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D.R.A.I.C.H Stomping Ogres v8.0b 
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I been playing Fantasy for a little over 2 years old, with roughly 70 games as an Ogre to this day. I also played a fait bit of Dark Elves (around 20 games), so my knowledge is not so bad on both side.

This is the base of my D.R.A.I.C.H against Ogre. I'm hoping to edit it as i get comments and think of new things to add.

D.R.A.I.C.H How to kill a big mean Ogre v8.0b

Know Your enemy.

With 8th edition, Ogres got a whole lot harder to kill. They now fight in 2 ranks (with 2nd ranks having 3 attacks each), and their buff are now a whole different story.



Strenght
- Everything except Gnoblar, have Toughness 4 or better.
- Everything except Gnoblar, have Strenght 4 or better.
- Everything except Gnoblar, cause fear.
- Core units have 3 wounds, and 3 attacks. They only need 3 to get ranks, and can have their character safely tucked in 2nd rank if they wish to.
- Caster knows all spells from their lore, and all of them are cast on 3+. They are RiP, but play completely differently (we'll see it later)
- movement of 6” for everyone except Gnoblar.
- Bull charge (single impact hits/models) as soon as they charge from over 6”, at the strenght of the bulls + the number of ranks behind him.

Weakness
- Low armour. The best they have is 5+ on ironguts or the Bull upgraded with ironfist and light armour.
- Low leadership. A mixt of 7 and 8. General is 9, and is most likely followed closely by his BSB. So they are much harder to scare away than in 7th ed.
- Expensive units (except Gnoblar).
- Many units are now obsolete (Hunter, Yethzee, Maneater)
- Giant is not stubbord

How to beat them

Dominate Magic Phase
It's not about killing them with magic, its about avoiding them turning into god with buffs. They have 3 spell you MUST avoid staying on the table at all cost ;

#1 Bloodgruel
The spell allow the caster to regain 1 wound on a roll of 2+. It's important to note that their caster sometimes takes damage from their spell, so the best way to stop a Butcher from casting, is to lower his health.

#2 Trollguts
The spell gives 4+ Regeneration and MR2 to the unit.

#3 Toothcracker.
The spell gives +1 Toughness to the whole unit, and makes them Stubborn.

#4 BullGorger
The spells gives +1 Strenght to the whole unit, if the Butcher pass a Strenght test.

How to avoid those spell from stacking? There's two ways.
#1 Dispel. Either when they cast, or the following turn (they can be dispelled on a 7 in any following phase, so dont discard those dispel dice too fast!).
#2 Killing the caster. It sound hard, but i believe with Death, we got plenty of spell to do just that.



The magic spell against ogres are obviously Purple Sun and Pit of shades. All their core unit is I2, so they are not too hard to whipe with those spell.

Don't let them get any bonus on the charge
Ogre have one ability that can really turn the tide of a combat around, its called Bull charge. As soon as a unit of 3 or more Ogres charge from over 6", they get a special free attack called bull charge. Its basically a S4 hit/Bulls in front rank, with a +1 Strenght for each bulls behind him. So a unit of 9 bulls (3x3), would get 3 S7 autohit, before the combat even start. With the Stomp, it add up quickly.

Don't underestimate the power of the scraplauncher
Scraplauncher are one of the most feared chariot in the game. With a large template S3 Killing blow, they can quickly whipe a unit off the field.


Don't underestimate the power of the Gorger
Gorger are specialist at warmachine killer, unit locker. They are unbreakable, have Killing Blow, and T5. They can come in turn 2, but cant charge the turn they come in. Always keep them in mind when deploying if your ennemy have them, as they can lock some precious unit for 2 or 3 round of combat, until they finally get killed.


Gnoblar are not too small to be ignored
A unit of Gnoblar, as useless as they can be, can be a true tarpit when inside a General inspiring presence. They can be used as bunker to guard an important piece (like scraplauncher), and can be steadfast for a long long time.


How to build a list to beat them

I'm particulary against building an army to beat another army specifically, but there are a few things that will do wonders against Ogres.

Mage
2 choice are no brainer against ogre ; Death and Shadow. Here's a quick rundown of the usefullnes of the spell.

