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50 Executioners 
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The Guiding Eye
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sulla wrote:
I don't find war machines to be much of a problem, but I am struggling to come up with a solution for hellcannons.
Master (pendent, soul render, BSB, dark peg, full armour) - charge in, 3 wounds to survive with, Battle Standard +1 to keep ya in it even if ya do lose a wound (no more +1 for the Hell cannon outnumbering you ;)) and mostly gain +1 combat res or better if you deal it any wounds (aka chaos dwarf handlers :twisted:)

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Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:09 am
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Dangerous Beans wrote:
sulla wrote:
I don't find war machines to be much of a problem, but I am struggling to come up with a solution for hellcannons.
Master (pendent, soul render, BSB, dark peg, full armour) - charge in, 3 wounds to survive with, Battle Standard +1 to keep ya in it even if ya do lose a wound (no more +1 for the Hell cannon outnumbering you ;)) and mostly gain +1 combat res or better if you deal it any wounds (aka chaos dwarf handlers :twisted:)
I may have to resort to him (actually have a model anyway)... It just means my dreadlord misses out on the pendant. I suppose I could try out the black amulet on him; not optimal, but a lot of fun anyhow...

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Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:31 am
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Dark Rider

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no need to be afraid of outnumbering, since that is gone


Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:35 am
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Hi!

Would be nice to see if you followed up on this and how it went.

I've had good success with a list sporting 40 Execs, supported by dual hydras, dual shades, harpies, xbows, CoB, etc. The cauldron is what really makes a difference, especially the 5+ ward. Fit in the MR(1) banner as well and you got a sweet 4+ Ward against magic.

//Seto


Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:55 pm
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Setomidor wrote:
Hi!

Would be nice to see if you followed up on this and how it went.

I've had good success with a list sporting 40 Execs, supported by dual hydras, dual shades, harpies, xbows, CoB, etc. The cauldron is what really makes a difference, especially the 5+ ward. Fit in the MR(1) banner as well and you got a sweet 4+ Ward against magic.

//Seto


I agree with this premise. Execs already have good resistance to the existing "uber doom" spells out there, since Final Transmutation only kills 1/3, Strength 4 makes them quite resistant to Dwellers, and Initiative 5 shrugs off Pit of Shades and Purple Sun. For the Stone Thrower issue, horde formation still keeps those Execs relatively thin overall, and 5+ armor/5+ Ward is pretty decent for trying to shrug off those big templates. I don't think 50 is the right way to go, but I would certainly consider using 30 or so. Add in some Hydras/Chariots to help kill off additional models on a small frontage, and you can wipe out a lot of opponents before they even have a decent chance to retaliate. If an opponent wants to fire at buffed up Execs when there are also Hydras and other infantry blocks on the table, they can feel free to do so. I'll take those odds.

As with fighting any gunline: threat saturation. Yes, Executioners marching alone against 4 stone throwers will have a rough time. However, Executioners, Hydras, Shades, Harpies and Spearmen all dashing forward present a lot of very immediate threats.

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Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:04 pm
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Executioner

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:04 am
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I'd like to challenge the premise that Executioners are not good against HE. I run a unit of 28 with the flaming banner and they have been devastating against HE. With the 5+ ward save from the cauldron they can decimate a spearman unit and break them in a single round. They're also awesome for taking out PG bunkered characters in the break points scenario or just to rid your enemy of their BSB/General. Obviously you don't run them into Swordmasters, although I have had 21-25ish execs trounce a unit of 15 Swordmasters before. Save them for your crossbowmen. But I've definitely had games where without that Exec unit I would've lost and they made all the difference.

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Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:41 pm
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I think it's fair to say that ANY unit from any army with a 200 point buff on it (in this case the Cauldron of Blood) is going to be good. I wouldn't use the descriptor "cost effective" however.

A unit of High Elf Archers aren't great. Put 200 points of Swordmasters next to them and suddenly they rock!


Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:16 am
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phierlihy wrote:
I think it's fair to say that ANY unit from any army with a 200 point buff on it (in this case the Cauldron of Blood) is going to be good. I wouldn't use the descriptor "cost effective" however.


