you described. It's probably as potent as we can get without using one use items. The Lv2 scroll suggestion is for those who wants to try bare minimum magic defense at 3k. You can get a pretty decent unit or combat character with that 160pts difference ;)

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:50 pm
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Sometimes it's the small spells that you don't want to let through... Like Caress of Laniph on your own level 4 wizard.

To me, taking no magic at all in 8th edition is a waste of 2d6 power dice that you will get no matter if you take a wizard or no.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:11 pm
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JL177 wrote:
Personally, I cannot fathom ignoring what pretty much equates to 25% of the game; no matter the point total.


I find this to be an ideal premise- We're not stunties, and we're GOOD at what we do. We're speedy, good casters, we're good shooters, and while we are fragile, we're smart enough to sucker punch people in melee. It's why the other races will fall before our might.

I think having the backup Scholar built Sorceress never hurts no matter what level you play at, and the premise of a supreme Sorc w/ an extra spell scales due to size

1K= STOMPSTOMPSTOMP (tho you can't have the supreme- but 2 lev 2s is still hardcore for the most part)
2K= Can be equal to overwhelming (depending on opponent) I find this is where they TRULY become targets that are doggedly hunted.
3K= Going with Cali on one point: Dice Pool totals and how they can be spread. Even with PoD, our first thing is to wear out their Dispels and then hit with the bigger spells. I think at this and 4K (I haven't played 4K yet tho) Adding a 3rd Lv 2 DOES seem to balance things out.

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Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:36 pm
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Echoing a lot of earlier views. Going from 2k to 3k points won't really change the amount of offensive magic you are going to face as your opponent is limited to 12 PD even if you are playing at 10k points.

As far as I can see you should still be able to win games with no magic at all but it will be probably a bit harder.
I'd take at least one minor wizard. She gives a bonus across the whole army for dispelling plus you can always chuck 6 dice at spells like Purple Sun and destroy whole units with little risk.

Theres also always the possibility you are playing dwarves or another player who has taken no or little magic in which case magic less is a good idea.

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Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:51 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Sometimes it's the small spells that you don't want to let through... Like Caress of Laniph on your own level 4 wizard.

To me, taking no magic at all in 8th edition is a waste of 2d6 power dice that you will get no matter if you take a wizard or no.


Exactly my point as well. People overlook this small thing with the new magic system. Aside from dispelling people forget that if you have a remains in play spell or buff/ debuff, you are FORCING your opponent to use his OWN powerdice to remove them thus leaving him with less dice to use on my units. If I continue to cast debuffs on him or combat changing buffs on my own unit, chances are he will have less dice to cast the bigger spells Dwellers, Pit, Gateway, Plague, 13th DS etc etc. This is what I'd call a pro active magic defense which in cases more effective than dispelling your opponents spell outright. No magic is possible however again why gimp yourself when we don't suck at that department? :roll:

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Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:24 am
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Just about everyone's answered from the point of needing a mage in a 3k game. Can we switch it around? If you wern't going to take a caster in 3k what would you do to combat the opponant's magic? Would it be effective enough? Discuss.....


Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:39 am
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I don't see people take Ring of Hotek as much these days but to be honest it's still very good as long as you have a unit that can get close enough to his wizards. Best anti-magic setup if the points allow is having a Seal of Ghrond and still one dispell scroll for those insanely lucky rolls. Feedback Scroll is ok if your opponent gets too greedy or is unaware that yup have one on your list. Another option really is a Dreadlord or Master on a DP whose role is to take that level 4 out as fast as he can being very agile. As for Null Stones, most damaging spells have a high casting costs and thus your opponent is likely to throw as many dice as they can to cast it therefore the chances of rolling IF goes higher making Null Talismans ineffective in such cases.

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Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:13 am
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Agree with null talismans being useless, but for other reasons.
The null talisman gives no DD anymore, but provides an additional ward save. The ward save works as well if the spell was IF...
However, this ward save works only if the spell was a MM or a DD spell, not a hex (nor an augment, of course). Some vortexes don't allow any save of any kind, so null shards are useless here as well.
You can avoid MM and DD by just being inside a melee, or out of range or out of LOS. That's a reason why these spells are often the least preferred.
This does not leave much use for null shards.

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Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:29 am
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So the most direct way will be to set a cheap champion-less suicide squad onto these casters and attempt to kill them so you no longer have to worry about enemy magic. Even killing a Lv2 will be two less spells for you to worry about, not to mention it'll net you some VP, hopefully more than what you threw in to kill that mage.

Shades and Witches are good for this, especially with KB blessing given.

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Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:58 am
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None of the big spells are Direct damage anyway but more of characteristic tests that remove models entirely thus making Null Talismans less desirable. as for the ward save, we don't have models with innate ward saves thus for you to effectively use them you need atleast 2 or 3 and at 15 points each you need atleast a master in a unit to carry just that and forgo magic items. Really not optimum in my opinion.

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Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:53 am
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