Death :
2 - Caress of Laniph : good to target Butcher (lvl2) or Slaughtermaster (lvl4), as they are S4, and the most wounds they suffer, the less they'll cast.
3 - Soulblight : A unit down to T3 S3 is alot easier to manage.
4 - Doom and Darkness : Especially useful if your opponent runs a horde. If you beat it, rolling 6 is alot harder than 9, even with a BSB nearby.
5 - Fate of Bjuna : alot harder to beat caster with that (they're Toughness 5), but when you only need one or two wound to kill it, it can be a game breaker.
6- Purple sun of WTF : that spell can easily whipe half of an Ogre army.

Shadow :
0 - Melkoth's mystifying Miasma : lowering their movmeent by D3 can really help you manage their advance. Lowering their ini or their WS isnt as important, unless you want them to hit you on 5s instead of 4s.
2 - Enfeebling Foe : They are only S4 (except the Ironguts who have a Greatweapon).
3 - Withering : lowering toughness by D3 is like turning Ogre into Gnoblar. It can be amazingly good, and since they hit last most of the time, it could even prevent a unit from charging you, fearing the S3 of our army.
4 - Penumbral Pendulum : anything that does Ini test is good, but since Ogre have to be killed for a cannonball to continue, i wouldnt bet too much money on that spell.
5 - Pit of WTF : since its scatter it is a bit risky, but it can whipe out a unit in one single spell.
6 - Okkam's Mindrazor : when all else fails, wound on 2s!

As you can see, those two magic are pretty much the anti-Ogres. And the best thing is that they also work against other army.

Lords/Heroes
One build that works pretty well against Ogre Tyrant (or even the standard RnF), is this :
OgreBlade , Armour of Darkness and Pendant of Khaeleth.

With that, you are S5, still hitting first most of the times, and are pretty much impossible to kill (against a standard bull (S4 AP), you get 3+ AS, then a 4- Wardsave). There's many other solid build, But since Ogres Tyrant can be pretty much unkillable, you have to hope for staying alive.

3 "type" of tyrant you could face :
(1) - the untouchable tyrant. WS7 -2 to hit him, T6, 5+ Wardsave
(2) - the unwoundable tyrant. WS6 T6, reroll to wound, 4+ Armor 5+ Wardsave
(3) - the Thundermace tyrant. Can decide to use a Small template in close combat, S4(8). Can be devastating, but its a one trick poney.

A Cauldron can do a decent job, but there's very little it can do to help us against Ogres, except giving us a 5+ Ward to survive Scraplauncher shot.



Core
Dark Rider can be especially good against ogre, as they cannont be stomped, and are fast enough to "go around" and get a proper charge. A rear/side charge can do wonder against big unit of ogres.

I'd personally avoid using Crossbowman, as their damage would most likely not be impressive against T4 army, unless you decide to couple it with a Shadow Caster, and can cast Withering on your opponent incoming units.

Corsairs vs Warrior could be debatable. I would personally avoid using Corsairs, as their 3 extra pts (when comparing with Warrior and shield) is imho too much for just an extra attacks. Large unit of Warrior could hold their own against Ogres, and with the help of magic, they could beat just about anything.

Harpy would do very badly against Ogre. Since everything but gnoblar cause fear, they'd have some real hard time hitting anything.

Special
Witch Elf, if they can survive up to close combat, can be devastating against Ogre, for the simple fact that they have poison. Small unit could be considered, to avoid attracting the wrath of the Scraplauncher.

Executioner. Their extra Strenght can be a blessing, but hitting after the Bulls could really decrease their attacks.

BlackGuard. Another obvious choice, they should too be kept small, or well protected.

Cold One Knight are at risk against Ogres. Since everything will at least gives a -2 AS, they might die faster than hoped.

Rare
Everything there is golden.

Hydra's breath could go through a unit of Ogres with ease.

Reaper Bolt thrower are better used in grapeshot, and should target the scraplauncher ASAP. They also must not think twice before turning around and gunning any Gorger incoming.

2 of each should do a pretty good job at dealing with the Ogres.

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Last edited by Enkiel on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:34 pm, edited 7 times in total.



Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:37 am
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version 8.0b :
Edited the Crossbow utility, as they can do a good job combined with Withering.