Sure, but that's true for lots of matchups. That's like saying "well yeah Grave Guard are just okay, without a 300 point BSB, Banner of the Barrows and a Vamp Lord with Helm to support them, they just suck." Yeah, that's entirely true, but you don't ever really see that since buying those upgrades suddenly turns them into a game-winning Deathstar. Their overall point cost, plus their support units, becomes much less relevant if they waltz around gathering VP while yielding few in return.

There isn't much point in evaluating things in a vacuum, since we rarely get to fight in a vacuum. Why NOT factor in the Cauldron, if your list is going to include one anyway, whether you're taking Execs or not?

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Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:25 pm
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That's the flaw inherent in this discussion. People want to discuss, as you quite accurately described it, "Executioners not in a vacuum" but that makes the variable opponents virtually impossible to discuss by the sheer volume of different combinations they might also face. You may as well talk about the "just ok" Grave Guard unit because they always have a Vampire giving them WS7. How do we consider Dwarven Longbeards when we know that a unit of 50 Executioners will likely have been hit by a mortar template or two as they trundled across the field (when was the last time you saw a Dwarf without a Mortar??). I agree with a lot of what's been said on a very basic level but my point is that overall this is a very superficial discussion. And as I mentioned, any unit worth 750ish points just isn't cost effective except as points denial.


Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:22 pm
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Quote:
(when was the last time you saw a Dwarf without a Mortar??)


I've never seen a dwarf *with* a mortar... they can't field any!

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Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:31 pm
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phierlihy wrote:
That's the flaw inherent in this discussion. People want to discuss, as you quite accurately described it, "Executioners not in a vacuum" but that makes the variable opponents virtually impossible to discuss by the sheer volume of different combinations they might also face. You may as well talk about the "just ok" Grave Guard unit because they always have a Vampire giving them WS7. How do we consider Dwarven Longbeards when we know that a unit of 50 Executioners will likely have been hit by a mortar template or two as they trundled across the field (when was the last time you saw a Dwarf without a Mortar??). I agree with a lot of what's been said on a very basic level but my point is that overall this is a very superficial discussion. And as I mentioned, any unit worth 750ish points just isn't cost effective except as points denial.


From my own perspective, I try to evaluate the worth of a setup when facing as many different armies as possible. Using your example, it's possible to narrow the discussion down a bit if you can evaluate how many armies have template ranged weapons versus how many don't, how many opponents have access to Deathstar-busting spells versus how many don't, what popular unit choices/configurations you're likely to see that can match up against this many Executioners. Figuring out that number can help establish how worthwhile the big Exec block can be in a take-all-comers environment.

Yes, there are a tremendous number of possibilities, but most armies have choices that are "general enough" that you can get a good sense of what to expect. Versus Warriors of Chaos, we generally think of big great weapon/flail wielding marauder hordes, Hellcannons, and tooled-out Chosen blocks. Are there a lot more things in that army? Sure, but generally they're either unpopular or generic enough that we don't have to specifically account for them.

Similarly, we can probably bank on a number of generalizations for Dark Elves, because even though not everyone is taking them, it's pretty common to see some combination of a Cauldron, a magic presence, a Hydra and repeater crossbow fire in most Dark Elf lists.

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Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:02 am
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phierlihy wrote:
That's the flaw inherent in this discussion. People want to discuss, as you quite accurately described it, "Executioners not in a vacuum" but that makes the variable opponents virtually impossible to discuss by the sheer volume of different combinations they might also face. You may as well talk about the "just ok" Grave Guard unit because they always have a Vampire giving them WS7. How do we consider Dwarven Longbeards when we know that a unit of 50 Executioners will likely have been hit by a mortar template or two as they trundled across the field (when was the last time you saw a Dwarf without a Mortar??). I agree with a lot of what's been said on a very basic level but my point is that overall this is a very superficial discussion. And as I mentioned, any unit worth 750ish points just isn't cost effective except as points denial.


Considering you were initially responding to my post and I was very specifically talking about Exec uses against High Elves, I don't see where you're going with this.

