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Help with Fighting the Daemons ! 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:33 pm
Posts: 40
Location: wherever thelaptop is at the time
Greetings fellow Druchii. It has been over a year since my last posting, and a lot has changed in the game which we do not appear to have touched on yet. In particular, I am very interested to know what tactics to employ against the 8th ed Daemons of Chaos. I recently held the local Daemon-Master to a draw (the first time in 11 games that his Tournament army had not actually won!), but to be honest I think it was more luck than judgement-although naturally, being a Dark Elf I spun it like crazy!! He had Daemonettes, Bloodletters, plaguebearers, BSB, and flamers (which I hate with a passion), but in the end through good fortune managed to hold him to a standoff. But I know my opponent is itching for revenge and will no doubt be cooking up something suitably demonic. I know he has muttered about bring a juggernaut on in the next game. So what items should I take and what tactics should I employ? Due to work I have not played many games with the new Druchii book or WH8 rules, so I am at a bit of a disadvantage. CoK are pretty much out now, as are DR as far as I can see, though the COC still worked pretty well in combo with DL on Manticore.
So please suggest how I can REALLY hurt him by stopping him twice in a row!

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"A blade should not be so blunt that it does no harm, nor so sharp that it kills without pain".


Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:29 pm
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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Against a Daemon army which doesn't consist of a Bloodthirster is relatively 'easy' to defeat in my experiences so far. I know for a fact, that dark magic really helps. Black Horror will help downsize horrors to weaken their wizard level, Word of Pain allowed my unit of 16 Witch Elves to solo and defeat a horde of bloodletters with a herald on jugger. Chillwind will help you shut down those Flamers too if needed. But Word of Pain or Miasma are very useful and helpful against Bloodletters.

Magic aside, what you basically need, are WE and Corsairs to dish out a lot of attacks because they're just as soft as us. There's no real need for AP weapons since most of them have no AS anyway. A chariot or two is most definitely helpful, one can smash flamers and tie them up for a while, or could be used to provide hard cover for your squishy troops.

I wouldn't worry about Heralds on Juggers too much, they're annoying on first round due to hatred, but other than that, they'll do some damage, but unless you can bypass that tough AS of theirs, you're better off chopping Bloodletters for combat res. The sooner you pop them with instability checks, the
better, since they don't break from combat like VC.

I've yet to fight Plaguebearers, so I don't have suggestions for them, but I imagine the idea is still the same. Lots of attacks for a small frontage is the wins.

You'll want some Harpies and DRs to help you draw his units into where you want them for the devastating combined charges too. You'll want some missile troops to take out seekers and those rare choice units of theirs aside from Flamers. You want to be the one outflanking and surrounding his troops, not the other way around. If he manages to do that to you, you're in deeeeeeep trouble.

So Shades, Harpies, DRs, Frenzy Corsairs and WE are quite useful. CoB, Chariots and Dark Magic are good supporting choices. These are the ideas I've got, kinda just listing things that works from experience, and not giving much advice, but I'm kinda tired right now haha.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:31 pm
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Warrior
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 63
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The other trickster's shard should be amazing vs demons (reroll successful ward saves). The 2+ ward vs fire items on a fast unit/character can tie up flamers, or any tzeench unit really, for a long time.

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Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:34 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
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There are a few different approaches you're likely to see. Each of the Greater Daemons is pretty popular these days, though the Keeper of Secrets and Great Unclean One are probably the most popular. The Keeper re-rolls to hit on all its attacks, and has the option of regaining wounds with every wound it inflicts in melee. As a result, the Keeper is nearly impossible to take down once it gets into combat, especially if it's also supported by a Herald of Tzeentch with Lore of Life. The Great Unclean One, similarly, is massively durable so don't expect to kill them fast. Tarpit them as go for loads of Poisoned Witch Elf attacks, otherwise you won't have much luck of bringing them down. Engaging one or the other with an Unkillable Dreadlord will at least prevent them from doing many wounds while you grind them down, but there's still a chance that the Dreadlord will die. Eventually you'll fail enough Ward Saves with the Pendant of Khaeleth that you'll lose the character, so keep that in mind.

The regiments, as has been mentioned, are fragile to virtually every kind of direct damage. Repeater Crossbows or Witch Elves/Black Guard will make a good mess of Bloodletters, but expect some heavy casualties in return too. Definitely prioritize killing Heralds of any God; the benefits they bring are very strong, and their stat lines/abilities/gifts shouldn't be trifled with. Magic is, as always, very useful.

Against any Slaanesh-heavy force, with either a Keeper or Herald of Slaanesh, watch out for Siren Song which forces one of your units to charge the Slaanesh model or else flee. It's brutal for pulling your most important unit out of position, or making them flee off the table.

Also, as was mentioned by Deathpepper, resistance to Flaming Attacks is great against Daemons. A character on Pegasus with one of the 2+ Ward versus Flaming Attack items can shrug of Tzeentch magic, Flamer shooting, and all Tzeentch melee attacks with ease. This kind of character would be great for hunting down units of Flamers (who will also need a 5+ to hit a Master/Dreadlord in combat, btw, due to their poor Weapon Skill) or else tie up a big Horror unit and leaving you free to handle other threats.