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Last edited by Enkiel on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:39 am
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Reserved

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:39 am
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I think crossbowmen can do wonders against ogres. The 5+ to wound is not so bad, because they can dish out so many shots. The ogres only get a 6+ or no save against the repeater crossbow. Armoursave is usually more decisive then toughness when it comes to shooting.

But it's probably better to concentrate fire because the ogres need to get dealt 3 wounds before they go down. it's perhaps also better with several small units rather then one large even though you want to concentrate fire, because if the ogres get into contact with a rxbunit the elves are going down...
The ogres have few units, so if they spend a round on a unit of 10xbowmen then thats a good situation for the dark elf player. One more round of shooting ;)

So I would say rxb is one of the best units against ogres, cause you'd rather take them down from afar if you have the opportunity!

I have a friend who plays vampires, and prefer ghouls. That doesn't stop me from shooting at him, and those ghouls go down!


Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:25 am
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Nice to see an attempt on for a 8th edition Ogres tactica!!

However, I really really disagree with alot of your assesments:

Quote:
Dark Rider can be especially good against ogre, as they cannont be stomped, and are fast enough to "go around" and get a proper charge. A rear/side charge can do wonder against big unit of ogres.


What would a flank or especially a rear charge do other than get your dark riders killed? Sure, it could work occasionally against small ogre units, but as a general rule, I would say that dark riders are going nowhere near those ogre units. It is just suicide - even without stomp!

Quote:
I'd personally avoid using Crossbowman, as their damage would most likely not be impressive against T4 army.


I totally disagree. When shooting at large infantry units, the damage you do does not reduce their combat effectiveness until you reach the two front rows. This often makes RxBs not really worth it.
However, against ogres (who use mostly units in 2 rows) each ogre killed makes such a huge difference! 3 attacks less, 1 stomp less and lower bull charge strength. Every ogre you kill with shooting is GOLD once you have to fight them close up. I would say: Take 25-30 RxBs with a sorceress holding the guiding eye, and let the ogres feel the pain. (Combine with shadow magic for pure nastyness)

Quote:
Witch Elf, if they can survive up to close combat, can be devastating against Ogre, for the simple fact that they have poison. Small unit could be considered, to avoid attracting the wrath of the Scraplauncher.

Executioner. Their extra Strenght can be a blessing, but hitting after the Bulls could really decrease their attacks.

BlackGuard. Another obvious choice, they should too be kept small, or well protected.


Have you done the math here? Every infantry unit with T3 will get smacked to bits by ogres - even if they are only bulls!

A fully buffed unit of 20 BG should be able to go toe-to-toe with 8 bulls, but BOY it will cost them many casualties. All other types of dark elf infantry are going to get crushed by largish ogre units. Stomp attacks hurt T3 infantry like hell! Units of witches could be used to great effect to flank ogre units if one can manage that tactically. An executioner horde with a ASF banner death hag will tear through ogres like they are nothing ofcourse.
But apart from that: Going up against 8+ ogres with infantry is suicide!

Quote:
Cold One Knight are at risk against Ogres. Since everything will at least gives a -2 AS, they might die faster than hoped.


What are you talking about? Cold one Knights are perfect against ogres! They have high enough movement to get the charge, do great damage and do not suffer from stomp attacks. Try smacking 10 Cold one Knights into 8 ogre bulls. Result: COKs = 8-10 wounds, Bulls = 3-4 wounds. Knights win by around 5 +1 for charging = 6. Ogres do not have steadfast and must pass a break test on -6. Equals a unit of very dead ogres worth more than the knights you charged with. Imagine doing the same with +1 attack from the cauldron. Thats insane courage tests for the ogres.

In addition CoKs do not suffer as much from the scrap launcher, even with its killing blow, because they have larger bases and fewer models.

Quote:
Reaper Bolt thrower are better used in grapeshot, and should target the scraplauncher ASAP. They also must not think twice before turning around and gunning any Gorger incoming.

2 of each should do a pretty good job at dealing with the Ogres.


Since shooting at ogres pays of so well, I would say that Reaper bolt Throwers for once could be worth consideration. But I would proberbly just take more RxBs anyway...


Other good weapons against ogres:

12 Shades + rending star assassin = 2 dead ogres per turn.

Stubborn unkillable dreadlord can hold up anything. Chuck Norris can also do very well against ogres...