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Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:04 am
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Sorry Gethsemane, I was actually responding to Tethlis =)


Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:10 pm
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Currently I run 30 Exe's with a SoHG Hag and a +1 to movement banner. This Banner allows me to close the charge gap quickly and minimize my opponents shooting ability. This unit on it's own has it's flaws. However, when hold your opponent in check with CoK's nearby your Executioners got a little more threatening. The key for me (I'm sure many will have other Ideas) is when and where I deploy my Exe's. I have four units of 10 RxB, CoK, 2x Harpies and Corsairs to drop. All to bide my time for the perfect match up. For me that's anything with a great weapon not named Swordmaster ,I4 or less and Knights (preferably of the VC variety). I'm sure that this is old news, to some, however maybe it will work for someone out there. Maybe someone can expound on what's been presented and make it better.

But to answer the original question, 50 Exes at 2500, to me , leaves your list light in other places. However, in a 3000 point game, this size unit just may have it's merits.

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Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:51 am
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I think 40 is a very reasonable size for a 2500 pts game. You can suffer 10 wounds without starting to lose attacks and up to three ranks for breaking steadfast, even in Horde formation.

What most people miss is that in terms of being a Death-star unit, 40 execs are _really_ cheap. 525 pts for 40 with FC and either MR(1) or +M banner is only 20% of you army. Yes, you probably should count some of the points for the CoB in here as well, but NOT the full 225 (in the case of BSB). You're gaining a lot more than stubborn and a constant 5+ ward for the Execs, as you have a very durable BSB and can use the blessing for other units depending on how the game turns out.

Since the unit is so cheap, and will attract a lot of attention from the opponent, you shouldn't expect it to survive. Compare this to a Dragon lord. The point costs are similar, the roles are similar (scaring the opponent / absorbing heat / hitting hard), but the Execs are so much more hitty than the Dragon.

On a related topic, Shadow magic lends itself really well to a DE army, especially one sporting executioners and some supporting fire:

- Reduce D3 WS on opponents? Yes please. Hitting Execs on 5+ is huge.
- Reduce D3 Strength on opponents? YES PLEASE. Wounding Execs on 5+ and allowing their armour save is fantastic.
- Reduce D3 Toughness on opponents? Get those 40+ crossbows ready!


Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:47 am
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Has anyone who's used a big block of Executioners like has been described in this thread actually had it earn back its' victory points?


Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:56 pm
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Cold One Knight

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phierlihy wrote:
Has anyone who's used a big block of Executioners like has been described in this thread actually had it earn back its' victory points?


Each time I've played a 28 strong unit, in 7*4 formation. But you need the cauldron, and that's the drawback...

The Str 6 is their best value, no unit in the game got more than T4, so you wound everything on 2+. With -3 armor it's huge, since the best unit got a 3+ so get 6+ armor against you.


Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:02 pm
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Cold One Knight

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50 Exec's, while looking awesome on the battlefield surely cannot be worth the points!

I don't understand what "role" they will fill. If you want a big horde unit, go for spearmen, if you want something that hits hard, spend the points on a massive unit of Cold One Knights and a Chariot, who are quicker, hit harder and have better protection.

The only way i can see this many executioners being useful is by giving them an ASF Hag and then buffing them with a cauldron - but this unit is now so expensive and critical to your battle plan that it is just screaming "shoot at me!"

Anyway, that's my opinion - if they work for you then go for it. I just think, point for point, you could do SOOO much more! I'd take cavalry!

If you do manage to work them, let us know!

D


Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:09 pm
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Actually I'd be very concerned with running knights against Execs:

40 execs, FC, banner is 525 pts.
For this points, you can get roughly 14 knights with FC and a Chariot.

Let's assume no CoB and Chariot / Knights get the charge:

Chariot:
4.5 impact hits = 3.7 wounds
2 Spears = 1.2 wounds
Cold ones: 0.6 wounds

Total: 5.6 wounds

Knights (assume 2x7 formation):
7 Cold ones: 1.9 wounds
15 Knight attacks: 9.3 wounds

Total: 11.5 wounds

So you kill 17 on average.

Execs (Horde):
24 attacks, all directed at knights: 11 wounds.

---

Execs are steadfast on Ld8. Yes, they might break, but even if they do they took 300 pts worth of knights down with them.

In the following turn the chariot (4 attacks S4) and knights (9 attacks S4) inflict another 3.5 wounds. The remaining 19 Execs can direct up to 15 attacks on the knights and the remaining 5 at the chariot, killing all knights and inflicting 1.7 wounds on the chariot.