Lastly, don't underestimate how resilient Daemons are in combat. Daemonic Instability virtually makes Daemons Unbreakable. Even winning a combat by a massive deficit, and watching the Daemons fail their break test, may only mean that the Daemons take a handful of casualties instead of being broken completely. Expect fights against Daemons to be long and grinding, especially if your opponent is taking large blocks of their Core troops.

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:13 am
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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If you want to try, you could use an Assassin with the Venom Sword against these said Greater Daemons. It had allowed me to get rid of a Keeper of Secrets without breaking a sweat, but the Assassin died in the process, and it required me to use Withering on it beforehand. It's a cheap and quick way to kill them in one combat round, if you do take Shadow Magic, maybe you could consider trying that.

Also keep in mind a character on a DP can be KB'd now, so don't go recklessly tieing up a Bloodletter unit with your supposedly stubborn unkillable lord.

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:50 am
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Shade
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:35 am
Posts: 113
Location: attacking Ulthuan
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Plague bearers are extremely tough and durable (even more so with a herald) and are the ultimate tarpit if fielded in a horde. To take them out you are going to need either high strength attacks or something without a strength value. Shadow magic can also be useful especially withering (Yay minus d3 toughness).

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:37 am
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Executioner

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 186
Post 
In my experience :
The Keeper can almost win the game on its own, be very aware of it.
Bloodletters are very nasty, huge units goes through annything.
Flamers ofc is a biatch if you let them go rampage

Chuck Norris - tie up the keeper for a while or to take out flamers.
Lv 4 + dagger, shaddow magic and lv 2 with death
The Whithering + shooting is very nice against Keeper and to whitle down BL
And as others have mentioned :
Witch Elfs and frenzied corsairs is very good against demons, itp and does lots of wounds and only S3 is not so important when no or low AS.
Charriots is nice, but only in synergi with SCR from a spear block.
COK is almost useless imo, gets eaten to fast
You also need some small units harpies and shades to sacrifice. You need to redirect his nasty units for a turn og two.

And yes, the other tricsters shard is ofc especially good against DOC.

Good luck

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Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:08 pm
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:33 pm
Posts: 40
Location: wherever thelaptop is at the time
First, thank you all for your advice on the forum. Alas, due to poor rolling and allowing myself to get suckered in the set up, I lost resoundingly. I responded to thr threat of three bloodcrushers and a horde of bloodletter with a Herald by fielding my hydras and chariot. Ultimately they were destroyed by the ridiculous strength of the khornate demon riders. My DP rider with Dragonhelm never got near the flamers (which were his original target) as he became embroiled in a conflict between my L2 sorceress and sacrificial unit and a unit of flesh hounds (I know, I know- they shouldn't have even been in the front line...). He also barbequed my Corsairs with his Flamers, so that they were only 14 models strong when they finally got into battle with the flamers, and still ended up worse even with Frenzy and 3 attacks each. I think what really hurt was the apalling magic rolls, since I was banking on my L3 Supreme sorc (gen) and L2 sorceress actually making life difficult. Added to this my opponent was running Lore of Life, and took every opportunity to cast Flesh to Stone, so I was trying to wound T8 units. Needless to say my dispels were useless. In short, I set up defensively (not a good idea), placed my magic users in the line of fire, and failed to do any real damage either through magic or physical attacks. It was all over by turn 4.

_________________
"A blade should not be so blunt that it does no harm, nor so sharp that it kills without pain".


Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:23 am
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Executioner
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:57 am
Posts: 1956
Location: Hell
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Takes practice :)

Once you know your foe better, you can anticipate and respond accordingly. Things like a horde of 40 Bloodletters with a 1+ AS Herald on Jugg plus 40 Horrors with a Lv2 Life & Death loremaster heralds led by a Keeper of Secrets becomes less daunting.

What was in your army list? What lores of magic did you take?

_________________
What's mine is mine, What's yours is mine.
Now that we understand each other, lets get down to business.

Jacks -Shade
- WS 5 - - S 3 - - T 2 - - D 6 - - I 5 -

Equipment
Short Sword, MC Long Sword*, Dagger, RxB & RHB [20/10] MC Shade Cloak, 4 Throwing Daggers, 3x Healing Vials, 451C, [3]Dark Venom, [4]Unseen Chains, Food, Dark Steed- Spike

Skills
Basic Stealth, Awareness, TWF, Suithenlu Khythan, Ride

Magic Item
Eye of the Jabberwock

*Magical properties possibly imbued


Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:40 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:54 am
Posts: 1444
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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Make no mistake, Daemons are nasty. Just as Meteor said, it takes practice, as well as a strong knowledge of the enemies capabilities and how best to stack your own units to face them. Magic is good and all, but I always lean on my combat units to be the ones who solve problems and earn Victory Points. Next time you'll be more prepared, I would be curious to see your list as well as your opponent's.

_________________
There is no escape from Chaos. It marks us all.


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Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:12 pm
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