10ish Cold one Knights with a dreadlord or hydra banner BSB perhaps supported by a cauldron will smash ogres like they are nothing.


Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:16 am
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Hydras 2d6 breath attacks in close combat is likely to do more hits than using the teardrop template... This is ace against trolls, and any monstrous units, but ogres higher initiative might cause problems for the hydra.

Id also have thought witch elves would be the perfect unit against ogres, with stubborn from the cauldron and a large number of poisoned attacks against low armour targets. can exploit the inevitably larger frontage of ogre units (get minimum of 8 infantry elves into close combat)..
so you'd expect at least 32 attacks in an unbuffed 20 strong unit(with the right formation)... thats ~ 10 wounds against a T4 target.. nothing to be sniffed at.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:05 pm
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Auere wrote:
N
Quote:
Dark Rider can be especially good against ogre, as they cannont be stomped, and are fast enough to "go around" and get a proper charge. A rear/side charge can do wonder against big unit of ogres.


What would a flank or especially a rear charge do other than get your dark riders killed? Sure, it could work occasionally against small ogre units, but as a general rule, I would say that dark riders are going nowhere near those ogre units. It is just suicide - even without stomp!.


First mathammer....


Lets go really simple. 5 dark rider charge a unit of either 6 or 9 Bulls. (the unit is worth between 220 pts and 325 pts). Unit of dark rider (naked, not even a banner, just a musician) : 92 pts.


5 Dark Rider : hits on 3 rerollable. 5 hits (with hatred). Wounds on 4. 2.5 wounds
5 Mount : hits on 4. 2.5 hits. Wounds on 5. 1 wounds.

3-4 wounds + charge + side = 5-6 CR.

Ogres hits

if 2 on sides : hits on 4. 3 hits. wounds on 3 : 2 wounds. + Rank +Banner = 4 CR
if 3 on sides : hits on 4. 4.5 hits. wounds on 3 : 3 wounds + 2 Rank + Banner = 6 CR.

To make it evens, you could go with 10 DR, doing 7 wounds, and winning combat almost instantly.


VS Ironguts, sine they have 5+ Armor and S6, you'll actually NEED a unit of 10 to hope to break them. But the same unit would be worth 280 pts and 415 pts).

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Last edited by Enkiel on Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:04 pm
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21 Witch Elfs (Hag + Musician + Standard Bearer) 235 pts.
WS4 S3 E3

6 Bulls (Musician + Standard Bearer) 235 pts. Note that i'm leaving out Light Armor and Ironfist for now.

in frontage of 7.

29 attacks. hits on 3s.
5 6s.
10 rerolls
1 extra 6.
26 hits total - 6 poison : 20 hits remaining.
20 hits wounds on 5s. 6.6 wounds.

12 wounds total. if you faced a unit of 6, that's already 12 less attack back.

8 hits, hitting on 4s.
4 hits wounding on 3+
3 wounds.
2 stomp hitting on 3+.
2 wounds.

you lose 5, they lose 4 complete bull. winning combat by 7.


Againts a bigger unit, a lone unit of Witch Elves might be a risk, but then, you'd face a unit worth much more pts than your unit.

9 Bulls?

still 12 wounds, but they only lose 3 attacks.

15 hits. hitting on 4.
8 hits wounding on 3+
6 wounds.
3 stomp hitting on 3+
2 wounds.

you lose 8, they still lose 4 complete bull. Win combat by 4, while beating on a unit worth 115 pts more than your witch elves.







Against Ironguts.

6 IG : 290 pts.

you'll still do 12 wounds, but they'll save 4.

2 less attacking, so 4 IG fighting back.

12 attack hitting on 4+
6 hits wounding on 2+
5 wounds.
3 Stomp wounding on 3+
2 wounds.

8 wounds to 7. Still a win.