Result: All knights are dead, and the Chariot have to pass a break test with -4.

---

Do similar math against many other units, and you'll find that the Execs very often comes out on top.


Last edited by Setomidor on Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:44 am
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A quick one on spearmen, although they cost a lot less:

50 Spears (365?) vs. 40 Execs (525 pts):

Let's assume Execs charge to make the spearmen better:

Spears in horde: 41 attacks, 30.75 hits, 15.4 wounds, 10 kills
Execs in horde: 31 attacks, 27.5 hits, 23 kills.

Result; 27 Spearmen are not steadfast vs 30 execs, and they lose the combat with 14.


Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:49 am
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Cold One Knight

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Yes but i'm not talking about Knights Vs Executioners in a one on one battle. I'm more talking about them fighting against another army list. Ofc a horde of Executioners would beat 14 knights and/or 50 spearmen, i wouldnt expect anything less of them.

I'm more interested in if what else you could field instead of 50 exec against another army, say orcs and goblins or skaven.

In your scenario, yes, the executioners would win, but with a unit of 50 charging about the battlefield, i would be suprised if:

A) they get to the enemy unscathed and

B) the would loose against anything?

What my argument was is that for that many points, i personnaly think that you could get more bang for your bucks. CoK's are faster and can probably destroy three or four units in the time it takes the executioners to get to the enemy and smash one up.

Like i say, im sure against things like VC or WOC they could be useful, the lack of shooting means that you will get, more or less, the entire unit to the enemies lines where they can create merry hell. Against Dwarves, i'm not sure i would be so confident.

Regards

D


Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:01 pm
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As a skaven player, my immediate reaction to the words "50 executioners" is "massive point sink." They are very killy, but they're still elfs, and therefore still squishy. Most armies will avoid engaging that as long as possible, whether through redirection, screens, or anything else, and will throw templates at it like there's no tomorrow. I know if I saw a unit like that, I would do everything I could to ensure that it faced wither, plague, Doomrocket, warp lightning cannons, and/or poisoned wind before it ever saw combat. when it did, I would try to pair it with something unbreakable, and preferably something which forces repeated toughness tests. (Plague furnace horde comes to mind.) there are plenty of ways to reduce units of elfs, and putting that many points into one is begging to get shot up.


Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:20 am
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I use 21 in a 7*3 and have found them to be pretty good, but I am considering bumping them to 24 6*4 to give them a few more "wounds". Never really considered a horde because I find them ridiculous to maneouver with all the terrain we're putting down these days. I couldn't ever see myself using 40+ in one unit, i'd rather have two units of 21 or 24. That way its easier for at least one of them to make it to the enemy alive and get the matchup they want

But then again I never even run spears more then 30, so I guess I am not a typical giant unit user.

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Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:13 am
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phierlihy wrote:
Has anyone who's used a big block of Executioners like has been described in this thread actually had it earn back its' victory points?


In response to this question that has been brought up many times in this discussion, I have used it a number of times in my fun list. 2600 pt Morathi Wizarding Hat list (how to keep +4 to cast!)

Of all the games I played with that list, the Executioners massacred everything it faced. The flaw I found was, as everyone said, against enemy fire. I played a WE friend who kept shuffling his 5 units of 10 GG backwards as I advanced. By the time I got to him, I was whittled down to nothing. I don't exactly remember what happened to the CoB, I think it was giving me the 5+ ward onto the executioners constantly, but I couldn't roll 5+ saves at all that game.

Regardless, units of 10 Chaos Knights died to them, units of Ogres died to them. So long as the Executioners make it into combat relatively intact, they'll do fine without support, just the ASF banner.

However, it's still something I wouldn't recommend in a serious game. They make a very obvious threat and a very obvious trump card in your army that a no brainer would either stay away from or neutralise at ranged. Their most reliable use is a threat magnet, my opponents tended to focus on them more than anything else. Whilst the Executioners were the unit of the match, it still allowed my other support and attack elements to make it through relatively unscathed.

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Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:36 pm
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HellCannons
Anything that makes them test (Pit etc.)
Chariot charge or maybe BG/BOK?
What about Bolt Throwers because you can damage the crew ;)

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Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:47 pm
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