With a banner of AP, it would be even deadlier, which could/should be considered to nullify the little armor they have.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:14 pm
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Enkiel wrote:

5 Dark Rider : hits on 3 rerollable. 5 hits (with hatred). Wounds on 5. 3.33 wounds


I do my mathhammer on whole dice so:

hits=4-5 as you said.

wounds? assuming they charged (which you noted in CR calculations) they wound on a 4, because it is S3 elves+1S for spears against T4 ogres=2-3 wounds. off the charge they do wound on 5s, but 5 hits needing 5s=1.666... wounds or 1-2 wounds. Best case average you will get 3 wounds from the riders and one from the mount, but more often you will get 2 wounds from the riders and one from the mount. Nevertheless, DR will still win combat as they bring an ogre down and in return (assuming two ranks) with two ogres attacking they will deal roughly 2 wounds. DR should win combat by about 1 usually, but if the ogres don't break, you are in for a world of hurt.

without hatred or the charge, the ogres will combat reform, bringing three ogres to bear and supporting attacks from rear ranks, DR hit 3-4 times, wound 1-2 times, mounts get one wound, you might, if you are lucky, kill an ogre, but on average each ogre causes a wound so you will be looking at at least 3 wounds, if there are rear ranks then even more, DR no longer have flank or charge and are also dealing less wounds probably, so will get mushed.

On average, 2 DR deal 1-2 wounds in the first round of combat and ogres deal on average 1 wound in any round, DR cost about half as much as a bull so the economy of this battle is slightly in your favour, but if the ogre player has a general (and/or BSB) nearby the bulls have a good chance of staying put, if the DR don't break the ogres on the charge, they die. All in all, DR are good against ogres, but not great, and I for one prefer CoK.

Nice Ogre tactica summary, good work.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:59 pm
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you're right, i missed my calculation.

gotta keep in mind, you can't expect to win with DR alone, but you can tie them in combat, and hope to win on the charge.

If he reform to face you, that's not so bad

#1 : he wont be moving closer to your other killing unit (BG/WE).
#2 : he will either have to try to catch the DR/reform if he wins, or will be tied once again in combat.

either way, its a 90 pts unit that stopped a 200+ unit for 1 complete turn, allowing you to better set your charge, buff up your unit, or just try to purple sun them into oblivion.

An Ogre that isnt getting into close combat is an ogre that wont be winning game. And since fleeing unit, or half killed unit are not worth points anymore, if your darkrider fleed, you'll be able to rally them and hide them in a corner to avoid giving Ogre pts.

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:50 pm
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good points and one of the few times where I can see DRs being consistently very useful and economical

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Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:07 pm
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... and here comes the first 8th ed D.R.A.I.C.H. antitactica! :D

Thanks, Enkiel.

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Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:07 am
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Very good article, hope to more of these conserning other races aswell.
Played against OK in a tournament reasently and beat them even with incredably bad dice on my part. My hitting in cc was like below 10% and my corsairs and we was dying in drowes and loosing even with mindrazor on the witc elves and later on BG. BG with mindrazor + hydra charges his main unit does 0 wounds and rolls 10+11 on the rerollable brake test. But luckily magic was not that bad and I got Miasma on early to slow them down and in turn 3 The withering -D3T resulted in T1( T2 on heroes ) and then 100 arrows later from crossbows and shades - the game was over. Shadow magic + shooting is such an insanely good combination against them that if I was the OK player I would most likely just go for a beer instead.

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Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:11 am
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Repeater crossbowmen are AWESOME, If you can get a Withering on his T4/5 models you can wipe out a unit before they can even get in close combat.

(have done this on Chaos Chosen, hahhahhahha. That made my day!)


Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:19 pm
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jbtheslipperking wrote:
Very good article, hope to more of these conserning other races aswell.
Played against OK in a tournament reasently and beat them even with incredably bad dice on my part. My hitting in cc was like below 10% and my corsairs and we was dying in drowes and loosing even with mindrazor on the witc elves and later on BG. BG with mindrazor + hydra charges his main unit does 0 wounds and rolls 10+11 on the rerollable brake test. But luckily magic was not that bad and I got Miasma on early to slow them down and in turn 3 The withering -D3T resulted in T1( T2 on heroes ) and then 100 arrows later from crossbows and shades - the game was over. Shadow magic + shooting is such an insanely good combination against them that if I was the OK player I would most likely just go for a beer instead.
noted, and edited.


BTW, i decided to do a GW's FAQ Approach to my edit. New stuff will be posted in Purple, and the 2nd post will be the edit made on the first post.

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Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:36 pm
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